Hammtramck, MI to allow muslim prayer calls

[Chardok]

Hamtramck may approve Muslim prayer call

Longtime residents say proposal is affront to city

By Ron French / The Detroit News

HAMMTRAMCK — Along with pierogi and paczki, Hamtramck may soon be known for its Islamic calls to worship.

The City Council is expected today to pass a noise ordinance amendment permitting mosques to issue the traditional call to prayer over loud speakers.

It’s another sign of change in this traditionally Polish community of 23,000, which has become a magnet for immigrants of all colors and creeds in recent years.

For decades, Hamtramck has been predominantly Polish. But in recent years, store signs in Polish have been joined by signs written in Bengali and Arabic.

Now, the request by the Bangladeshi al-Islah mosque for permission to air the Arabic call to prayer via loudspeakers five times a day has revealed tensions among the groups.

“They can believe whatever they want to, but I’m against them pushing their content into my head like brainwashing,” said Joanne Golen, 68, a lifelong Hamtramck resident. “There are seven mosques in the city, and I’ll be in the middle of all of them.”

The five daily calls to worship last about two minutes. The recorded calls are broadcast over loudspeakers at mosques in Dearborn, which has one of the largest concentrations of Arab-Americans in the country.

“I don’t think people in the city of Hamtramck are going to be annoyed,” said Imad Hamad, regional director of the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee, based in Dearborn. “It’s not a loud noise.”

Though the calls to worship are in Arabic, Golen said she’s offended by words that praise Allah.

“He’s not my true God,” Golen said. “I can’t stay locked in my house with cotton in my ears every time they do it.”

“Hamtramck should live up to freedom of religion and religious expression, and celebrate our rich diversity and tolerance,” Hamad said.

You can reach Ron French at (313) 222-2175 or rfrench@ detnews.com.

What is your take?

Mine is this: Not just no, but hell no. I heard an argument on the radio from a muslim woman who likened the wailing calls to prayer to church bells. there is no comparison. You are likening a clear, musical tone to a tinny scream over el-cheapo brand loudspeakers from no less than FIVE mosques? FIVE times a day, SEVEN days a week, in a town only a few square miles? How about not just no, but fuck you and HELL no.

[Col. Crackpot]

well this was inevitable. i really don't know how i feel. I suppose there is a difference between church bells once a day, and someone singing into a loudspeaker 5 times a day. Seems a long way to go to appease the minority. Can't they just use the radio to call people to prayer?

[BoredShirtless]

Big whoop [even if I lived in Hamtramck]. If the amendment does pass, the non Muslim residents would pretty quickly adapt to ignore the calls on the conscience level. Like the sound of traffic. Or chatter in an open office. Though I'm sure you'd get your bigots who won't let it go.

[Col. Crackpot]

Big whoop [even if I lived in Hamtramck]. If the amendment does pass, the non Muslim residents would pretty quickly adapt to ignore the calls on the conscience level. Like the sound of traffic. Or chatter in an open office. Though I'm sure you'd get your bigots who won't let it go.

then there are those who aren't bigots, just opposed to the folly of organized religion and it's stranglehold on the minds of the impressionable.

[BoredShirtless]

Big whoop [even if I lived in Hamtramck]. If the amendment does pass, the non Muslim residents would pretty quickly adapt to ignore the calls on the conscience level. Like the sound of traffic. Or chatter in an open office. Though I'm sure you'd get your bigots who won't let it go.

then there are those who aren't bigots, just opposed to the folly of organized religion

I can't argue with that; when you add everything done in history in the name of a religion, the net worth of all religions is inarguably a negative.

and it's stranglehold on the minds of the impressionable.

Oh please. Like calls to pray is going to change the status quo.

[Col. Crackpot]

Big whoop [even if I lived in Hamtramck]. If the amendment does pass, the non Muslim residents would pretty quickly adapt to ignore the calls on the conscience level. Like the sound of traffic. Or chatter in an open office. Though I'm sure you'd get your bigots who won't let it go.

then there are those who aren't bigots, just opposed to the folly of organized religion

I can't argue with that; when you add everything done in history in the name of a religion, the net worth of all religions is inarguably a negative.

and it's stranglehold on the minds of the impressionable.

