SW Fighters v. Trek Caps: Room For Heavy Warheads?

[Illuminatus Primus]

I've noticed a lot of suggestions about TIE Defenders being able to slaughter Trek capital ships, but I question whether they can carry heavy warheads such as heavy rockets and space bombs. They don't appear to have room in the cockpit to mount anything except extraatmospheric anti-fighter concussion missiles.

I believe a comparison with Imperial Assault Gunboats, Missile Boats, or Skipray Blastboats would be more apropriate. All of your thoughts?

[Mr Bean]

Its the old Trade Off, The Only Diffrence between a Anti-Fighter Torp and an Anti-Ship Torp is gudiance and Power

One does not need 20 Gigaton Warheads to kill TIE Fighters, A 20 Megaton will do it quite fine and get some of its friends as well or server as excellent anti-emplacement style-weaponry

Also in a Heavyer Anti-Cap ship weapon one can strip all the Anti ECM, All the Gudiance packages and what-not and simply let the Fighters try and hit a 1KM Long Target and in that extra space pack explosives


It seems to be a trade off, Higher Power-> Less accurate

At least in the same sized missle body

[Illuminatus Primus]

We can visably see that space bombs and heavy rockets are physically larger then proton torps or concussion missiles. There's not much reason an agile interceptor/strike craft like the TIE Defender would be built optimized to carry heavier warheads

[Mr Bean]

We can visably see that space bombs and heavy rockets are physically larger then proton torps or concussion missiles. There's not much reason an agile interceptor/strike craft like the TIE Defender would be built optimized to carry heavier warheads

X-Wing Allance is Not Cannon

[Howedar]

But the mere existance of TIE Bombers would suggest that said weapons are larger than standard. If all of that volume is for number of missiles, then Defenders wouldn't bother to carry them (you'd need an ungodly number of Defenders to make a difference). If the volume is for missile size, the Defenders couldn't carry them. Either way, we have a bit of a dilemma.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Gamer #6 statement makes everything short of Infinities (including SW Tales) canon. Sansweet's quote establishes movies as "absolute canon," which basically means that the movies override everything else, but the novelizations/scripts/comics fill in those stories between scenes, and the rest of the canon is to be interpreted when contradictions are percieved. Additional statements by editors in Gamer suggest games ARE canon/continuity except for game mechanics (ie. stats and skill descriptions in RPGs, abitrary speed counters and shield strengths in X Wing Games). Therefore, space bombs and heavy rockets certainly exist, and are refered to in the storyline retelling of one Emperor's Hand Mareek Steele, the Imperial pilot protagonist of the TIE Fighter computer game (and thus not poluted by supposed New Republic propaganda ).

Taken holistically, warheads appears as follows.

Concussion missiles: Specialized anti-fighter, anti-corvette/frieghter size missiles, and generic anti-ground missiles that specialize in anti-personnel atmospheric shock wave generation (hence the name concussion missiles) that are also occasionally used against fighters and light freighters, etc.

Proton Torpedoes: Used in anti-fighter (like Anakin's torpedoes in the Trade Fed ship) and anti-capital ship (but not really affective against larger threats like SDs except in the hundreds and hundreds) models. Some use against ground targets. "Advanced" torpedoes likely higher yield weapons. Highly expensive focused "proton-scattering" explosive devices. Likely associated with proton grenades and proton bombs. Highly miniturized model used by Spacetroopers.

Heavy Rockets: Relatively slow high-yield weapons used for assaulting civilian space stations, frigates, and the like. Likely not used in atmosphere to avoid collateral damage from atmospheric affects.

Space Bombs: High yield slow warheads with no energy sheath used to batter slow-moving or stationary capital ships (even SDs if stripped of shields) and space stations. Ditto as Heavy Rockets when it comes to atomsphere use.

It is likely that space bomb and heavy rocket production is highly controlled by the Empire and New Republic, and Antilles while ambushing the Lusankya had access only to advanced high-yield proton torpedoes, and and beefed-up heavy concussion missiles. The "ion pulse" and "mag pulse" warheads are likely experimental and mostly novelty items. Stories are never retold containing them. So canonicity is severely limited.

Note: Descriptions in the Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels state that Ulic-Qel Droma's courier could carry fewer of the "high-yield" proton torpedoes as opposed to "standard" proton torpedoes in its warhead bay. This suggests higher yield = greater weight/great weapon volume.

[Darth Wong]

AOTC proves that high-yield warheads can be extremely small, no matter what the X-Wing games say.

