52 British Diplomats Slam Bush/Blair

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52 British Diplomats Slam Bush/Blair

Post by TheDarkling »

"Policy doomed to failure"

Well it is nice to see that those experienced in the field can see what the rest of us can, unfortunately I still can't see Blair revaluating the current take on the "special relationship".
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Post by EmperorChrostas the Cruel »

This should be retitled as:
"50 former British government officials who dedicated their lives to talk rather than action think action is wrong."
Forgetting that talk is utterly usless with action to back it up, and there is a time when talking is over, it is time to act. (When faced with those that don't talk, but act, and except to delay their enemies acting.)
Hmmmmmm.

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Post by EmperorChrostas the Cruel »

That's "without action" to back it up.
Without action, talk is merely begging and bribing. Parties acting reasonable require no talking to or negotiations whatsoever.
Hmmmmmm.

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Post by TheDarkling »

EmperorChrostas the Cruel wrote:This should be retitled as:
"50 former British government officials who dedicated their lives to talk rather than action think action is wrong."
Only if you wanted to completely misrepresent what they said in order to brush it aside without any logical response. That wasn't your intention was it?
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Post by Joe »

Great morale booster. :roll:
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Joe wrote:Great morale booster. :roll:
If they speak the truth then why suppress it?

We don't want "yes men", we want those that can see bullshit where it lands and consult on the best course alternative.

But if Bush and Blair want to dig further, by all means.
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Joe wrote:Great morale booster. :roll:
"The enemy are commiting suicide at the gates of insertnamehere we are victorious!"

That what you want?
"Prodesse Non Nocere."
"It's all about popularity really, if your invisible friend that tells you to invade places is called Napoleon, you're a loony, if he's called Jesus then you're the president."
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Post by Joe »

Keevan_Colton wrote:
Joe wrote:Great morale booster. :roll:
"The enemy are commiting suicide at the gates of insertnamehere we are victorious!"

That what you want?
Black or white, huh?
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Joe wrote: Black or white, huh?
No, pointing out that simply because something doesnt seem to be a "Great Morale Booster" does not make it any less valid than something being "Great for Morale" stops it being total bullshit.

The fact of the matter is, it's got a damn good point so fuck morale effects.
"Prodesse Non Nocere."
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Post by EmperorChrostas the Cruel »

They, (the ex diplomats) basicly said they thought it was a bad idea because it reversed a 50 year old policy of how the middle east was dealt with.
Well deal with this.
50 years ago, there was a Soviet Union, a cold war, no internet, no possibility of nuclear terrorism, no long standing result of the last 20 years of anti western hate propaganda diguised as education. There was no worldwide telecomunication, and no Al Jasira, pumping out well produced hate on a global scale.
The west was less dependant on foriegn imported oil, and no probable threat from biological attack, or radiological bombs.
Europe had a younger, (demographicly) more vigorous population, with less Muslims in their countries. It had a larger population relative to the middle east, and China. It wasn't staggering and stagnating under the weight of the welfare state, and overrgulation of business. It was flush with cash from US investment, and the major indudties were just starting to come into full production, having been recently built from the ground up, with the advantages of being the most modern on the planet.
Africa wasn't yet the festering shithole of tribalism, and diseases, and had enough of the infrastructure of colonialism to provide a higher standard of living. It wasn't yet suffering from decades of environmental damage, and civil wars.
In short, the major shift in policy toward the middle east is a long time coming, and overdue. There have been huge changes in the nature of the world, and keeping the old way going is wishful thinking at best, and willful ignorance at worst.
That we would continue the policies of the last 50 years withou revue or change is foolish, and denies the fact that the RATE of change is increasing.
The changes in the last 15 years are more than the changes in the preceeding 35.
Yet somehow, we are to keep the policies of the last 50 years in place because they are the policies these folk aprove of, are used to, and got used to.
Should we stick with the old policy of not resisting terrorists hijacking airplanes? Why change that one? Because the resulst are no different, and what was a wise policy, is now foolish, due to changed conditions.
Should we reliy on snctions and containment to keep threats to national security, because it worked in the past. I, Bush, Blair, and a whole shitload of others say NO! Conditions have changed, and so must our policy.

