Some 40k firepower estimates

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Post by His Divine Shadow »

NecronLord wrote:It's more than likely that the guns are the same, but the Techprisets don't know how to do it (highly likely) or that they simply are not that savage (unlikely)
I'd gather, from looking at the quotes, that advanced manufacturing technuiqes where lost over the centuries and millenias, possibly materials tech too and so on, and this essentially forced them to make lower-grade weapons, engines and ships that simply couldn't be as good.
Possibly even reactor tech is the same but cruder and less powerfull due to no one actually knowing how it works...
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Post by Darth_Shinji »

Actually I'm under the impression that the Slann were servants of the Old Ones. It says so in the Lizardman army book. I know they used to be the Old Ones but they changed it in third edition.
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Post by 2000AD »

NecronLord wrote:Nahh they'll never join them rules wise. Though at the back of the Necron codex it is suggested that you could have some fun and fight a lizardman army."You could even have some fun by using a lizardman army in Warhammer 40,000, although this would require a bit of preperation to deal with any oddities." Codex Necrons Page 61
*Thinks about a lizardman vs Necron game*
:lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol:

poor little skinks.
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Post by NecronLord »

Darth_Shinji wrote:Actually I'm under the impression that the Slann were servants of the Old Ones. It says so in the Lizardman army book. I know they used to be the Old Ones but they changed it in third edition.
I stand Corrected. Make that Old One Technology then.
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His Divine Shadow wrote:
NecronLord wrote:It's more than likely that the guns are the same, but the Techprisets don't know how to do it (highly likely) or that they simply are not that savage (unlikely)
I'd gather, from looking at the quotes, that advanced manufacturing technuiqes where lost over the centuries and millenias, possibly materials tech too and so on, and this essentially forced them to make lower-grade weapons, engines and ships that simply couldn't be as good.
Possibly even reactor tech is the same but cruder and less powerfull due to no one actually knowing how it works...
True, there is a wide variety of levels of knowlage loss in 40K. The Emperor is their only possible chance of ever regaining most of it, and though they can cure him (Inquisitor) they dare not tamper with him for fear of accidentaly killing him :P :D :twisted: :roll: :D :) :lol: :twisted:
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2000AD wrote:
NecronLord wrote:Nahh they'll never join them rules wise. Though at the back of the Necron codex it is suggested that you could have some fun and fight a lizardman army."You could even have some fun by using a lizardman army in Warhammer 40,000, although this would require a bit of preperation to deal with any oddities." Codex Necrons Page 61
*Thinks about a lizardman vs Necron game*
:lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol:

poor little skinks.
They suggested that the Eldar use them as a Trap, as the C'tan seriously have it in for anything related to the Old Ones

1 Necron Lord versus the entire Lizardman army?
"Ohhh scary :twisted: "
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Post by 2000AD »

I don't know .... a necronlord may have some problems namely:

-Kroxidors: big and too dumb to be scared
-Stegadons: ditto and can crush you
-Slann magic. Would firey conflagulation (sp) have any effect on a necron? If not then you see that hill there? With assualt of stone you got yourself one necronlord under a helluva lot of earth.
-Laser guided rocks dropped by Terradons. Not really laser guided but more accurate than real life laser guided bombs.

And lets not forget that all lizardmen get an armour save no matter what! you could drop an office block on his head and he still has a chance of shaking tit off.
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Post by 2000AD »

Now lets get this thread back on topic!
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Post by NecronLord »

2000AD wrote:I don't know .... a necronlord may have some problems namely:

-Kroxidors: big and too dumb to be scared
-Stegadons: ditto and can crush you
-Slann magic. Would firey conflagulation (sp) have any effect on a necron? If not then you see that hill there? With assualt of stone you got yourself one necronlord under a helluva lot of earth.
-Laser guided rocks dropped by Terradons. Not really laser guided but more accurate than real life laser guided bombs.

And lets not forget that all lizardmen get an armour save no matter what! you could drop an office block on his head and he still has a chance of shaking tit off.
Assuming he has waived the 25% rule that is, and has the Veil of Darkness upgrade and Destroyer Body, then yeah. They can regenerate after being melted completely so conflagration wouldn't affect them.
And he can likely fly higher than Terradons
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Post by 2000AD »

I hate the new necron rules. Almost as much as I hate the old necron rules. I especially hate them because i had just started collecting Tau as my new army and then the badass necrons come out :evil: . I normally play Chaos, but i decided to spread out a bit. I get a new goody-two-shoes army because they have serious firepower and then the new badass necrons come out. DOH!
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Post by NecronLord »

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*Nightbringer doing lord kitchener impression"
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Post by white_rabbit »

Sigh..briefly.

