Moderator: Vympel
Clearly, you have not thought too hard about the word "Stormtroopers". It's a perfectly justified piece of speculation, in light of the behind-the-scenes knowledge of how the concept of the Empire came into being.Lord Pounder wrote:I think it's a really stupid and unimaginative idea to model the Empire on the Third Reich. Sure there have always been similarities but really people, Palpatine Youth?
[i]The Imperial Sourcebook[/i], Chapter Two: COMPNOR wrote:COMPNOR, the Commission for the Preservation of the New Order, was formed in Imperial City months after Palpatine assumed power. Initially COMPNOR was little more than a social gathering for idealistic young beings who saw in the New Order a deliverance from the chaos of the dying days of the Old Republic.
One of the Emperor's advisors, one Crueya Vandron, saw the potential worth of a populist movement which could be molded into a useful political tool. Overt encouragement and discrete funding were provided, giving COMPNOR the appearance of a spontaneous organization enjoying phenomenal growth.
Crueya Vandron gave COMPNOR the resources to grow, but the Emperor took a hand in the shaping of the organization. His methods were patient, defeating his opponents within COMPNOR not through violence or threats, but with a hidden, gentle, consistent pressure which wore the opposition down. Those who opposed the change in COMPNOR never even knew the Emperor had done anything to instigate the changes. Most could not even explain how the nature of their organization differed from what they had envisioned.
Key members of the group were approved for the Select Committee, that part of COMPNOR that would oversee the rest of the organization, with implicit approval of the Emperor. Then the changes became more sweeping. The Emperor's peculiar genius was again demonstrated - he had succeeded in having his enemies unknowingly choose exactly the course of action he desired them to choose.
COMPNOR is no longer an innocuous social club. It has become a powerful tool for the New Order. COMPNOR actively attempts to build the ethic of the New Order into the life of the average galactic citizen. COMPNOR is also recruiting young beings in huge numbers in order to assure that future citizens will consider the Old Republic a relic of the past, committing their lives totally to the New Order.
[i]The Imperial Sourcebook[/i], Chapter Two: COMPNOR wrote:Sub-Adult Group (SAGroup)
SAGroup is a contraction for Sub-Adult Group. SAGroup is the largest branch of COMPNOR. SAGroup has recently exceeded two trillion members, and it is still growing. SAGroup headquarters most resembles the original COMPNOR, an enthusiastic group who firmly believes the New Order is the best regime for the galaxy.
Other branches of COMPNOR often recruit from SAGroup, but most other communication with the other branches is carefully screened by the Internal Affairs division of the Imperial Security Bureau (ISB). SAGroup is intentionally kept ignorant of most of the darker aspects of the Empire.
Those assigned to SAGroup headquarters (SAGroupHQ) coordinate all of the communications for the divisions under them. They do the job but not very efficiently. There is a tradition of mishandled communications which are passed along as folklore to new members of SAGroup.
SAGEducation (SAGEd)
The program which gained COMPNOR a positive reputation on thousands of worlds, SAGEducation succeeds in bringing learning to billions of young beings who had fallen into the cracks during the breakup of the Old Republic.
It is largely unaffected by the changes in the rest of the organization, and continues to be popular on almost every world served by SAGroups.
The personnel of SAGEducation are as dedicated as those in SAGroupHQ, but they are better organized. They believe in the future of the New Order, and they believe in teaching their charges to become as well educated as they can in order to be better galactic citizens. Many of the educators have been surprised that this attitude has caused the occasional confrontation with the ISB. The continued popularity of SAGEducation has moderated the ISB reaction, but some of the educators are emboldened to surreptitiously question the New Order. The ISB will no doubt respond. . .
SAGRecreation (SAGRec)
SAGRecreation was created to provide wholesome activities for member beings. Wegsphere is their one real triumph, a competitive sport which has caught on in thousands of systems. Everything else suggested by SAGroupHQ is often ignored by the SAGRec personnel.
Some branches of SAGRec have been filled with future CompForce hopefuls. These SAGRecs engage in harsh physical training and wargames as an introduction to military training. Some have been reputed to hold exercises with blasters, casually ignoring the removal of the stunsafes which prevent lethal fire.
