World reaction to Israel's assassination

[Illuminatus Primus]

This is simply a way of restating the religious bigotry appeal. Concession Accepted.

Eat me.

Don't start spewing with substance now.

You're the one who simply changed "move there because of religious appeals" to "move there because there are already some religious and ethnic brethren there which moved there because of religious appeals."

Don't say dumbshit if you don't want it criticized.

That was the situation in 1948, moron; if I had been in charge of the U.S. government in 1948 I would have been glad to accept such an alternative. But at that time, America would not have accepted such a proposal.

You don't get the fucking point. You want to get all practical and stuff while we're talking about ideal solutions, well then for starters you should say ludicrous shit like "the Saudis should take it upon themselves to alleviate Israel of responsibility for their aggressive expansionist, racial apartheid, and ethnic cleansing practices as a Ramadan gift." Fuckmook.

[Darth Wong]

There were millions of Jews who had lived in Germany and surrounding states for a very long time. But nooooo, we have to take the land from the Palestinians, don't we?

Most of the land that was given to Israel belonged to the mandatory government; around a sixth of it belonged to Palestinians, but hey, they made war on Israel and they lost.

Wow, the "might makes right" theorem of moral justifications

Of course, that solution only works for Saudi Arabia

Saudi Arabia doesn't have to be the only one in on it, there are other Arab countries. I wouldn't have a problem with the U.S. helping foot the bill for such a relocation, either.

The only country in that list which bears direct responsibility for Israel is America, since none of those other states supported the creation of Israel in the first place, nor did they funnel billions of dollars per year into its military forces.

[Darth Wong]

No, Israel's creation was unique, I'll grant you that. What I disagree with you on is that there is a problem with the way Israel exists, that Palestine should be a state, or that we should do anything less than support Israel.

Ah, so the best response to injustice is to praise it and allow it to continue? Gotcha

I'm talking about when Iran was called Persia and it was invaded by muslims who then forced their religion on it.

Irrelevant ancient history in which all of the participants are long dead. One might as well speak of restoring Roman territory.

Bullshit. No nation in that part of the world has been a greater destabilizing influence than Israel.

Iraq and Iran used to give it quite the run for its money if you ask me.

Which is why the members of the UN voted to slap Iraq down, if you recall. Yet you insist that Israel should be supported.

So because I made you angry at some point more so than most other Christians I must be an imbecile?

No, it's because your arguments are moronic. No one disagreed with your labelling, moron. Didn't you ever wonder why?

[Joe]

Wow, the "might makes right" theorem of moral justifications

They were already gone when Israel took the land, anyway.

The only country in that list which bears direct responsibility for Israel is America, since none of those other states supported the creation of Israel in the first place, nor did they funnel billions of dollars per year into its military forces.

No, America did not support the creation of Israel in 1948. In the UN vote we supported them at first but later withdrew our vote. The foreign aid, furthermore, didn't start pouring in until the 70s, as Shep pointed out earlier.

And this sounds like a fantastic idea to me, quite frankly. Hell, the federal domain of uninhabited land is the size of France, there's more than enough room for an Israeli state. Better yet, give them ANWR. Israel as an oil producer, imagine the irony.

Not that the Israelis would want anything like this, though.

[Falcon]

No, Israel's creation was unique, I'll grant you that. What I disagree with you on is that there is a problem with the way Israel exists, that Palestine should be a state, or that we should do anything less than support Israel.

Ah, so the best response to injustice is to praise it and allow it to continue? Gotcha

The other reponse is to commit a greater injustice.

I'm talking about when Iran was called Persia and it was invaded by muslims who then forced their religion on it.

Irrelevant ancient history in which all of the participants are long dead. One might as well speak of restoring Roman territory.

So at what marker in time does it go from being an outrage to being ancient history we should forget? What about nations where an arguably small minority of the population stages military coups and forces their ideology on the rest of the population? Is this less worthy of outrage?

Bullshit. No nation in that part of the world has been a greater destabilizing influence than Israel.

Iraq and Iran used to give it quite the run for its money if you ask me.

Which is why the members of the UN voted to slap Iraq down, if you recall. Yet you insist that Israel should be supported.

The point is that other nations were and still are destabilizing the region. The difference between Israel and the rest of the nations in the region is that Israeli Jews won't be coming as suicide bombers to attack towers in New York.

So because I made you angry at some point more so than most other Christians I must be an imbecile?

No, it's because your arguments are moronic. No one disagreed with your labelling, moron. Didn't you ever wonder why?

This forum is your dictatorship. Who would come running to the aid of someone being maligned only to possibly end up sharing the same fate? Besides which I suspect that a large number of people here, judging by the posts, agree with your point of view. They'd be likely to think my arguements just as moronic as you do. The problem is that my arguements on religion are subjective, the very nature of them makes them impossible to disprove, which is why you object so much. I freely admit that my religion is based on faith not fact and you see that as moronic I suppose.

