Wing Commander vs FreeSpace

Post by **weemadando** » 2002-10-20 07:06pm

I'm fairly sure that someone would have done this before.

Who wins in an all out war between the two?

Assume that both sides "jump-points" operate in the same manner.

Wing Commander - The Confederation during the Wing Commander 3 game

vs

FreeSpace - The GTVA during the FreeSpace2 game.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2002-10-20 07:14pm

Freespace probably.

Their ships are huger, and their explosions are far prettier.

WC3 might have been the first space game to use textured polys (one of the first ever, iirc), but it didn't have the same sense of ohmyfuckinggodthat'shuge that Freespace does sometimes.

Skipper Missiles would make things interesting though.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2002-10-20 07:15pm

Also, Wing Commander's name is forever tainted by that godawful film.

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-10-20 07:20pm

The GTVA would open up a barrel o whoopass.

Post by **weemadando** » 2002-10-20 07:29pm

GTVA jumps in a Fenris.
Confeds jump in 12 Paradigms.
GTVA jumps in the Colossus.
-Result, GTVA wins.

GTVA fighters would also dominate the Confed fighters.

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-10-20 07:31pm

Hercules would simply kick so much ass it's not funny.

Post by **weemadando** » 2002-10-20 07:44pm

Imagine what a Perseus or Erinyes would do to a Confed fighter.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2002-10-20 07:48pm

Depends on two major things:

1. What are the speeds of WC ships (really) and FS ships (really)
2. Do the WC ships have any commonly used Kinetic Weapons?

The big thing about the speeds is that, IIRC, WC ships are listed in the dozens (if not hundreds) of km/s while the FS counterparts, on average, are supposed to chug along at ~70 m/s.

As for kinetics, well, it's common knowledge that FS ships toss around high amounts of energy like candy. However, they have a rather nasty weakness to kinetic-based attacks, and even worse, slow moving asteroids. A force substitution of a FreeSpace Fleet in place of the Imperial Fleet hunting the Millenium Falcon in the asteroid field of TESB would have resulted in near total devestation for the FreeSpace fleet.

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-10-20 08:11pm

Hotfoot wrote:Depends on two major things:

1. What are the speeds of WC ships (really) and FS ships (really)
2. Do the WC ships have any commonly used Kinetic Weapons?

The big thing about the speeds is that, IIRC, WC ships are listed in the dozens (if not hundreds) of km/s while the FS counterparts, on average, are supposed to chug along at ~70 m/s.

They've moved faster. The fastest I've ever seen is roughly 80. Besides, do you really think the WC ships engage at that speed? I doubt it.

As for kinetics, well, it's common knowledge that FS ships toss around high amounts of energy like candy. However, they have a rather nasty weakness to kinetic-based attacks, and even worse, slow moving asteroids. A force substitution of a FreeSpace Fleet in place of the Imperial Fleet hunting the Millenium Falcon in the asteroid field of TESB would have resulted in near total devestation for the FreeSpace fleet.

*thwap* PAY ATTENTION! An asteriod takes, like, one percentage point off the ship. Deploy four or five fighters for escort and she'll be fine.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2002-10-20 08:21pm

IG-88E wrote:They've moved faster. The fastest I've ever seen is roughly 80. Besides, do you really think the WC ships engage at that speed? I doubt it.

Note, I said on average. You can get up to 120 m/s, as I recall, but that's it.

As for WC ships, if they say km/s, it's km/s, unless it's contradicted elsewhere. I do believe that's what the readout in the HUD says, so if that is correct, they do engage at that speed, whether you like it or not.

*thwap* PAY ATTENTION! An asteriod takes, like, one percentage point off the ship. Deploy four or five fighters for escort and she'll be fine.

Only if one of those four or five fighters happens to be "The" Alpha One. And depending on the size of the asteroid, they do more than one percentage point of the ship. Of course, it does alter as per ship class. Also, you can't deny that the best anti-hull cannon a fighter carries is kinetic in nature.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-10-20 09:35pm

Wing-Commander fighters have superior speeds and possibly ranges as well. Their afterburners also give them a big advantage. The Confed has more capships and fighters then the GTVA. GTVA has only 80 destroyers (40 Orion/Hectate, 40 Typhon/Hesphet) with a couple hundred lesser ships. The Confed has production lines building massive numbers of fighters in a single day, has fleets of many support ships, and has the likes of the Midway and Vesuvius class ships. Hades and Plunkett cruisers would absolutely shred FS ships at range and they would use their speed to stay away. FS ships would have trouble dealing with the shielded WC ships. Infact, the FS shield allows the massive 9GT weapons to detonate on the fighter doing a fraction of the damage. Shields would make FS anti-capship weapons almost useless.