HDS...fuck you if you cant accept proof, and Necronlord, I thought someone with a detailed 40k knowledge would understand, although HDS may not have told what I was saying, if he even understood.

The Imperiums Technology is maintained, they DO have plenty of things they dont really understand, and produce them because the STC templates allow them to do it quicker and easier, rather than designing their own untried technologys .

However, they CAN and do produce new ships, and utilise new technologys, as well as designing things for cutom use...the Holographic/sensor shield in Kill Team for example.

My contention was, that they are not limited to the same old designs.

The Firestorm frigates are a new design, as are the Idolators(or infidel) Raiders. which were created using stolen Imperium designs, that were NOT STC designs, they were an attempt to create a new ship.

Similarly the Mk 8 armour suits are from within a thousand years IIRC, and since living to 800+ isnt a problem for a some Techpriests Im not sure how you can claim they cant build them anymore.

New Titans are constructed, that work just great, they arent "Lost Tech" if you can build new ones..or is my english failing me ?

Not to mention that they were redesigned after the Heresy.

The current Dreadnought is the Mk 5 dready, its a better design, an improvement on the stc system that produced it.
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I'd gather, from looking at the quotes, that advanced manufacturing technuiqes where lost over the centuries and millenias, possibly materials tech too and so on, and this essentially forced them to make lower-grade weapons, engines and ships that simply couldn't be as good.
Yep, in some cases thats true.....but it isnt uniform over the Imperium, feral or lower tech worlds will have lesser ability to create advanced goods, but they will still have these nice basic designs.

The Imperial Guard are nominally equipped with material produced at Hive/Industrial-Forge world, level planets.

The Space Marines have their own forges and industrys.
The Emperor is their only possible chance of ever regaining most of it
Hmm, I think a functional STC Database would also do the trick.

Or something that would stop Chaos from thieving every new technology, then fragging the data.

i.e. the Slaughter classes scartix coil, the (3rd) founding SuperSpace Marines, etc.

Plus kicking the Void-Dragon off Mars so the Techmages can get on with the work rather than draining their lives away into his Sarcophagus!
this is of couse not very reliable.
And ofter makes your brain hurt...like AC numbers that wouldnt let a Thunderhawk get out of orbit :lol:
Throw out any data for ranges from the game mechanics. the reason the ranges are so poor is so you don't need acres to play using tanks.
I found a schematic that puts the Range of the Demolisher cannon at 2000mtres, plasma guns at 1500 and Lascannons at 2000metres as well.

However the best thing about an AT-AT is that it is slow moving (compared to say, elda
Eldar Gravtanks max low altitude speed as noted in a Whitedwarf article is 154kmph

At high altitude its 850kph

Not bad for an APC/Battletank

The Marauder is, of course, the big air/space bomber used by the IoM, and the lascannon are standard twin-linked models
Its a little baby of course....compared to the Starhawk Bomber and the Fury Interceptor. these are the main Space fighters used by the Imperium.

From memory the Fury has several Banks of lascannons.



But they can't destroy planets, eh?
I mean thats why they need the special exterminatus ships for right?
As Necronlord says, Exterminatus Ships are when they have to do it quick.
Exterminatus usually dosent result in the planet blowing up IIRC.

Mainly cause blowing the planet up tends to annhilate lots of the resources, Exterminatus dosnt do that as badly.

They use Virus Bombs...which eat everything organic. and in some cases ignite the atmosphere.

Big fusion bombs...dunno, usually "flash of light" is the most we get for those(these may be the "geo-nuclear strikes" referred to when the Word Bearers destroy 3 planets in the Ultramar system.

Cyclotronic Torpedos...chain reaction warheads, ignite atmophere and create planetwide plasma storms that strip the planet down to the Bedrock.





Cyclotronic torpedos have been known to destroy planets though, usually cause they destabilise the whole planet.


[/quote]but the exterminatus can be done as a hit and run

A case in point being the example in the Tyranid codex.