[Darth Wong]

Wow, the "might makes right" theorem of moral justifications

They were already gone when Israel took the land, anyway.

Are you always this full of shit? They fled Israel's campaign of fear, Joe. Do you really think those caravans of refugees abandoned their homes and walked away because they just felt like it?

No, America did not support the creation of Israel in 1948. In the UN vote we supported them at first but later withdrew our vote. The foreign aid, furthermore, didn't start pouring in until the 70s, as Shep pointed out earlier.

How many UN Security Council motions have been vetoed by the US, Joe? And how does the ramp-up in foreign aid to Israel in the 1970ss change the fact that Saudi Arabia and neighbouring countries bear the least responsibility for the Palestinians, not the most as you keep insisting?

And this sounds like a fantastic idea to me, quite frankly. Hell, the federal domain of uninhabited land is the size of France, there's more than enough room for an Israeli state. Better yet, give them ANWR. Israel as an oil producer, imagine the irony.

Not that the Israelis would want anything like this, though.

Of course not. They're where they are because of GOD

[Joe]

Don't start spewing with substance now.
You're the one who simply changed "move there because of religious appeals" to "move there because there are already some religious and ethnic brethren there which moved there because of religious appeals."
Don't say dumbshit if you don't want it criticized.

The point is they were already there, they had built a nice society complete with infrastructure and everything and they were prepared to accept the Jewish refugees. There was no such location in Africa, religion or not.

You don't get the fucking point. You want to get all practical and stuff while we're talking about ideal solutions, well then for starters you should say ludicrous shit like "the Saudis should take it upon themselves to alleviate Israel of responsibility for their aggressive expansionist, racial apartheid, and ethnic cleansing practices as a Ramadan gift." Fuckmook.

What is so fucking impractical about the Arab nations accepting a comparatively small number of Palestinians into their population? They share a similar culture, there's more than enough land in the various countries to accomodate the Palestinians without upsetting the established populace, and it would be great PR for the western world.

By the way, I would be interested to know how the million plus Israeli-Arabs currently residing within the borders of Israel have had their rights stripped away and why they are still there despite Israel's policy of ethnic cleansing.

[Darth Wong]

The other reponse is to commit a greater injustice.

You have not even attempted to show how "one man one vote" is a "greater injustice" than racial/religious apartheid in the Occupied Territories, idiot.

So at what marker in time does it go from being an outrage to being ancient history we should forget?

Several centuries seems reasonable. At the point where no one has any living memory of the event, the damage done by trying to reverse it may exceed the damage done by letting it lie. Or do you support slave reparations in America?

What about nations where an arguably small minority of the population stages military coups and forces their ideology on the rest of the population? Is this less worthy of outrage?

No, but we certainly aren't sending them billions of dollars in aid, are we?

Which is why the members of the UN voted to slap Iraq down, if you recall. Yet you insist that Israel should be supported.

The point is that other nations were and still are destabilizing the region. The difference between Israel and the rest of the nations in the region is that Israeli Jews won't be coming as suicide bombers to attack towers in New York.

Iraqis and Palestinians didn't bomb the WTC either, moron.

This forum is your dictatorship. Who would come running to the aid of someone being maligned only to possibly end up sharing the same fate?

Many people, if they thought it was truly unjust. I have been flamed by many people on this board. You're just another whiner trying to cry "persecution" even when you can't find a soul to agree with you.

Besides which I suspect that a large number of people here, judging by the posts, agree with your point of view. They'd be likely to think my arguements just as moronic as you do.

That's because they ARE moronic. Many of your fellow Christians can see that.

The problem is that my arguements on religion are subjective, the very nature of them makes them impossible to disprove, which is why you object so much.

It makes them USELESS, moron. I object to their use in an argument where their opposition is objective, and therefore far more substantive.

I freely admit that my religion is based on faith not fact and you see that as moronic I suppose.

Faith is moronic when it is used to contradict objective data.

[Joe]

Are you always this full of shit? They fled Israel's campaign of fear, Joe. Do you really think those caravans of refugees abandoned their homes and walked away because they just felt like it?

What campaign of fear? Why did only 30,000-40,000 Palestinians within Israel's borders flee if this "campaign of fear" was so horrible? Why did the vast majority of them stay?

How many UN Security Council motions have been vetoed by the US, Joe?

Would they have made any difference whatsoever? In fact, the U.S. has only vetoed around a third of the Middle East related resolutions passed over the past 30 years, the majority of which have been critical of Israel, anyway.

