A common belief I stumble upon is that Israel has something to do with the war in Iraq, and that the Israeli gov't and their supporters probably are to blame for the whole affair.
I then ask.... how is this possible? I recall reading that Saddam Hussein once threatened with attacking Israel, meaning that Israel obviously would have an interest in ousting him... but is there any evidence that the USA invaded another country just because of pressure from a close ally?
Israel's involvement in the Iraq War
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Peregrin Toker
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Israel's involvement in the Iraq War
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Rogue 9
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In the first Gulf War the United States went to a shitload of trouble to keep Israel out of the war because the Saudis wouldn't fight on the same side as Israel. If this was about Israel, Kuwait would have told us to go screw ourselves and refused to allow their bases to be used in the operation.
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EmperorChrostas the Cruel
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It's the JEWZ!
"A common belief I stumble apon...."
http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD70004
Yes quite common, and well publicised.
* We should be troubled that, in this bloody month, none of the insurgents waved an alternative constitution - unless we count their perversion of the Koran. None of those violent men is fighting for freedom - they're fighting to strangle liberty in the cradle. They are, without exception, forces of reaction, not liberation, no matter how madly al-Jazeera twists the facts.
* Nor did the general Arab population or its leaders take a public stand against those who would renew their oppression. And those who will not defend their own freedom do not deserve to be defended by others.
Operation Iraqi Freedom has been, among other things, an attempt to give Arabs hope for a better future. The ultimate outcome won't be known for years, but we must prepare ourselves for the possibility that the Arabs are going to fail themselves again.
With sufficient troops, we can force Iraq's Arabs to behave. But we can't force them to succeed.
Ultimately, Iraq is not a test of the limits of American power. When necessary, we can do whatever must be done for our security and prosperity. Our use of force, in Iraq and elsewhere, has been remarkably - even foolishly - restrained.
If Iraq collapses into medieval fantasies and blood feuds, we still may be proud of having given this crippled civilization a last, great chance to heal itself. We've made mistakes, but their impact is minor compared to the unwillingness of Iraq's Arabs, Sunni or Shi'a, to build a free and civil society of their own.
In the United States, campus-generated political correctness was never more than a joke - capable of turning somber conservatives purple but unable to alter anything that matters. The far more dangerous form of political correctness is that which prevails in the dream-world of diplomacy: We pretend that all civilizations have equal merit.
But they don't. It's time to face up to the functional and moral collapse of the Arab world - if we can't describe the problem honestly, we shall never deal with it effectively.
Arab civilization has failed.
Disguised in part by the trappings of oil wealth, the Middle East has become humanity's sinkhole, less promising, if richer, than Africa. But no facade of garish hotels in the hollow states that line the Persian Gulf, and no amount of full-page advertisements funded by the Saudi government, can hide the truth any longer: The Arab Middle East has become the world's first entirely parasitical culture; all it does is to imitate poorly, consume voraciously, spit hatred, export death and create nothing.
Arab civilization offers its people no promising future, only rhetoric about a past whose achievements have been as exaggerated as they were impermanent. The present is a bloody, heartless muddle.
For all the oil wealth and expatriate university degrees, for all the hired-in expertise and Western "engagement," Arab civilization has degenerated to a point where it provides the rest of humanity nothing useful of its own design - while offering its own citizens only a culture of blame, corruption and lethargy.
It's a matter of culture, not race. In the free atmosphere of America, Arabs do as well as anyone else. All populations have their share of talent - but the oppressive environment of the Middle East enervates those individuals it does not crush entirely.
Iraq has been given a chance to break free of the thrall of a bankrupt culture, to establish a rule-of-law democratic government observant of human rights. But the chances are increasingly good that Iraq's Arabs will fail to achieve and maintain even minimal standards of good governance.