[Jim Raynor]

Gamer #6 statement makes everything short of Infinities (including SW Tales) canon. Sansweet's quote establishes movies as "absolute canon," which basically means that the movies override everything else, but the novelizations/scripts/comics fill in those stories between scenes, and the rest of the canon is to be interpreted when contradictions are percieved. Additional statements by editors in Gamer suggest games ARE canon/continuity except for game mechanics (ie. stats and skill descriptions in RPGs, abitrary speed counters and shield strengths in X Wing Games). Therefore, space bombs and heavy rockets certainly exist, and are refered to in the storyline retelling of one Emperor's Hand Mareek Steele, the Imperial pilot protagonist of the TIE Fighter computer game (and thus not poluted by supposed New Republic propaganda ).

Taken holistically, warheads appears as follows.

Concussion missiles: Specialized anti-fighter, anti-corvette/frieghter size missiles, and generic anti-ground missiles that specialize in anti-personnel atmospheric shock wave generation (hence the name concussion missiles) that are also occasionally used against fighters and light freighters, etc.

Proton Torpedoes: Used in anti-fighter (like Anakin's torpedoes in the Trade Fed ship) and anti-capital ship (but not really affective against larger threats like SDs except in the hundreds and hundreds) models. Some use against ground targets. "Advanced" torpedoes likely higher yield weapons. Highly expensive focused "proton-scattering" explosive devices. Likely associated with proton grenades and proton bombs. Highly miniturized model used by Spacetroopers.

Heavy Rockets: Relatively slow high-yield weapons used for assaulting civilian space stations, frigates, and the like. Likely not used in atmosphere to avoid collateral damage from atmospheric affects.

Space Bombs: High yield slow warheads with no energy sheath used to batter slow-moving or stationary capital ships (even SDs if stripped of shields) and space stations. Ditto as Heavy Rockets when it comes to atomsphere use.

It is likely that space bomb and heavy rocket production is highly controlled by the Empire and New Republic, and Antilles while ambushing the Lusankya had access only to advanced high-yield proton torpedoes, and and beefed-up heavy concussion missiles. The "ion pulse" and "mag pulse" warheads are likely experimental and mostly novelty items. Stories are never retold containing them. So canonicity is severely limited.

Note: Descriptions in the Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels state that Ulic-Qel Droma's courier could carry fewer of the "high-yield" proton torpedoes as opposed to "standard" proton torpedoes in its warhead bay. This suggests higher yield = greater weight/great weapon volume.

The games are also extremely simplistic in its classifications of weapons. Each of the 4 basic weapon types take a place on a scale ranging from weak, agile anti-fighter weapon to slow, anti-capship weapon, when in fact weapons are classified by their properties. For example, concussion missiles are specially designed for armor piercing. There is evidence of concussion missiles far more powerful than proton torpedos, such as the 190 megaton missiles on the Slave I and the missiles Lando used on the DS2. Compare this to the piddly 1.5 megaton torpedos used by Luke on the first DS. There can be great differences between weapons of the same general type, and those "heavy rockets" could just be high yield proton torpedos.

[Jim Raynor]

Oops, meant to say 1.5 kilotons. Damn those torps were weak.

[seanrobertson]

I've noticed a lot of suggestions about TIE Defenders being able to slaughter Trek capital ships, but I question whether they can carry heavy warheads such as heavy rockets and space bombs. They don't appear to have room in the cockpit to mount anything except extraatmospheric anti-fighter concussion missiles.

I believe a comparison with Imperial Assault Gunboats, Missile Boats, or Skipray Blastboats would be more apropriate. All of your thoughts?

Lord Michael is correct: the missiles needn't be very large to
be extremely powerful. Of course, that is a modified patrol
craft, somewhat larger than the standard fighters.

Still, the appropriate TIE models should be able to carry
a devastating load. I'm not especially fond of the idea
that a single missile or protorp-carrying fighter could whip,
say, a Sovereign, but is it possible? IMO, yes.
I don't think a Defender can probably carry missiles
or torpedos larger than the ones used by Jango Fett,
but that shouldn't be necessary anyhow: with a single
missile capable of a directed 191 megaton blast--hell,
a quarter of that--a Federation starship will be in extreme
danger. But then, I subscribe to a somewhat middle of
the road estimate of Federation shield strength against
such things...

You might talk to Adam Gerhls (Connor MacLeod) and Publius
about the likely size of warheads on TIE models. And be
sure to read Dr. Curt's site religiously His catalogue of TIE
models is very good.

[Vendetta]

X-Wing Allance is Not Cannon

Game contents have a habit of creeping into canon though.

Hence the TIE Defender.

[Connor MacLeod]

We can visably see that space bombs and heavy rockets are physically larger then proton torps or concussion missiles. There's not much reason an agile interceptor/strike craft like the TIE Defender would be built optimized to carry heavier warheads

you do realize that the fighter's internal space is limited? Typically the bigger the missile, the fewer it can carry. IIRC the TIE/D can carry only a handful of the larger warheads.