Massive tyranid fleet eating the planet.

A squadron of cobras zip in and fire off a volley of torps, the Tyranids manage to block a third of the torps, but the planet is still incinerated.
Indeed the device powering the Planet Killer is either Necron or Slann in origin. That last line,

"postulated functions...tertiary warp core phasing accelerator"

The first bit of fluff on the Pker describing the destruction of Savaven detailing the planet blowing up...HDS report is from the perspective of a Guardmens or Naval official, this is from the perspective of Abaddon himself.

"with a continent sized detonation the planets core erupted...(planet gets knocked off course)

...with a final death spasm the planet disintigrated into a billion shards of molten rock which spread across the heavens like glowing dust.


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Post by NecronLord »

white_rabbit wrote:Sigh..briefly.

HDS...fuck you if you cant accept proof, and Necronlord, I thought someone with a detailed 40k knowledge would understand, although HDS may not have told what I was saying, if he even understood.

The Imperiums Technology is maintained, they DO have plenty of things they dont really understand, and produce them because the STC templates allow them to do it quicker and easier, rather than designing their own untried technologys .

However, they CAN and do produce new ships, and utilise new technologys, as well as designing things for cutom use...the Holographic/sensor shield in Kill Team for example.

My contention was, that they are not limited to the same old designs.

The Firestorm frigates are a new design, as are the Idolators(or infidel) Raiders. which were created using stolen Imperium designs, that were NOT STC designs, they were an attempt to create a new ship.

Similarly the Mk 8 armour suits are from within a thousand years IIRC, and since living to 800+ isnt a problem for a some Techpriests Im not sure how you can claim they cant build them anymore.

New Titans are constructed, that work just great, they arent "Lost Tech" if you can build new ones..or is my english failing me ?
They are not as regressive as they were, but they have no hope of doing any of the Moving stars type stuff from the DAoT

Not to mention that they were redesigned after the Heresy.

The current Dreadnought is the Mk 5 dready, its a better design, an improvement on the stc system that produced it.
More adapted to the current enviroment anyway.
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I'd gather, from looking at the quotes, that advanced manufacturing technuiqes where lost over the centuries and millenias, possibly materials tech too and so on, and this essentially forced them to make lower-grade weapons, engines and ships that simply couldn't be as good.
Yep, in some cases thats true.....but it isnt uniform over the Imperium, feral or lower tech worlds will have lesser ability to create advanced goods, but they will still have these nice basic designs.

The Imperial Guard are nominally equipped with material produced at Hive/Industrial-Forge world, level planets.

The Space Marines have their own forges and industrys.
The Emperor is their only possible chance of ever regaining most of it
Hmm, I think a functional STC Database would also do the trick.
Not really, the STC has limits. eg IIRC in Deathwing there is a planet with a functioning STC archive, and they are unable to do anything about the Imperium. The STC is a glorified CAD program. It was designed to be user friendly, and does not give the knowlage, merely tells them how to build things.

Or something that would stop Chaos from thieving every new technology, then fragging the data.

i.e. the Slaughter classes scartix coil, the (3rd) founding SuperSpace Marines, etc.

Plus kicking the Void-Dragon off Mars so the Techmages can get on with the work rather than draining their lives away into his Sarcophagus!
SILENCE IMPUDENT ONE!
this is of couse not very reliable.
And ofter makes your brain hurt...like AC numbers that wouldnt let a Thunderhawk get out of orbit :lol:
Throw out any data for ranges from the game mechanics. the reason the ranges are so poor is so you don't need acres to play using tanks.
I found a schematic that puts the Range of the Demolisher cannon at 2000mtres, plasma guns at 1500 and Lascannons at 2000metres as well.
Wheres that?
However the best thing about an AT-AT is that it is slow moving (compared to say, elda
Eldar Gravtanks max low altitude speed as noted in a Whitedwarf article is 154kmph

At high altitude its 850kph

Not bad for an APC/Battletank
Exactly, far slower than a Wave serpent, and they can shoot them down.

The Marauder is, of course, the big air/space bomber used by the IoM, and the lascannon are standard twin-linked models
Its a little baby of course....compared to the Starhawk Bomber and the Fury Interceptor. these are the main Space fighters used by the Imperium.