Oh please. Like calls to pray is going to change the status quo.

you just argued both sides in the same post? feeling okay today?

[BoredShirtless]

you just argued both sides in the same post? feeling okay today?

Yeah, you? Why can't I argue on both sides of religion? As long as I don't contradict myself, which I didn't:
1. Religion is crap
2. Amendments to laws for proposals which don't actively interfere in our lives should be passed. Why not?

I'm an atheist, but I also respect peoples rights to practice religion.

[HemlockGrey]

Church bells annoy the fuck out of me to. If I hung a giant fucking bell on my house and rang it whenever I wanted to in a residential neighborhood, my neighbors would start calling for my blood. But if it's on a church, then, oh, it's fine and nice and perfect...

[BoredShirtless]

Church bells annoy the fuck out of me to. If I hung a giant fucking bell on my house and rang it whenever I wanted to in a residential neighborhood, my neighbors would start calling for my blood. But if it's on a church, then, oh, it's fine and nice and perfect...

Well, church bells go off on a schedule, which is a little different to you ringing your bell willy nilly.

[Chardok]

Church bells also go off MAYBE once a day (Probably more like once on wednesday and 2x on sunday) this is 5 times a DAY seven days a week. While the principal is the same, the frequency is decidedly not.

there is still the fundamental differences between a church bell, which has been around for literally CENTURIES and a tinny loudpseaker ahich has been around for maybe, what 100 years, and I seriously doubt that, back in the day, there was an imam standing on the corner, shouting at the top of his lungs,

AAAAAAAAAAALAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH HO AKBAAAAAaaAaAaAaAaaaRRRRRR

AaAAaaAaaaaaaAAAAaAaAaAALaaaaAAAaaAAaaAaAaaaaah ho AaAaBaaaAaAaaAaaAaaaaAr

Forgive me for being shallow, but that's my problem with it. it's wailing (How can it be described as anything else?) for several minutes Vs. One note sustained for a measure or two. I mean, come on! Try replacing the gregorian chants in the Halo theme with "Dogs barking jingle bells" That's about what were doing here. (False analogy?)

[BoredShirtless]

Church bells also go off MAYBE once a day (Probably more like once on wednesday and 2x on sunday)

Depends. Here in Stuttgart, there's a church which goes off at 11am and 2pm. Twice daily. And that's not including the hourly chime. My collegaue noticed it when he first got here, but now he doesn't even notice.

this is 5 times a DAY seven days a week. While the principal is the same, the frequency is decidedly not.

While frequency must be considered, I don't think several minutes a day is going to hurt anybody.

there is still the fundamental differences between a church bell, which has been around for literally CENTURIES and a tinny loudpseaker ahich has been around for maybe, what 100 years,

Irrelevant.

and I seriously doubt that, back in the day, there was an imam standing on the corner, shouting at the top of his lungs,

AAAAAAAAAAALAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH HO AKBAAAAAaaAaAaAaAaaaRRRRRR

AaAAaaAaaaaaaAAAAaAaAaAALaaaaAAAaaAAaaAaAaaaaah ho AaAaBaaaAaAaaAaaAaaaaAr

Who cares either way?

Forgive me for being shallow, but that's my problem with it. it's wailing (How can it be described as anything else?) for several minutes Vs. One note sustained for a measure or two. I mean, come on!

YOU come on. Why don't you start giving genuine reasons why it'd be a bad idea [i.e. would it interfere in your life? Stop you from functioning in the same manner as you had before?], instead of whining about history and what not.

[RedImperator]

Before they had loudspeakers, they DID have a guy who'd stand at the top of the minarets and yell. That's what the minarets are for.

There's no practical difference between this and church bells except for the frequency of the call. And I don't know about where you guys live, but around here, churches will ring their bells for minutes at a time multiple times a day on Sunday--it's not just one or two notes and then they're done. The mosques have already agreed they won't do it early in the morning or late at night, so there goes the principal objection most people would have. There's no way, under the First Amendment, that you can allow churches to ring bells but not allow mosques to broadcast the call to prayer.

Oh, and for the record, many churches today play recordings of bells ringing...over loudspeakers.