I would be interested in your source for "where we can visibly see that the warheads are bigger" and by exactly how much, though.

ITs also possible the TIE/D's loadout is specialized to be more compact than what is available to a standard craft (they are "elite" fighters after all.) - the heavy warheads they carry may be smaller than what most fighters carry.

[Connor MacLeod]

AOTC proves that high-yield warheads can be extremely small, no matter what the X-Wing games say.

You mean the Slave-1 Concussion missiles? Those are over a meter long. X-wing protorps are smaller than an adult Male's head (IIRC) - even if thats an exaggeration, fighter protorps (probably anti fighter or maybe ground attack) are FAR smaller than Slave-1's missiles (or the Republic Gunships, for that matter, which IIRC are also around a meter long.)

The Falcon's missiles are actually more comparable in size to Slave-1's.

[Connor MacLeod]

Oops, meant to say 1.5 kilotons. Damn those torps were weak.

We aren't certain of the exact yield of the torps Luke used. The 1.5 MT figure from Edam's BTM derivations is questionable.

[Connor MacLeod]

We can visably see that space bombs and heavy rockets are physically larger then proton torps or concussion missiles. There's not much reason an agile interceptor/strike craft like the TIE Defender would be built optimized to carry heavier warheads

X-Wing Allance is Not Cannon

All of the EU is not canon. This is irrelevant to the discussion.

[Connor MacLeod]

We should also point out that fighter warheads can differ according to "Design" a warhead designed for greater offensive punch can give up precision guidance systems and high-powered engines (for mobility) it would need to intercept a fighter in favor of more raw destructive yield against capital ships. The ARakyd missiles on the Falcon are equal in power to a proton torpedo, and those missiles are of the same dimensions as the ones Slave-1 used in AotC.

It should be noted that TIE/Ds may not be able to really carry shipkiller warheads (perhaps they can, I don't know) but they AREN'T dedicated bombers/capital ship attack craft anymore than X-wings are. CApital ship killing duties are assigned to dedicated craft (Skipray blastboats, B-wings, maybe even Assault Gunboats and TIE bombers and Y-wings if neccesary.) Its possible that TIE/D's, like X-wings, can take out smaller ships with the right loadout (like we see in the X-wing novels), but its rare for them to carry true shipkillers.

To note the distinction between B-wings and somethjing like a TIE-Defender, note that the SWTJ credits the B-wing with "more raw firepower than some corvettes". While this is hardly specific, it indicates that its firepower is tremendous for it size, allowing it to inflict damage of a scale comparable to a Corvette. (The trade off probably comes in the fact that nearly all of this "firepower" is in its warheads, of which it can carry only a limited number, whereas Corvettes typically carry turbolasers which can fire MANY shots.) Even then, we must note that B-wings were meant to attack escorts and support ships alone, or to supplement Rebel capital ships in engagements against Imperial warships (presumably to help offset the firepower discrepancy between Imperial and Rebel ships). No dedicated capital ships like ISD's are ever attacked and destroyed even in the EU without capital ship support.

The whole issue with Trek ships vs SW fighters is not abotu whether or not fighters like Defenders can carry shipkiller warheads, its the sheer magnitude of the difference in firepower. Even if a proton torpedo is megaton range (~200 megatons, or similar in yield to a slave-1 missile) that should be more than enough to harm most Trek ships, as I've understood it. What is a likely to be ineffectual against a big ship (unless mass-launched in tremendous numbers) in SW appears to be quite capable of damaging Federation and comparable vessels.

[Mr Bean]

All of the EU is not canon. This is irrelevant to the discussion.

He based His Visual Scalling off of the game X-Wing Allance, Which is not Cannon, Not Offical not anything

It does not even have WEG level of offciality

[Darth Wong]

AOTC proves that high-yield warheads can be extremely small, no matter what the X-Wing games say.

You mean the Slave-1 Concussion missiles? Those are over a meter long.

The seismic charges are fairly compact; all they need is a propulsion system, and you don't need much of a propulsion system when you're aiming at a huge capital ship. You could almost fly toward the ship and just release the thing, like a WW2-era dive bomber.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Yes, but the overall basis is apparently that TIE Defenders are not likely deployed with heavy warheads, and while they are capable intercepter and strike craft, they're not heavy bombers and I think that their constant reference in combat with ST capital ships is probably due to people just percieving the TIE/D as very cool.