The time has not yet come, but, contrary to the sort of diplomatic wisdom that so long protected Saddam, we can walk away if Iraq's Arabs refuse to help themselves. And we can break up the country to protect the Kurds - a far better solution than turning Iraq over to the venal brokers of the United Nations.
The failure of Arab civilization in our time is the greatest such disaster in mankind's history. And, bitter though we find the proposition, the failure is so colossal that it cannot be neatly contained. Whether in Iraq today or elsewhere tomorrow, we cannot fully extract ourselves from this problem simply because our enemies won't let go.
If Iraq chooses failure, we can leave. But we'll be back, somewhere in the Middle East. Because, as we saw on 9/11, the Middle East will continue to come to us. Blame is the opium of the Arabs, and the sweetest blame for their failures is that directed at the United States (and, of course, Israel). It is our power itself, not its uses, that enrages Arabs trapped in their self-made weakness.
The oft-cited examples of the Arab world's problems, from a lack of interest in secular education and a poor work ethic to staggering corruption and the oppression of women, are symptoms, not root causes, of Arab failure. Past a certain analytical point, we come up against the wall of our own taboos - we cannot admit that the psychological premises of an entire civilization might be dysfunctional. Arab failure isn't about that which has been done to the Middle East, but that which the Middle East has done to itself.
Iraq still has a chance, if a slimmer one than we had hoped. But even if Iraq's Arabs disappoint our ambitions, our efforts will have been worthy and our losses not in vain. Intervention was unavoidable, whatever the critics say. Continued passivity in the face of the Middle East's implosion would only have made the price higher in the end.
We all would be better off were the Arabs to surprise us by building healthy, prosperous, modern societies. We would be foolish not to wish them well. But we would be equally foolish not to prepare ourselves for the consequences of their accelerating failure.
The above is credited to:
Ralph Peters is the author of "Beyond Baghdad: Postmodern War and Peace."
"A common belief I stumble apon...."
http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD70004
Yes quite common, and well publicised.
* We should be troubled that, in this bloody month, none of the insurgents waved an alternative constitution - unless we count their perversion of the Koran. None of those violent men is fighting for freedom - they're fighting to strangle liberty in the cradle. They are, without exception, forces of reaction, not liberation, no matter how madly al-Jazeera twists the facts.
* Nor did the general Arab population or its leaders take a public stand against those who would renew their oppression. And those who will not defend their own freedom do not deserve to be defended by others.
Operation Iraqi Freedom has been, among other things, an attempt to give Arabs hope for a better future. The ultimate outcome won't be known for years, but we must prepare ourselves for the possibility that the Arabs are going to fail themselves again.
With sufficient troops, we can force Iraq's Arabs to behave. But we can't force them to succeed.
Ultimately, Iraq is not a test of the limits of American power. When necessary, we can do whatever must be done for our security and prosperity. Our use of force, in Iraq and elsewhere, has been remarkably - even foolishly - restrained.
If Iraq collapses into medieval fantasies and blood feuds, we still may be proud of having given this crippled civilization a last, great chance to heal itself. We've made mistakes, but their impact is minor compared to the unwillingness of Iraq's Arabs, Sunni or Shi'a, to build a free and civil society of their own.
In the United States, campus-generated political correctness was never more than a joke - capable of turning somber conservatives purple but unable to alter anything that matters. The far more dangerous form of political correctness is that which prevails in the dream-world of diplomacy: We pretend that all civilizations have equal merit.
But they don't. It's time to face up to the functional and moral collapse of the Arab world - if we can't describe the problem honestly, we shall never deal with it effectively.
Arab civilization has failed.
Disguised in part by the trappings of oil wealth, the Middle East has become humanity's sinkhole, less promising, if richer, than Africa. But no facade of garish hotels in the hollow states that line the Persian Gulf, and no amount of full-page advertisements funded by the Saudi government, can hide the truth any longer: The Arab Middle East has become the world's first entirely parasitical culture; all it does is to imitate poorly, consume voraciously, spit hatred, export death and create nothing.