And how does the ramp-up in foreign aid to Israel in the 1970ss change the fact that Saudi Arabia and neighbouring countries bear the least responsibility for the Palestinians, not the most as you keep insisting?

I'll concede that SA doesn't really have any responsibility here (no reason why they can't accept Palestinian refugees, though), but the five neighboring countries that started the war that caused the whole problem certainly do.

[Joe]

I'm out of this thread now, I'm going to bed in a few minutes and probably won't be able to come on much tomorrow or Tuesday. So consider my arguments and criticism withdrawn.

[Darth Wong]

Are you always this full of shit? They fled Israel's campaign of fear, Joe. Do you really think those caravans of refugees abandoned their homes and walked away because they just felt like it?

What campaign of fear? Why did only 30,000-40,000 Palestinians within Israel's borders flee if this "campaign of fear" was so horrible? Why did the vast majority of them stay?

You could ask the same question of the Jews who stayed in prewar Germany, Joe. Don't be an idiot; very little could actually cause 100% of people anywhere to flee. Why did so many of them abandon their homes if there was no campaign of fear?

Would they have made any difference whatsoever? In fact, the U.S. has only vetoed around a third of the Middle East related resolutions passed over the past 30 years, the majority of which have been critical of Israel, anyway.
...
I'll concede that SA doesn't really have any responsibility here

Thank you.

(no reason why they can't accept Palestinian refugees, though)

You could say that of any nation.

but the five neighboring countries that started the war that caused the whole problem certainly do.

The whole problem was caused by the five neighbouring countries that attacked peaceful Israel? Puh-lease. How did those countries force Israel to conduct a campaign of ethnic cleansing to clear out space for its Jewish homeland, which is the root of the problem? Why do you think "Right of Return" is such a sticking point in negotiations?

[Ace Pace]

Of course not. They're where they are because of GOD

Maybe the minority fundies, not the majority.
The majority simply wants a place to live.


If Israel was that racist on the voting side, then tell me why are there over 20 arab Knesset members? Maybe i'm blind, but that looks good enough.


The Gaza strip and the West bank, are NOT parts of Israel, arabs who live IN Israel, do vote.

[Darth Wong]

Of course not. They're where they are because of GOD

Maybe the minority fundies, not the majority.
The majority simply wants a place to live.

One which just happens to be situated on top of a place where other people were already living.

If Israel was that racist on the voting side, then tell me why are there over 20 arab Knesset members? Maybe i'm blind, but that looks good enough.

Bullshit. All that proves is that the Arab minority in Israel is obviously segregated.

The Gaza strip and the West bank, are NOT parts of Israel, arabs who live IN Israel, do vote.

So you deny that the Gaza Strip and West Bank are part of Israel? Do you deny that Jews living there can vote?

[Tribun]

Of course not. They're where they are because of GOD

Maybe the minority fundies, not the majority.
The majority simply wants a place to live.


If Israel was that racist on the voting side, then tell me why are there over 20 arab Knesset members? Maybe i'm blind, but that looks good enough.


The Gaza strip and the West bank, are NOT parts of Israel, arabs who live IN Israel, do vote.

Well, after I have read some background material, Arab israels are only second class citezens. Since Israel is defined as a jewish state, all non-jews have less rights than jews.
You can bitch around, but it won't change the facts.

[The Kernel]

The Gaza strip and the West bank, are NOT parts of Israel, arabs who live IN Israel, do vote.

Where did you get this idea from? Oh sure, the Israeli government doesn't recognize them as being within their borders, yet they are a defacto part of Israel. And do you know WHY they aren't considered part of Israel? So that the Israeli government doesn't have to give them voting rights or the rights of citizenship.

Perhaps it hasn't occured to you that according to international law, the Occupied Territories are a part of Israel; the fact that Israel chooses to ignore that does not invalidate this. Israel has the legal and the moral responsibility to treat the people in the Occupied Territories as citizens, something they are loathe to do. Hmmmm, I wonder why eh?

[Darth Wong]

The stereotype of Jews being shifty lawyers is generally unfair in most circumstances, but whenever the subject of Israel comes up, all of a sudden we hear all kinds of legalistic bullshit excuses like "oh well, we technically don't consider that part of Israel proper, so it's OK to have a state of apartheid there and it doesn't reflect on our country", yadda yadda yadda.

[Alyrium Denryle]

And of course when someone calles them on it,they are commiting social/political suicide because they are then accused of being an anti-semite. If not by them, but by Christian Zionists here in the US. And being called a Jew hater is something that sticks.

Basically it all sums up as "It is ok for us to be racist bigots that use fear, intimidation and ethnic cleansing to conquer our God given holy land, because of the holocaust."