The world is changed, and policies must change with them. Tradition is no reason to continue a policy when the reasons for the policy are not the same. Policy is lagging behind change on very real economic, military, and political realties.
Reguardless of what some over the hill has been diplomats say.
It is a new world, and ALL policies are up for review, pending renewal and reinstatement, or going into the past with the conditions that spawned them.
So let's just bury our heads in the sand, and do like we have been doing, because it's what we were doing, and it is working so well NOW!
Or not.
Hmmmmmm.

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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Chrusty, choropodist or however you want it spelled, what a massive black-white fallacy.

They object to the fucking stupid choices being made, not just any change, change for the WORSE. You are going off on a "we must do SOMETHING" trip rather than "we must do something CONSTRUCTIVE" which shows what a fucking moron you are being.

Also, pretty please with sprinkles on top, format your fucking posts...a little space between lines or coherent paragraphs would be a lovely touch.
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Post by EmperorChrostas the Cruel »

I also think the war on drugs, gay marrage, and a few other long standing policies are up for review as well. Like who is an ally, and who is neutral, and who is an enemy, and how to treat all three. How schools are run, and who is teaching what.
When I say ALL, I mean ALL.
Hmmmmmm.

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Post by Keevan_Colton »

EmperorChrostas the Cruel wrote:I also think the war on drugs, gay marrage, and a few other long standing policies are up for review as well. Like who is an ally, and who is neutral, and who is an enemy, and how to treat all three. How schools are run, and who is teaching what.
When I say ALL, I mean ALL.
So, since shooting gays who seek to marry would be a change in policy it'd be wrong to call it fucking stupid because after all, it is A change and A change is needed.

That's basically what you've said about this objection to the shift in middle eastern policy after all... :roll:
"Prodesse Non Nocere."
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Post by EmperorChrostas the Cruel »

The diffenence Keevan, is you think the policy changes towards the middle east are bad changes. I don't. Just because all the folks you hang with agree with you, don't think all the folk there are agree with you.
You just don't seem to GET how popular the new way is, because you don't know people who do.
There was an old saying, recirculated around New York city in the 70s, when Richard Nixon landslided McGovern.
"How could he have been elected, I don't know a single person who voted for him?"
It shows more about how diverse the opinions of your group of friends are than how the population as a whole views them.
I KNOW others posess traits and opinions I don't have.

Libia shit themselves and gave up the goods. Syria is shitting themselves, as is Iran, and North Korea.
I am glad these folks are shitting themselves, you are not. I like the new changes, and you don't. A disproportionate amount of internet chatters fool as you do. You forget just how many don't use the internet, and agree with me. It is very close, but forums like this give a distorted view of the true demographics at work.
Hmmmmmm.

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Post by MKSheppard »

Keevan_Colton wrote: They object to the fucking stupid choices being made, not just any change, change for the WORSE.
I didn't know that allowing the Iraqi Olympic team to practice and compete
in Greece 2004 without the threat of TORTURE if they failed was for the WORSE, Colton.
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

MKSheppard wrote: I didn't know that allowing the Iraqi Olympic team to practice and compete
in Greece 2004 without the threat of TORTURE if they failed was for the WORSE, Colton.
I'm not suprised you're that fucking thick.

They are objecting to such things as invading a fucking nation without a proper plan on what to do once we'd invaded it and giving israel a free fucking card to flaunt international law you stupid fucker.
"Prodesse Non Nocere."
"It's all about popularity really, if your invisible friend that tells you to invade places is called Napoleon, you're a loony, if he's called Jesus then you're the president."
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Post by MKSheppard »

Keevan_Colton wrote: They are objecting to such things as invading a fucking nation without a proper plan on what to do once we'd invaded it
Text of Nationally Televised Address to Iraq by Ambassador Paul Bremer Apr 23rd

Good Evening.

Iraq faces a choice.