Motivation
Some of the SAGroup members fail to live up to the ideals of the New Order. If such behavior is persistent, they are sent here to learn how to become useful citizens supportive of the New Order. The reported success rate of the motivation section at reforming recalcitrant SAGroupers is nearly a five-fold exaggeration. The Motivation section's reputation for making sure no troublemakers are released before their compliance with the New Order is assuredly not an exaggeration.
Recruitment
This group is gently wriggling from the control of SAGroupHQ, goaded by support from the ISB. Their activities are at an all-time high, sometimes offering impressive incentives to parents to have their offspring join SAGroup. The goals over the next five standard years is to have membership in SAGroup swell to 10 trillion.
i recall seeing interviews/clips/etc. that Lucas modeled the old republic after the roman empire. Considering that it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to portray the Empire as the Nazis, even though portraying such empires as them is a bit overdone in sci-fi.Howedar wrote:There are definately similarities, and the Empire certainly has facets of it modeled on Nazi Germany, but the picture of black and white Imperial roundels on red banners, with a bratty little Aryan kid spewing nonsense, sorry that's a little much.
It is in-continuity from the COMPNOR's Sub-Adult Group.Howedar wrote:There are definately similarities, and the Empire certainly has facets of it modeled on Nazi Germany, but the picture of black and white Imperial roundels on red banners, with a bratty little Aryan kid spewing nonsense, sorry that's a little much.
Not quite, the political aspects of the Rise of Palpatine and his empire are based largely on the Fall of the Roman Republic and the subsequent rise of the Roman Empire. In particular it appears to be based on Gauis Marius, Sulla, and Gauis Julius Casear Dictator (or rather the popular conception of Casear anyway). That's solely for the politcal aspects and the military only so far as they apply to the political balance of power. Publius and I had actually had a rather interesting on the parallels a while back.Darth_Zod wrote:i recall seeing interviews/clips/etc. that Lucas modeled the old republic after the roman empire. Considering that it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to portray the Empire as the Nazis, even though portraying such empires as them is a bit overdone in sci-fi.Howedar wrote:There are definately similarities, and the Empire certainly has facets of it modeled on Nazi Germany, but the picture of black and white Imperial roundels on red banners, with a bratty little Aryan kid spewing nonsense, sorry that's a little much.
Who do you equate Marius and Sulla to?Stormbringer wrote:
Not quite, the political aspects of the Rise of Palpatine and his empire are based largely on the Fall of the Roman Republic and the subsequent rise of the Roman Empire. In particular it appears to be based on Gauis Marius, Sulla, and Gauis Julius Casear Dictator (or rather the popular conception of Casear anyway).
Well, George Lucas has said that he's based them off the Nazis so like it or not they are a big source. However, a lot of the elements of the Empire can be found in any totalitarian state. I mean secret police, military build ups, and a casual attitude regarding violence towards dissenters are all common.Stark wrote:I think similarities are overdone. The Nazis are a common comparison for any dictatorship, but the Empire by the time of ANH wasn't afraid of enemies within and without, so it's not surprising they weren't particularly beligerant or purge-mad.
Hello? Obliterating Alderaan isn't oppressing or purging anyone?Stark wrote: Lets be honest; the movies don't show the Empire oppressing anyone, purging anyone, just fighting off dangerous terrorists. Tarkin was a bit nasty, and the Emperor was into power, but the overdone Evil Nazi Empire is just lame. There are a million nasty regimes they could be compared to.
Palpatine. As I said, Palpatine has elements of all three that went into creating the character.Vympel wrote:Who do you equate Marius and Sulla to?Stormbringer wrote:
Not quite, the political aspects of the Rise of Palpatine and his empire are based largely on the Fall of the Roman Republic and the subsequent rise of the Roman Empire. In particular it appears to be based on Gauis Marius, Sulla, and Gauis Julius Casear Dictator (or rather the popular conception of Casear anyway).