[BoredShirtless]

Ace Pace could hit back with "the West Bank and Gaza are NOT part of Israel, only the settlements". Then of course he'd have to admit Israel then settles into land beyond its borders. Oh, I just love the way Israel is free to redraw its borders, just because it can. Fucking. Assholes.

[Col. Crackpot]

Ace Pace could hit back with "the West Bank and Gaza are NOT part of Israel, only the settlements". Then of course he'd have to admit Israel then settles into land beyond its borders. Oh, I just love the way Israel is free to redraw its borders, just because it can. Fucking. Assholes.

Good God Damn. When i agree with BS on a geopolitical issue, i would imagine it is best to just. keep. walking.

[BoredShirtless]

Bush is a war criminal. Better?

[Falcon]

The other reponse is to commit a greater injustice.

You have not even attempted to show how "one man one vote" is a "greater injustice" than racial/religious apartheid in the Occupied Territories, idiot.

You'd be letting the same kind of islamic terrorists who attacked the US vote in Israel. The best thing for Israel to do would be to forcibly remove the Pals from its territory. Oh wait, no one else wants them, all the other nations in the region want to use the Pal issue to destroy Israel, not to actually help anyone out.

So at what marker in time does it go from being an outrage to being ancient history we should forget?

Several centuries seems reasonable. At the point where no one has any living memory of the event, the damage done by trying to reverse it may exceed the damage done by letting it lie. Or do you support slave reparations in America?

In light of that I suggest you forget about the Palestinians then. They've not controlled the region for centuries. The British have been there since 1917 and Turks controlled it before that all the way back to 1517. Surely after this extended period of time the Pals have little claim to the right to rule or even stay if the owners don't want them...

What about nations where an arguably small minority of the population stages military coups and forces their ideology on the rest of the population? Is this less worthy of outrage?

No, but we certainly aren't sending them billions of dollars in aid, are we?

We're sending Egypt just as much foreign aid as Israel. Their human rights record is sketchy at best. http://hrw.org/doc/?t=mideast&c=egypt Not long ago we were sending N. Korea aid too. The only difference is that Israel won't be giving nukes to terrorists or exporting radicals to blow up out buildings.

Which is why the members of the UN voted to slap Iraq down, if you recall. Yet you insist that Israel should be supported.

The point is that other nations were and still are destabilizing the region. The difference between Israel and the rest of the nations in the region is that Israeli Jews won't be coming as suicide bombers to attack towers in New York.

Iraqis and Palestinians didn't bomb the WTC either, moron.

Of course not, but the Pals are from the same radical group as the ones who did and Iraq was so hostile to us that collaboration with terrorists was a small step for them to make. The Saddam regime already paid cash to the families of Pal suicide bombers thus supporting the destabilization of the region.

This forum is your dictatorship. Who would come running to the aid of someone being maligned only to possibly end up sharing the same fate?

Many people, if they thought it was truly unjust. I have been flamed by many people on this board. You're just another whiner trying to cry "persecution" even when you can't find a soul to agree with you.

I'm not trying to cry persecution. I just don't think its valid for you to give me a title then flame me in an arguement by pointing at my title. I didn't start the issue of my title in this discussion, you did.

I freely admit that my religion is based on faith not fact and you see that as moronic I suppose.

Faith is moronic when it is used to contradict objective data.

I've not used faith to contradict objective data.

[Col. Crackpot]

Bush is a war criminal. Better?

much better, you liberal pinko commie piece of Eurotrash!

[The Kernel]

Bush is a war criminal. Better?

much better, you liberal pinko commie piece of Eurotrash!

You two make the cutest couple!

[Darth Wong]

You have not even attempted to show how "one man one vote" is a "greater injustice" than racial/religious apartheid in the Occupied Territories, idiot.

You'd be letting the same kind of islamic terrorists who attacked the US vote in Israel.

This, quite frankly, says it all. You're a theocratic bigot who supports apartheid policies and assumes that all Muslims are the same. Palestinians, Saudi Arabians, it's all the same to you, isn't it? Bin Laden hits the WTC and you want to punish some 18 year old kid in Palestine

<snip more pathetic bullshit>

Don't waste your time trying to pretend you're a paragon of intellectual integrity. No one's buying it, and a simple search through your posting history will reveal the truth.

[BoredShirtless]

You'd be letting the same kind of islamic terrorists who attacked the US vote in Israel.

So? The majority of them aren't terrorists. Just like the majority of white Americans aren't like Timothy McVeigh.

The best thing for Israel to do would be to forcibly remove the Pals from its territory. Oh wait, no one else wants them, all the other nations in the region want to use the Pal issue to destroy Israel, not to actually help anyone out.

We had a dickhead like you in Germany who thought ethnic cleansing was a good solution too. You've read his book, Mein Kampf, haven't you?