From memory the Fury has several Banks of lascannons.



But they can't destroy planets, eh?
I mean thats why they need the special exterminatus ships for right?
As Necronlord says, Exterminatus Ships are when they have to do it quick.
Exterminatus usually dosent result in the planet blowing up IIRC.

Mainly cause blowing the planet up tends to annhilate lots of the resources, Exterminatus dosnt do that as badly.

They use Virus Bombs...which eat everything organic. and in some cases ignite the atmosphere.
Thats Cyclotronic Torpedoes, the inquisitor in Nightbringer gives a nice description of them to the govenor whose world he's thinking about destroying :twisted:

Big fusion bombs...dunno, usually "flash of light" is the most we get for those(these may be the "geo-nuclear strikes" referred to when the Word Bearers destroy 3 planets in the Ultramar system.

Cyclotronic Torpedos...chain reaction warheads, ignite atmophere and create planetwide plasma storms that strip the planet down to the Bedrock.
above

Cyclotronic torpedos have been known to destroy planets though, usually cause they destabilise the whole planet.

but the exterminatus can be done as a hit and run

A case in point being the example in the Tyranid codex.

Massive tyranid fleet eating the planet.

A squadron of cobras zip in and fire off a volley of torps, the Tyranids manage to block a third of the torps, but the planet is still incinerated.

Indeed the device powering the Planet Killer is either Necron or Slann in origin. That last line,

"postulated functions...tertiary warp core phasing accelerator"

The first bit of fluff on the Pker describing the destruction of Savaven detailing the planet blowing up...HDS report is from the perspective of a Guardmens or Naval official, this is from the perspective of Abaddon himself.

"with a continent sized detonation the planets core erupted...(planet gets knocked off course)

...with a final death spasm the planet disintigrated into a billion shards of molten rock which spread across the heavens like glowing dust.


[/quote]
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Post by white_rabbit »

Thats Cyclotronic Torpedoes, the inquisitor in Nightbringer gives a nice description of them to the govenor whose world he's thinking about destroying

Apparently Virus bombs can do it as well, it depends on what sort of planet it is.

Hlowever, Ive only read of it once, so I think it can probably be regarded as rare

They are not as regressive as they were, but they have no hope of doing any of the Moving stars type stuff from the DAoT



I think thats likely extremely true :D,
Not really, the STC has limits. eg IIRC in Deathwing there is a planet with a functioning STC archive, and they are unable to do anything about the Imperium. The STC is a glorified CAD program. It was designed to be user friendly, and does not give the knowlage, merely tells them how to build things.
I think a fully functioning STC database would be a tremendous boost to the Imperium, the planet in question was ruled by a bunch of secretive monks who wanted to remain autonomous, they didnt give the Imperium the STC sytem cause they knew the IoM would crush them.

A human colony with ubertech, presumably STC related DID manage to hold off the main Imperial force until they dropped a comet on them.

IMO it would depend on what the STC sytem contained, Im talking about the Full shebang, a complete Dark Age STC system, inclusive of all the toys, including the Iron Men, Battle Robots, Warp bubble generators etc

SILENCE IMPUDENT ONE!
Aww, is the likkle Necron upset :D
Wheres that?
Inferno, its part of series,

Ive got a Chimera, Demolisher, and a Basilisk..
Exactly, far slower than a Wave serpent, and they can shoot them down.
Dont you mean a Snowspeeder ?

I think the Eldar Orbital/planetary fighters would rape ATATs though, multiple Brightlances and eldar missiles =dead ATATs
but the exterminatus can be done as a hit and run
Hence my example of the Cobras trying to do it quickly so the Tyranids dont munch them!
Indeed the device powering the Planet Killer is either Necron or Slann in origin. That last line,
It may be necron IMO, Abaddons rather interested in the Voiddragon on mars..its tenous, but that and "phasing" is all weve got to go with.


plus theres the Necron heads on both the daemonprince and trophy rack models that show that they aint invunerable to chaos "weird shit" to stop the phase/teleport.
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Post by white_rabbit »

If indeed the Eldar did fight the Empire...it wouldnt be Falcons used against the ATATs and other large stuff, although they would be able to take them.

It would be the Engines of Vaul, and they would absolutely annhilate Imperial wardroids, tanks etc with or without shields..

aint D-cannons a bitch!