[Rogue 9]

Amazing as it is, I'm with BoredShirtless on this one. Its not going to hurt anyone. And the people in the article objecting on religious grounds are standing on some pretty thin ice there.

And for the record, the church in my town uses real bells. And the acolyte monks go ring them themselves. Listening to bell ringing practice can be rather interesting with beginning classes.

[BoredShirtless]

Amazing as it is, I'm with BoredShirtless on this one.

Yeah, that's truly an amazing thing.

[Stormbringer]

If you're going allow church bells (and they do) then there's no legal or moral difference in allowing mosques to broadcast their calls to prayer. It's worth noting that the principle opposition to this are the hard-line christians, mostly old country-style catholics, that are raising a fuss. And mostly for as moronic a reason as those quoted in the article.

[Chardok]

Yeah. I guess I stand molested. but I still find a fundamental difference between church bells and someone screaming "Allah Ackbar" I don't see church bells as screming JESUS IS GOD or GOD RULES! but, Allah Ackbar, OTOH, is completely different.

[Rogue 9]

Amazing as it is, I'm with BoredShirtless on this one.

Yeah, that's truly an amazing thing.

Well, seriously. Think back. Have we ever agreed on anything before?

[Stormbringer]

Yeah. I guess I stand molested. but I still find a fundamental difference between church bells and someone screaming "Allah Ackbar" I don't see church bells as screming JESUS IS GOD or GOD RULES! but, Allah Ackbar, OTOH, is completely different.

How?

[BoredShirtless]

Well, seriously. Think back. Have we ever agreed on anything before?

Don't know. Whatever.

[MKSheppard]

I wonder in how many muslim majority areas that churches are allowed
to ring their bells across the middle east

[BoredShirtless]

I wonder in how many muslim majority areas that churches are allowed
to ring their bells across the middle east

That'd be interesting to know. I wonder what's the deal in Iran. They have a good sized Christian population.

[Rogue 9]

I wonder in how many muslim majority areas that churches are allowed
to ring their bells across the middle east

That'd be interesting to know. I wonder what's the deal in Iran. They have a good sized Christian population.

"Help help, I'm bein' repressed!"

[Chardok]

How?

From a purely practical standpoint, I don't want anyone yelling at me to do ANYTHING for ANY religion, right? The same way I don't like listening to Snoop Dogg from two blocks away(which is why there are noise ordinances against this sort of thing, but doesn't apply to church bells apparently). Church bells to me=ding dong ding dong. Nothing there, right? What does it signify? I dunno. just sounds like ding dong to me. Someone screaming in arabic "GOD BE WITH YOU" 5 times a day is someone screaming at me 5 times a day, regardless of the message. Let's say that someone blew a note on an oboe, for instance, for several seconds a day on a loudspeaker...It means, for muslims, Say, for them to spend the rest of the week face down in the mud. Doesn't mean dick to me, it's just a note on an oboe.

From a purely PERSONAL standpoint, which, I know has no bearing on this discussion, I LIKE the sound of church bells. I do NOT like screechy, tinny wailing.

Here's a sort of obscure sort of correlation...Many of the laws in the U.S. center around Reasonability. Would a reasonable man have done this, that or the other, right? Can you reasonably say that Church Bells~>Imam yelling alllllllllllllllaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh ho Akbaaar? Because that's really the point most people are making, right? We have church bells, so there should be imam yelling.


We also use bells on town squares to announce the time of day in many places (One ding= one o'clock, etc. etc. etc.) would the town be so receptive to someone getting on a loudspeaker and yelling:

"IT'S ONE OCLOCK, ONE O'CLOCK!!! HEY, IT'S ONE O'CLOCK, EVERYBODY!!!"

[Superman]

Let's say that someone blew a note on an oboe, for instance, for several seconds a day on a loudspeaker...

Oh, now your putting down oboes...

[Rye]

They should just get the congregation walkie talkies or mobile phones or something.

No, I don't think they should get to wail into loudspeakers at 6 AM, that would piss me off immensely when I don't want the equivalent of the Lord's Prayer along with a call to join christianity when I'm lucky enough to have a lie-in.

I wouldn't want church bells at that time either, to be honest.