You could take the path which leads to a new Iraq, a peaceful, democratic Iraq, an Iraq of political freedom and economic opportunity, an Iraq where the majority is not Sunni, Shia, Arab, Kurd or Turcoman, but Iraqi. This is the path to a bright and hopeful future.

Or you could take the path which leads to the dark Iraq of the past where violence and fear rule, where power comes from a gun, and where only the powerful and ruthless are secure.

Thousands of conversations with you over the past year have made me certain that the vast majority of Iraqis reject the brutality and darkness of the old days. You have told me you want a new Iraq that honors the best of your past, but provides freedom, equality and opportunity for all.

The Coalition shares your vision of Iraq's future, a future of hope. Working together we can create the future you want.

But we have much to do as we walk this path.

The enemies, domestic and foreign, of your bright future are trying to force you to take the path that leads backwards to brute force, division and hatred. These anti-democratic forces will not disappear by themselves, but working together we can defeat them. We in the Coalition will do our part to restore security. But you must do your part, too.

If you do not defend your beloved country it will not be saved.

For the past three weeks my Coalition colleagues and I have asked Iraqi citizens all across the country--workers, students and professionals-about the current situation. Our military commanders are meeting regularly with local sheiks and notables to get their views on ways to reduce tensions. Your fellow citizens recommended ways to reduce tensions in Iraq.

We listened to you and tonight I want to tell you what we plan to do about the issues which are most on your minds: security, jobs, healing the nation's wounds and the political process.

Everyone we spoke to said security was their first priority and that we should use Iraqis to provide security.

Security is our top priority.

The threats to your security come from members of the former regime's intelligence services and Republican Guards, and from foreign terrorists. These groups do not want a democratic Iraq. They must be defeated.

The Coalition has over 130,000 troops providing security in Iraq. We recognize that we cannot provide real security unless Iraqis stand shoulder to shoulder with us.

Our training of an Iraqi Army and an Iraqi police service continues at an extraordinary pace.

Sunday the Minister of Defense announced his appointment of the top Iraqi generals in the new Iraqi Army. Iraqi officers, drawn almost entirely from the many honorable men of the former Iraqi Army, already command these forces. Over 70 percent of all the men in the Iraqi army and Iraq Civil Defense Corps served honorably in the former army. They have asked to serve their country again and we welcome their renewed service. In reconstituting these forces, we have also benefited from the skills of the many who served in armed groups that fought against Saddam's regime. We will continue to welcome these individuals into the army, the Iraqi Civil Defense Corps, the police and border guards.

The Minister of Defense informs me that he intends to have a meeting with vetted senior officers from the former regime next week to discuss how best to build the new Iraqi military establishment.

More of these officers with honorable records-from the former army and elsewhere-- will serve in the months ahead as your new Army grows. In the coming months, we will steadily strengthen our security partnership, placing increasing responsibility in the hands of Iraqis. By June 30, Iraqi soldiers in the ranks will report up through an Iraqi chain of command to Iraqi generals.

Every Iraqi can help defeat these threats. The Coalition has instituted a robust rewards program to pay those who provide information about foreign fighters and others threatening your security. If you have such information, you should provide it to the nearest police or military post.

When we transfer sovereignty to an Iraqi government on June 30, Coalition and Iraqi forces will continue to work as partners to defeat the terrorists. These forces, Coalition and Iraqi, will provide you and your families with security.

I understand from my conversations around the country that you are concerned by the situation in Fallujah.

So are we.

The situation in there has calmed in recent days. But those responsible for the lawlessness and unrest that began in Fallujah in February with the murder of 17 Iraqi policemen still bear heavy arms in the streets. Some of these men belonged to the banished instruments of Saddam's repression- - the former intelligence services and former Republican Guards. Others are foreigners working for professional terrorists like Abu Mussah al- Zarkawi. These are the people who have brought death and destruction to Fallujah. And Fallujah cannot be peaceful while such men remain at liberty.

To reduce the suffering in Fallujah I have twice sent my deputy along with Governing Council members to negotiate with the city's leaders. These leaders say they do not support those who are holding the city hostage from within. These talks have eased access to hospitals, allowed ambulances to evacuate the dead and wounded. Medicine and food have come in and we have permitted doctors, police, civil defense members and technicians to enter the city to provide critical services to its citizens.