D-cannons bypass all forms of energy shield in 40k.
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Post by NecronLord »

white_rabbit wrote:
Thats Cyclotronic Torpedoes, the inquisitor in Nightbringer gives a nice description of them to the govenor whose world he's thinking about destroying

Apparently Virus bombs can do it as well, it depends on what sort of planet it is.

Hlowever, Ive only read of it once, so I think it can probably be regarded as rare

They are not as regressive as they were, but they have no hope of doing any of the Moving stars type stuff from the DAoT



I think thats likely extremely true :D,
Not really, the STC has limits. eg IIRC in Deathwing there is a planet with a functioning STC archive, and they are unable to do anything about the Imperium. The STC is a glorified CAD program. It was designed to be user friendly, and does not give the knowlage, merely tells them how to build things.
I think a fully functioning STC database would be a tremendous boost to the Imperium, the planet in question was ruled by a bunch of secretive monks who wanted to remain autonomous, they didnt give the Imperium the STC sytem cause they knew the IoM would crush them.

A human colony with ubertech, presumably STC related DID manage to hold off the main Imperial force until they dropped a comet on them.

IMO it would depend on what the STC sytem contained, Im talking about the Full shebang, a complete Dark Age STC system, inclusive of all the toys, including the Iron Men, Battle Robots, Warp bubble generators etc
Quite, a full achive such as the Librarium Ommnis of Mars would be able to produce approx culture level ships
SILENCE IMPUDENT ONE!
Aww, is the likkle Necron upset :D
Horrible fleshy critter! :D
Wheres that?
Inferno, its part of series,

Ive got a Chimera, Demolisher, and a Basilisk..
Exactly, far slower than a Wave serpent, and they can shoot them down.
Dont you mean a Snowspeeder ?
No I meant a comparison of IoM targeting.

I think the Eldar Orbital/planetary fighters would rape ATATs though, multiple Brightlances and eldar missiles =dead ATATs
but the exterminatus can be done as a hit and run
Hence my example of the Cobras trying to do it quickly so the Tyranids dont munch them!
Indeed the device powering the Planet Killer is either Necron or Slann in origin. That last line,
It may be necron IMO, Abaddons rather interested in the Voiddragon on mars..its tenous, but that and "phasing" is all weve got to go with.
It is more likely Old One. However Necron Technology is stated as being superior to theirs in ever conceivable way, excluding psycic

plus theres the Necron heads on both the daemonprince and trophy rack models that show that they aint invunerable to chaos "weird shit" to stop the phase/teleport.
Artistic licence? Chaos Lord 'biggin it up' Funky psykic shit?

Seriously though when you argue based on the models its getting very unstable ground :D {try to rationalise some of the more insane conversions out there :? :lol: }
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Post by 2000AD »

Demolisher cannon range at 2km? Bullshit!

A demolisher cannon is extremely short ranged for ordinance. They have the same range as a boltgun in 2nd ed and 3rd ed. rules. They are mainly used for city fighting so the short range wouldn't be a problem and the devestaing power of it would obliterate enemy armour and obsticles at such ranges. They are also used in defencive postions because the enemy is coming to them. This off sets the need for any vehicle smaller than superheavier to stay still if firing ordinance.
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Post by 2000AD »

And just WTF is this Void Dragon thing?
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Post by white_rabbit »

2000AD wrote:And just WTF is this Void Dragon thing?

Umm, you dont know who the Void Dragon is ?

oh dear...

You do know what a Necron is right ?

Its a fucking C'tan, one of Four ?

Void-Dragon, Nightbringer, Deciever, Outsider.
Demolisher cannon range at 2km? Bullshit!
Why is it bullshit ?

The ingame ranges of 40k are quite definately not the actual ranges of the weapons, the game is not a completely accurately scaled system, otherwise you would only be able to fit 10 marines in a Rhino in liquid form!!

Its a short-range cannon alright, but 2km is perfectly reasonable if you take into account the fact that in a game of 40k its preferable if your opponent cant annhilate you from off table..

We have tanks now that can fire at ranges vastly beyond that, hell, fucking rifles that could potentially make it..

But does fighting with weapons that can reach 2km mean you will ALWAYS and WITHOUT fail fire from that range....no it doesnt does it..