Moonstone Spider · Post by **Moonstone Spider** » 2002-10-20 10:05pm

Wing Commander Capships have speeds in the 20-50 km/s range, even their slow moving tubs will be going thousands or at least hundreds of times faster than Freespace fighters.

Add to this that as of Wing Commander 2 no amount of energy was able to damage a capship with phase shields, period. Only phased weapons could penetrate phase shields. In later games all shields and all weapons became phased, meaning no FS weapon would have any effect. They also have cloak fighters, all all ships developed cloak-penetrating sensors so they gave those up. Bottom line is, their ships are practically invincible to FS weapons, they can easily retrofit them to be invisible to sensors, and their slowest vessel is several orders of magnitude faster than the fastest FS ship.

Bob McDob · Post by **Bob McDob** » 2002-10-21 02:17am

Hotfoot wrote:
IG-88E wrote: As for WC ships, if they say km/s, it's km/s, unless it's contradicted elsewhere. I do believe that's what the readout in the HUD says, so if that is correct, they do engage at that speed, whether you like it or not.

Actually, the HUD specifies a MPS closing rate for combat . . . during nav transport it reverts to KPS.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2002-10-21 02:20am

Bob McDob wrote:Actually, the HUD specifies a MPS closing rate for combat . . . during nav transport it reverts to KPS.

I stand corrected. However, is it still in the hundreds of m/s? If so, FS is still grossly outclassed.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-10-21 06:03am

Wing Commander 3 time period is silly.

Go Prophecy: the whole schebang ...

Should I remind everyone about Wing Commander 4's flashpacks? The Behemoth planet-killer? The Vesuvius super carrier (pretty damn impressive maneuverability for such a large ship) and the Dragon Heavy Fighter?

But GTVA would still win. Colossus man ... like comeon ... slice and dice.

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2002-10-21 09:28am

WC wins. Having played all the WC games (including the off-universe ones like Privateer 2), and all the Freespace games, I can tell you that even the best FS ship handles like a cow on skates - WC ships are much better armed and faster to boot (and I'm just talking gameplay here). And as was pointed out, why did WC4 and Prophecy get left out?

Aw, hell with that, give me a Longbow with my choice of loadout any day against any thing.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2002-10-21 10:33am

Vympel wrote:But GTVA would still win. Colossus man ... like comeon ... slice and dice.

You can't kill what you can't hit.

And no, "kewlness" does not make things better in a fight. If such were the case, nothing would stop the United Federation of Planets.

Larz · Post by **Larz** » 2002-10-21 11:45am

Give me a Myrmidon (spelled wrong but I don't care) or a Hercules II armed with Tornados any day over a Hellcat... though the Dragon armed with FoF missles was a rather nice fighter...

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-10-21 12:05pm

Hotfoot wrote: And no, "kewlness" does not make things better in a fight. If such were the case, nothing would stop the United Federation of Planets.

Are you smoking crack or something? On what plane of existence is the UFP cool in ANY WAY? Are you alright? Call the paramedics!!!!

But back on topic my loyalties lie with Wing Commander- I just remember with fondness the weapons and scale of Freespace.

Flashpaks rule.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2002-10-21 01:29pm

Vympel wrote:
Hotfoot wrote: And no, "kewlness" does not make things better in a fight. If such were the case, nothing would stop the United Federation of Planets.
Are you smoking crack or something? On what plane of existence is the UFP cool in ANY WAY? Are you alright? Call the paramedics!!!!

I'm referring to the "But, the ships are so sleek and futuristic looking on Star Trek! Star Wars ships look like trash! Star Trek must have better technology than Star Wars!" line of thought. 'Tis the same fallacy here with the "Oooh, slice and dice with beams!"

But back on topic my loyalties lie with Wing Commander- I just remember with fondness the weapons and scale of Freespace.

Flashpaks rule.

My loyalties lie with neither WC or Freespace, as can quite clearly be seen in my sig. However, FS is rather the red-headed stepchild of vs. Debates, much like Mechwarrior/Battletech. Sure, both are fun universes and games, but they just can't hold their own against their peers.

Maybe a BT vs. FS is in order?

Vertigo1 · Post by **Vertigo1** » 2002-10-21 03:46pm

Alpha 1 + GTF Erinyes armed with Kaysers and tornadoe missiles = unstoppable

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2002-10-21 05:03pm

Hotfoot wrote:My loyalties lie with neither WC or Freespace, as can quite clearly be seen in my sig. However, FS is rather the red-headed stepchild of vs. Debates, much like Mechwarrior/Battletech. Sure, both are fun universes and games, but they just can't hold their own against their peers.

Maybe a BT vs. FS is in order?