We call upon the people of Fallujah to support the legitimate Iraqi authorities in bringing this crisis to an end. We hope that they join in ridding the city of heavy military weapons. Those who turn in weapons voluntarily will not be arrested for weapons violations.

The current ceasefire is a good start, but without exception, armed bands in the city must submit to national authority. If these bands do not surrender their military weapons and instead continue to use them against Iraqi and Coalition Security forces, major hostilities could resume on short notice.

Militias also threaten security. Ultimately, Iraq cannot be secure, free and united if people can set up armed militias and define the law of the land to suit their own ambitions. That is why all armed elements in Iraq must be controlled by the central government, not just now, but during the next government and the next and the next.

This applies equally to those armed groups who fought valiantly against Saddam's tyranny. For some time we have been engaged in talks with these groups over how their members can be integrated into Iraq's armed forces or move into civilian life. I urge our partners in these talks to move quickly to comply with the Transitional Administrative Law, including those provisions which prohibit militias and other armed groups.

Militias present a particular problem in Najaf and Karbala. We in the Coalition recognize the holy nature of these cities. I add my voice to those of the religious authorities who have called for disarmament in these holy cities. We are prepared to work with these authorities to achieve disarmament. Armed militias should not be allowed to exploit holy shrines to advance personal political interests.

Earlier this week, a group of professors told me their concerns about those detained by the Coalition. It is a familiar complaint. During the war and since, Coalition forces have detained thousands of Iraqis, and hundreds of foreigners. But we have already released over 75 percent of those detained.

I understand your concerns and want to tell you what we are doing. We have simplified the processing of detainees. All cases are reviewed within 72 hours by an attorney. In many cases, the person detained is released immediately. Two months ago, we established a special board to expedite the review of all detainees. Since then we have released over 2,500 detainees. We give highest priority to reviewing the records of female detainees. Right now fewer than 10 females are detained. Of course we will not release any detainee guilty of serious crimes, as Saddam did when he flooded the streets with criminals in 2002.

Many of you have told us that you are frustrated by the lack of information about individual detainees. So we now publish a complete list in Arabic daily on the Coalition website. This list is available at Coalition Information centers across the country and we are going to post it regularly at the country's police stations and courthouses starting on May 10.

A couple of days ago I met with 25 Iraqi women who told me that their primary concern was security against common criminals. Criminals, many of them released from prison by Saddam Hussein before the war, continue to prey on innocent Iraqis. The answer is to build a highly capable police force and we are doing that. The Coalition, using funds provided by the American people, has embarked on the biggest police training program in history. Two thousand highly trained police officers will graduate from the police academies every month from now until next February. They will make your lives more secure from criminals.

A number of different Iraqi groups have told us of their concerns about border security. These concerns are well founded. Iraq's long borders, especially those with Iran and Syria are difficult to defend and there is evidence that foreign terrorists are coming into Iraq. But here too we are working towards solutions.

When interim government takes office on June 30 that government will have the equipment, staff, training and materials necessary to operate each of its 20 major border crossing points. We expect to have 16,000 Iraqis devoted to border security by June 30. Until that time we are going to limit and control the number of people crossing into Iraq from other nations. Additionally, the Coalition is providing Iraq with sophisticated technical systems to help screen and track foreign visitors.

The lack of security affects everyone, even those not directly touched by violence. Saboteurs and insurgents attack the country's power lines and oil facilities. These attacks deny electricity to you and your family and oil revenues to all Iraqis. We are working with Iraqis to improve protection of your national infrastructure. Today over 20,000 Iraqis in specialized electricity and oil security forces work with Coalition Forces to guard your national property against these attacks.

The second subject we have heard from you about is economic security. For too long, Saddam used economic resources to create divisions between Iraq's people and regions. Some were punished, others were rewarded. Now, we have the chance to correct the terrible economic legacies of the past and ensure opportunities for all Iraqis.