40k is essence a small engagement,

One of the guys at the Gameday when Epic was first released likened a single assault by a portion of an epic army, this is the Epic bersion of close combat, to be roughly equivalent to a game of 40k.


Horrible fleshy critter!

Thats Slaanesh, me, Im Iron Warriors with a bit of Khornate...

And you just cant take it that my Daemon-Prince could kick a C'tans ass!
No I meant a comparison of IoM targeting
Oh, cool.

Eldar Grav tanks can have Holofields as well, might not do the Empires targetting systems any good..
It is more likely Old One.
With the whole Warp thing, yeah, but it may also be just some weird ass chaos invention.
Artistic licence? Chaos Lord 'biggin it up' Funky psykic shit?
More likely than not..

Still, it pisses off Necron players to no end :lol:
{try to rationalise some of the more insane conversions out there }
True, but this is the basic Daemon Prince model, !
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His Divine Shadow
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

white_rabbit wrote:HDS...fuck you if you cant accept proof, and Necronlord, I thought someone with a detailed 40k knowledge would understand, although HDS may not have told what I was saying, if he even understood.
Oh cry me a river, you lunatic, here you go again, you explode again because I DARE to say something that you don't like, whatever mental or social problems you might have that causes you to be such a turncoat fanatic over sci-fi universes, don't take them out on me.

And I have shown proof, quotes, it's a fact already, just because you can pull some bullshit on me not having a "deep enough understanding" of the 40k universe does not make you right, infact I've been told this by people that are helluva deep into the 40k universe.

And apparently Necronlord agrees with me, is he beyond this magical deep enough level of understanding too?

Oh my oh my, you're the CREATOR of WH40k aren't you, thats why you have the power to just say that evidence is wrong and that would be it!
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who did not.
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His Divine Shadow
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

Now listen you turncoat traitor who I thought was a decent human being.
Just because they are making new designs and such doesn't stop the fact that they HAVE regressed and the quotes clearly indicate a regression.

Ofcourse you have to look at everything in black and white and the moment I said something not 1005% pro-40k you looked on me as an enemy and decided to flame me, you're a really great person, you know that?
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who did not.
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His Divine Shadow
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

My contention was, that they are not limited to the same old designs
`

My contention is that you're just not a nice nor likeable zealot.
I've shown the proof, it's true, necronlord and more 40k'ers I've been talking to in private agrees with me.

That you have to take it 100% black and white and insult me at the same time only shows that you're a lowly human being whom I want no further contact with, ever, you're way too fanatical to dare have around, never know when you turn again.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who did not.
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Post by white_rabbit »

HDS..

In addendum to my private message..

Sorry if you disliked the way I put my reply, but I tend to be a little blunt and forthright...And yes...I am a zealot...But I provide facts and have given quotes and proof before.... something you cannot deny..well I suppose you could actually..*shrug*
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Post by white_rabbit »

[quote="His Divine Shadow"]Now listen you turncoat traitor who I thought was a decent human being.
Just because they are making new designs and such doesn't stop the fact that they HAVE regressed and the quotes clearly indicate a regression.

quote]

Hey!

I didnt deny they regressed!

Christ, they used to move stars!

They have however reached a "sort" of technological stability for their sum total of knowledge, it fluctuates either way depending on where you are, but they are not receding to the extent that a Rhino built now will be vastly inferior to a rhino built 10,000 years earlier.


Never have I taken things 100% black and white, hell my conversations with NL would seemingly indicate this.

You have taken my posts as 100% black and white by your interpretation

And "fuck you"

Its not the worst flame in the world...is it ?
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Post by Skelron »

Ahh the D-Cannon Vs At-AT, a single weapon with a crew of two. taking out a mighty AT-AT in one yes One Shot. How, simple those nice legs, heavily armoured I grant you, but about the size of the D-Cannon Blast...

Sorry I love the D-Cannon Soverign weapon of any Debate, got to love a weapon that goes, Armour nah, I'm just teleporting you to the Warp and then Maybe back again. Imagine the AT-AT whose Forward Left Leg is suddenly erm above it's head.... :shock: Sorry anyway weapon Power yes, erm, well the D-Cannon has Power X where by X=The amount of Power needed..... sorry intellagence has left me, I had an intellagnet Comment then someone (White Rabbit I think) gave me the mental image of the AT-AT facing a D-Cannon...
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