I much better choice of ship for these arguments was the limited-production, experimental heavy anti-capital ship fighter known as the Missile Boat, which could carry the heaviest warheads in abundance, had thick shields, and could funnel energy from the ship's single laser cannon into the drive system to achieve speed in excess of that of the TIE/D or the A-Wing. And its development was supervised and ordered at the behest of Grand Admiral Thrawn.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The seismic charges were just short of a meter long and a third of a meter thick. Look at the laser cannon ports on a TIE Fighter. Look at the space under the cockpit in the cutaway views in sourcebooks. Use the views inside the cockpit from the movies. There's barely any room for one missile version of a charge, and it'd mean a complete redesign of that area.

[consequences]

Tie defenders don't need to carry heavy weapons usually, that's what Scimitar assault bombers are for.
Am I the only one incredibly irked by the new Star Wars RPG's starship combat scaling? They have written it so that the sort of crap we see in the computer games is actually possible, I shit you not. Say what you will against West End Games, but their advanced scaling rules in the Rpg meant that you had to fire something like a couple of thousand fighter proton torpedos to bring an ISD shields down, and a minimum of hundreds more to destroy it.

[Connor MacLeod]

All of the EU is not canon. This is irrelevant to the discussion.

He based His Visual Scalling off of the game X-Wing Allance, Which is not Cannon, Not Offical not anything

It does not even have WEG level of offciality

He never indicated where he derived visual scaling of such missiles. Thus far you have assumed he not only derived it from X-wing Alliance, but that he derived it from visual scaling of the in-game. He could just as well have made comparisons from the TIE Fighter game (which ironically INTRODUCED the goddamn TIE Defender) which did have visuals OF the missiles prior to launch (you determined your warhead loadout and beam weapon loadout when you could decide.) Stop jumping to fucking conclusions.

And I am getting tired of explaining this to people: THERE IS NO FUCKING "HIERARCHY" OF OFFICAL SOURCES. There is canon and EU, with the only distinction being made for the movie-based novelizations and radio dramas. Therefore any selective dismissal of an EU source on the basis of "higher" EU sources is invalid.

Secondly, you can't bury your head in the sand and hope the bad man goes away. I have not nor ever heard of any explicit dismissal of any aspect of games as a source, except by selective fan consensus. Unless you can provide proof that the games are totally inadmissable rather than subordinate to canon and equivalent to other EU sources, try developing a REAL argument.

[Connor MacLeod]

AOTC proves that high-yield warheads can be extremely small, no matter what the X-Wing games say.

You mean the Slave-1 Concussion missiles? Those are over a meter long.

The seismic charges are fairly compact; all they need is a propulsion system, and you don't need much of a propulsion system when you're aiming at a huge capital ship. You could almost fly toward the ship and just release the thing, like a WW2-era dive bomber.

Eh, I dont know if they're all that compact. I just checked the ICS, and unless the art was screwed up, they look nearly as large, if not larger, than the concussion missiles. IIRC from the movie, we saw them deployed from Slave-1's rear as well, and they looked fairly large relative to the ship as well.

Still, what you describe is alot like the space bombs, or a related weapon. Maybe they're related to seismic charges (IIRC they're "concussion bombs", and the seismic charges were pulled from a naval mine launcher.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Yes, but the overall basis is apparently that TIE Defenders are not likely deployed with heavy warheads, and while they are capable intercepter and strike craft, they're not heavy bombers and I think that their constant reference in combat with ST capital ships is probably due to people just percieving the TIE/D as very cool.

Doesn't matter if they have heavy warheads or not, or whether or not they're heavy bombers. The megaton range missiles would be more than sufficient against most ST opponents. However, given your repeated use of the games, they CAN carry the heavier weapons in limited numbers (they can't carry as many as other ships. The fact YOU feel the scaling may be inconsistent is insufficient proof - you are overridden by the very source you are citing (and if it DOES require something like more compact warheads than what other ships carry, so be it.)

e
I much better choice of ship for these arguments was the limited-production, experimental heavy anti-capital ship fighter known as the Missile Boat, which could carry the heaviest warheads in abundance, had thick shields, and could funnel energy from the ship's single laser cannon into the drive system to achieve speed in excess of that of the TIE/D or the A-Wing. And its development was supervised and ordered at the behest of Grand Admiral Thrawn.

The missile boat was designed to counter the TIE-Defender. Any anti-cap ship duty is purely secondary.

[Connor MacLeod]

The seismic charges were just short of a meter long and a third of a meter thick. Look at the laser cannon ports on a TIE Fighter. Look at the space under the cockpit in the cutaway views in sourcebooks. Use the views inside the cockpit from the movies. There's barely any room for one missile version of a charge, and it'd mean a complete redesign of that area.

Or a more compact version. You seem ready to cite the flight sims when it suits your purposes, yet you neglect to consider OTHER aspects which directly contradict your claims.

Face it, TIE/Ds CAN be outfitted to carry heavier warheads, but it requires they sometimes make sacrifices to internal space which results in them carrying fewer warheads.