One might disagree with the inclusion of Gaius Marius, whose political ineptitude, naked ambition and lust for distinction are completely atypical of the character of Palpatine; Marius's consulates were entirely the result of his superior generalship, and the Republic's need for a field commander of ability. An examination of Marius's character and career show him a relatively poor match for His Imperial Majesty the Galactic Emperor.Stormbringer wrote:Palpatine. As I said, Palpatine has elements of all three that went into creating the character.Vympel wrote:Who do you equate Marius and Sulla to?Stormbringer wrote:
Not quite, the political aspects of the Rise of Palpatine and his empire are based largely on the Fall of the Roman Republic and the subsequent rise of the Roman Empire. In particular it appears to be based on Gauis Marius, Sulla, and Gauis Julius Casear Dictator (or rather the popular conception of Casear anyway).
Palpatine is hardly a populist leader; unless we know what he's done between the end of the Clone Wars (and his elimination of the wildly rights-violating Jedi) and the construction of the Death Star, we can hardly judge.Stormbringer wrote:Well, George Lucas has said that he's based them off the Nazis so like it or not they are a big source. However, a lot of the elements of the Empire can be found in any totalitarian state. I mean secret police, military build ups, and a casual attitude regarding violence towards dissenters are all common.Stark wrote:I think similarities are overdone. The Nazis are a common comparison for any dictatorship, but the Empire by the time of ANH wasn't afraid of enemies within and without, so it's not surprising they weren't particularly beligerant or purge-mad.
LoL How do you feel about blowing up mosques full of 'terrorists'? They *were* arming the rebels, you know. But this is all OT; the empire committed atriocities (ie Alderaan), and went the way of military governors, but is hardly 'nazi'. We hardly need another 'the empire was evil! no it wasn't!' discussion. I can't really comment anyway, I guess, since I can't bring myself to read crap books so I know nothing of the EU.Stormbringer wrote:Hello? Obliterating Alderaan isn't oppressing or purging anyone?Stark wrote: Lets be honest; the movies don't show the Empire oppressing anyone, purging anyone, just fighting off dangerous terrorists. Tarkin was a bit nasty, and the Emperor was into power, but the overdone Evil Nazi Empire is just lame. There are a million nasty regimes they could be compared to.
No one's calling the Empire space Nazis. The point of it is the Nazi Regime is a major source of material upon which the Galatic Empire was based. Similarities that have been pointed out time and again. It's as simple as that.Palpatine is hardly a populist leader; unless we know what he's done between the end of the Clone Wars (and his elimination of the wildly rights-violating Jedi) and the construction of the Death Star, we can hardly judge.
However, my point is that calling them Nazis is tiresome when they're simply nasty. There are plenty of nasty regimes in the world. Is any secret police really secret? People knew about the Gestapo, and on 'treason' charges any country can detain someone indefinatly, particularly these days. And they're not building up the military, they're 'maintaining readiness'
LoL How do you feel about blowing up mosques full of 'terrorists'? They *were* arming the rebels, you know.
Actually, the Nazi elements have been well documented. Like it or not.But this is all OT; the empire committed atriocities (ie Alderaan), and went the way of military governors, but is hardly 'nazi'. We hardly need another 'the empire was evil! no it wasn't!' discussion. I can't really comment anyway, I guess, since I can't bring myself to read crap books so I know nothing of the EU.
The EU actually has shown this. As Publius pointed out to me, while Palpatine is essentially a dictator since the Emergency Powers Act, he still passes war measures through the Senate.RedImperator wrote:Now that you mention Augustus, I hope Palpatine DOES make a show of trying to give his powers back, and the Senate refuses to take them. I've really gotten tired of "uber-Sith Lord Palpatine tricked EVERYBODY!" That's not how democracies turn into dictatorships in real life, and it would be nice if Lucas would at least allow the Senate to be a little bit culpable here. Beyond just being dupes, I mean.
Oh my...Oberleutnant wrote:I was browsing TheForce.net when I came across to a link which led me to JoeCorroney.com. As you may know, he is a guy who does art for Star Wars Insider (among other things) and there are plenty of examples of his work on his site.
This pic really got my attention.
With the exception of Clone Wars, I really haven't followed Star Wars EU lately, so what kind organisation "Republic Youth Brigade" is? Palpatine's own Hitler Jugend? Looks like Galactic Empire is only a few years away.
Cool pic with Clonetroopers, AT-ATs and other equipment...