Battletech robot floating in space = sitting duck for a Freespace ship to obliterate...
Freespace fighter half-sunk in a swamp = sitting duck for a Battletech robot.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2002-10-21 05:17pm

Well, first I will put my subjective opinion about both WC and FS:

WC sucks! I hate it, I hate everything related to it. I hate Origin for making it. I hate Mark Hamill & Tom Wilson for acting in it. I hate computers because you could play WC in one

Freespace is the best space combat action game ever. It probably builds on all the good stuff from Wing Commander (ugh) and the X-Wing series of games (yay) and it gets it right. They have nifty beams instead of round red balls (WC) and you can actually fly thru holes in a large spaceship.

Now on the objective side:

I read the manual of Wing Commander and played 1 & 2, finished 2, played a demo of 3 & 4, played both Privateers (finished 1st), and I must say that ships are definitely faster: top speeds are about 450 mps (cruise speeds are in kps but that's plain idiotic... there's no reason to have a 'top cruising speed') and usually go up to 1000 and maybe more when using AB. The fastest FreeSpace ship on afterburners goes to about 160 mps. NOTE: on both examples - the simple fact that there's a CRUISE and a COMBAT speed means that, for some reason or the other, they CHOOSE to fight at those speeds. Also playability and stuff.

Now, I haven't read any examples of precise weapon strengths in WC. I think in FS at least missiles range from 3 Kt (swarming dumbfire missiles, used for distraction), 12 Kt (swarming guided, fired in groups of 4), going thru 40 & 50 for F&F missiles (you can take about 2 or 3 before dying on a good fighter) and up to 5000 Mt for the Harbinger bomb (creates a nifty shockwave effect that damages everything in its wake, but doesn't do much damage to fighters)

The only beam weapon that's rated is the Banshee:

An electromagnetic weapon; sends rapid pulses of exceptionally strong EM energy resulting in a 1.63 x 105 J blast that forces its way through any known shield technology and produces a dramatic shearing effect which quickly destroys the target ship’s materials; named for the fact that in an atmosphere, the pulse creates an atmospheric disturbance similar to a quasi-human scream at 180 dB; uses up a tremendous amount of available ship energy; already, it is has been used by many GTA fighter aces and test pilots as a coup de grace, although such a use for this massively powerful offensive weapon is officially viewed as poor sportsmanship by the GTA.

Again, I don't have any figures for the WC weapons. BTW whoever said the thing about 'phased' shields and weapons, I think it's a cheap technobabble cop-out (not to mention that it took the FreeSpace guys DAYS to adapt their weapons to the previously-unknown shields of the bad guys)

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2002-10-21 05:52pm

Ok, I take it back: WC is totally fucked up, and it shots itself in the foot.

From the Wing Commander manual: "Claw Marks"

HORNET
Class: Light Fighter
Length: 20 Meters
Mass: 12.5 tonnes
Maximum Velocity: 420 kps
Cruise Velocity: 300 kps
Acceleration: Good
Maximum Yaw: 8 dps
Maximum Pitch: 9 dps
Maximum Roll: 8 dps

Previously, in the same book:

Mission Objectives
Mission objectives vary with the different flight mission types. On Tiger's Claw, 98% of our flight missions fall into these five categories:
Defend: You are assigned to guard a stationary position - a capital ship, base, or jump point. Orbit that position at a distance of 2,500 meters. Do not, repeat, do not break to engage oncoming enemies until they reach a distance of 5,000 meters from the position you're protecting. That's not 5,000 meters from you.

So it's impossible for the ships to be engaging at the stated velocity (300-420 kps) and be consistent with the ranged stated. Also, even if it doesn't mean kilometers (since there's no such thing as kps or kph, the correct writing is Km/h or Km/s, for all those Imperial Unit freaks

) I think distances didn't close that quickly (300 m/s or so)... I guess I'd have to play it again to see if it's true, but that's nearly impossible given that that game doesn't care about slowing down the computer

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2002-10-21 06:26pm

Ok, kps means klicks per second.

So, I looked and found this on Usenet:

Kelvin Lim wrote:
>
> You're right... this is an interesting anomaly. A klick is generally
> considered to be the equivalent of a kilometre, but as you pointed
> out, it takes far too long to travel along the length of the Midway if
> that's the case. Origin, are you listening? They should take note of
> this, especially if the capital ships are supposed to be to scale now.

Origin was one of the first to realize this. They told us how to
calculate each game's klick by measuring how long it takes to travel the
length of a ship, factor in its supposed length and you can determine a
klick for that game. Each game is different.

On the same thread:

A fighter that has a speed of about 500 klicks per second uses about 30 seconds to fly along the Midway (2 km).
Therefore, the a klick would be around 0.13 metres, and the speed of the fighter would be 240 km/h.
Doesn't sound like much, does it?

In
500 kps ~= 65 m/s
1000 kps (afterburners) ~= 130 m/s

So, fighter velocities in both games are close enough.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Wing Commander vs FreeSpace

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Wing Commander vs FreeSpace