We understand that Iraqis need jobs and the Coalition is working to create them. Since Liberation, the Coalition has completed over 20,000 individual reconstruction projects worth billions of dollars. These projects have employed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis building and renovating schools, orphanages and medical clinics; roads, bridges and dams. Iraqis from Dohuk to Basra have worked on these projects and millions have benefited from them. Thousands of additional projects will be financed by over 19 billion dollars from America.

I have told my colleagues in the Coalition to accelerate these projects everywhere in country. We expect that they will create over a million and a half jobs over the next year. I have instructed the Coalition to give priority to Iraqi firms whenever possible in order to create as many opportunities for Iraqis as possible. To date, the firms working on these projects have given contracts to several hundred Iraqi firms. I have also give our military commanders and Coalition offices around the country an additional $500 million to spend on reconstruction projects which can be quickly completed, like fixing roads or schools, and which will provide jobs for you. Already our officials are meeting with provincial and municipal leaders to hear their priorities.

But Iraq's reconstruction requires more than security, more than bricks and mortar, more than jobs.

While this is a time for all Iraqis to work together on the future, some things must not be forgotten, must not be forgiven. You have spoken to us on this subject, too.

I know that memories of Saddam's tyrannies haunt many of you. I have stood at the edge of the mass graves in Hillah. I have looked into the faces of the survivors in Halabja. I have seen the torture chambers and rape rooms in Saddam's prisons. I have seen these things and I think about the horror of them. I think about them, but you have lived them.

It is justice you demand and it is justice you will have.

That is why the Governing Council created the Iraqi Special Tribunal-- to try those accused of grievous crimes during the past administration, people like Saddam, "Chemical" Ali and others. This Iraqi court, run by Iraqis, has just appointed seven judges and five prosecutors. As soon as the court asks us, the Coalition will turn these criminals over to face justice in this Iraqi court.

To further the cause of justice for you, I pledge to give all possible assistance to the Iraqi Special Tribunal as it prepares for these trials. The United States will pay $75 million for the court's annual budget and we will provide judicial training for the newly appointed judges and prosecutors.

This Special Tribunal serves a purpose beyond bringing criminals to justice. The Tribunal becomes a national remembrance for the hundreds of thousands murdered by Saddam's regime.

We must attend to the spirit.We must recall suffering; we must honor sacrifice.

To commemorate those who suffered the atrocities of Saddam's regime, I have directed the establishment of a National Commission for Remembrance. This Commission will be part of a broader effort to come to terms with Iraq's immediate past. The Commission will administer a $10 million fund for remembrance and will consider proposals from across the nation on how best to memorialize the suffering of Iraq's many communities under Saddam. In addition the Commission will seek to raise private funds to establish a national museum in Baghdad to ensure that the nation forever recalls Saddam's depredations. The commission and museum will probably want to focus their efforts on the sufferings during the 1991 Intifada, the 1988 Anfal campaign and Saddam's "Arabization" campaign that savaged Kurds, Arabs and Turcomans alike.

Remembering is indispensable both as a comfort to the oppressed and tyrannized and as a cautionary tale for the future. It is necessary protection against future tyranny, but it is not enough by itself.

The Baath Party poisoned Iraqi political life. Baathism was one of the most brutal instruments of Saddam's tyranny. There is no room in the new Iraq for Baathist ideology, for Baathist criminals. Banning the party and removing from public life those who used it to commit crimes was necessary and remains necessary if we are to achieve your vision of a democratic Iraq.

But many Iraqis have complained to me that debaathification policy has been applied unevenly and unjustly. I have looked into these complaints and they are legitimate. The debaathification policy was and is sound. It does not need to be changed. It is the right policy for Iraq. But it has been poorly implemented. The requirement to join the party was strongly enforced among teachers and university professors. A group of teachers told me yesterday that poor execution of the debaathification process has had a severe impact on teachers and university professors.

We cannot shortchange the children of Iraq. They are your future. I have discussed this matter with the Minister of Education, the Minister of Higher Education and with the Chairman of the Debaathification Commission. We have agreed that decisions made by local appeals committees of the Ministry of Education will be effective immediately. This will allow thousands of teachers to return to work. Thousands more will begin receiving pensions this week. Those primary and secondary school teachers formerly of the rank of firqah members whose appeals have not yet been heard will have their appeal adjudicated within 20 days. I have asked the Commission to handle the cases of hundreds of university professors with the same urgency. Professors who did not use their posts to intimidate others or commit crimes should be allowed to return to work promptly.

You have asked us about the future.

In our consultations, many Iraqi groups asked whether the occupation is really going to end on June 30. They asked what kind of a government will follow.

President Bush promised the Iraqi people that the occupation would end on June 30. And it will end on June 30. But our military forces will remain, working alongside Iraqi forces as partners to provide security after that date.

The Coalition Provisional Authority will dissolve. The Iraqi government that replaces it will be a fully sovereign one, invested with the authority to govern Iraqi until elections are held in January 2005. This government, described by UN envoy Lakhdar Brahimi, will be made up of competent people of the highest integrity and reflecting the broad diversity of the Iraqi people.

You will determine what kind of government will follow this interim period. The process for you to create a government of your choice is explained in the Transitional Administrative Law.

Under the Transitional Administrative Law, you will have free, fair and national elections for a National Assembly in January. That assembly will have responsibility for choosing a government. The same Assembly will also write Iraq's new, permanent Constitution. In writing your new, permanent constitution the National Assembly will guided but not bound by the Transitional Administrative Law. This will be your constitution. Your elected representatives will write it and you will approve it and it will determine how you are governed.

Much is going to happen in the 10 weeks before Iraqi sovereignty.

In the days and months ahead the Coalition will work with you to provide security, justice and prosperity for all Iraqis.

Such an Iraq will honor Iraq's history, a proud and ancient history stretching back to the beginnings of civilization.

Such an Iraq will honor the generations who came before you.

Such an Iraq will serve the generations who will come after you.

Such an Iraq will place Iraqis securely on the path to a future of hope for all.

Mabruk al Iraq al Jadeed.

Aash al-Iraq!

**************************8

Uh huh, no proper plan, huh, you fuckwit? Looks like we're doing
okay here.
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Post by EmperorChrostas the Cruel »

Allowing gays marrage is a change, asshat, and that was what I meant, but was not specific. Again you think the worst of me, while I give you the benfit of the doubt, and say we have more in common than you think.
Did you think I meant that reevaluating the war on drugs automaticly means increasing the effort, and punishments meted out? NOT!
I think there is no such thing as a victimless crime, before you straw man me on that one.

As for reevalutaing friend, foe, or fence sitters, I feel that any state that has state run media, and churns out state sponsored anti American rhetoric should get no foreign aid, and no citizens of that state should be allowed into the USA for any porposes besides diplomacy.
After all, we wouldn't want the great Satan corrupting you youths any more, would we? Jordan, and Egypt should be cut off from trade, or non diplomatic travel, just like North Korea. Same as Saudi Arabia, those lying two face hypocrits.
Go to the UK or EU for your education, tourism, or busness. If we are so bad that your government sees fit to badmouth us, stay home.
Hmmmmmm.

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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Chropodist, you are advocating that change for the sake of change is how things should be as time passes and conditions alter. However, the changes in policy have not been for the better, particularly in relation to Israel which is the main focus of the letter.

Giving support to the actions of Israel goes against the policies britain has held for nearly half a century, and which have been held with good reason. Now, we are blindly following a unilateral one sided approach being endorsed by Bush and Sharon which is you actually read the letter is their key concern.

They also have concerns relating to the matters going on in Iraq, such as the use of heavy weapons and the political posturing mostly coming washing out of washington. Here in the UK for example, we have had terrorist attacks using mortars in the past, at no point have we even entertained the notion of using artillery counter-fire to solve these problems. The US however, does think this is a valid approach and we are being dragged down with them.

These things are of course such wonderful sucesses in the middle east which are not in the least causing problems (Falluja and places such as the Occupied Territories or people caught in the crossfire not withstanding of course) :roll:
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