Arab civilization offers its people no promising future, only rhetoric about a past whose achievements have been as exaggerated as they were impermanent. The present is a bloody, heartless muddle.
For all the oil wealth and expatriate university degrees, for all the hired-in expertise and Western "engagement," Arab civilization has degenerated to a point where it provides the rest of humanity nothing useful of its own design - while offering its own citizens only a culture of blame, corruption and lethargy.
It's a matter of culture, not race. In the free atmosphere of America, Arabs do as well as anyone else. All populations have their share of talent - but the oppressive environment of the Middle East enervates those individuals it does not crush entirely.
Iraq has been given a chance to break free of the thrall of a bankrupt culture, to establish a rule-of-law democratic government observant of human rights. But the chances are increasingly good that Iraq's Arabs will fail to achieve and maintain even minimal standards of good governance.
The time has not yet come, but, contrary to the sort of diplomatic wisdom that so long protected Saddam, we can walk away if Iraq's Arabs refuse to help themselves. And we can break up the country to protect the Kurds - a far better solution than turning Iraq over to the venal brokers of the United Nations.
The failure of Arab civilization in our time is the greatest such disaster in mankind's history. And, bitter though we find the proposition, the failure is so colossal that it cannot be neatly contained. Whether in Iraq today or elsewhere tomorrow, we cannot fully extract ourselves from this problem simply because our enemies won't let go.
If Iraq chooses failure, we can leave. But we'll be back, somewhere in the Middle East. Because, as we saw on 9/11, the Middle East will continue to come to us. Blame is the opium of the Arabs, and the sweetest blame for their failures is that directed at the United States (and, of course, Israel). It is our power itself, not its uses, that enrages Arabs trapped in their self-made weakness.
The oft-cited examples of the Arab world's problems, from a lack of interest in secular education and a poor work ethic to staggering corruption and the oppression of women, are symptoms, not root causes, of Arab failure. Past a certain analytical point, we come up against the wall of our own taboos - we cannot admit that the psychological premises of an entire civilization might be dysfunctional. Arab failure isn't about that which has been done to the Middle East, but that which the Middle East has done to itself.
Iraq still has a chance, if a slimmer one than we had hoped. But even if Iraq's Arabs disappoint our ambitions, our efforts will have been worthy and our losses not in vain. Intervention was unavoidable, whatever the critics say. Continued passivity in the face of the Middle East's implosion would only have made the price higher in the end.
We all would be better off were the Arabs to surprise us by building healthy, prosperous, modern societies. We would be foolish not to wish them well. But we would be equally foolish not to prepare ourselves for the consequences of their accelerating failure.
The above is credited to:
Ralph Peters is the author of "Beyond Baghdad: Postmodern War and Peace."
Hmmmmmm.
"It is happening now, It has happened before, It will surely happen again."
Oldest member of SD.net, not most mature.
Brotherhood of the Monkey
"It is happening now, It has happened before, It will surely happen again."
Oldest member of SD.net, not most mature.
Brotherhood of the Monkey
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Rogue 9
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Interesting... Would it be a violation of anyone's copyright or anything if I spread that around a bit?
It's Rogue, not Rouge!
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EmperorChrostas the Cruel
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I realy don't know. I got this from a link from realclearpolotics.com
I hope I am not causing any problems and the author wants his work disseminated widely. He did publish this in a national newspaper, so I don't think he wants it a secret, or is charging per read like a novel. The newspaper might have some propriatory intersests.
I hope I am not causing any problems and the author wants his work disseminated widely. He did publish this in a national newspaper, so I don't think he wants it a secret, or is charging per read like a novel. The newspaper might have some propriatory intersests.
Hmmmmmm.
"It is happening now, It has happened before, It will surely happen again."
Oldest member of SD.net, not most mature.
Brotherhood of the Monkey
"It is happening now, It has happened before, It will surely happen again."
Oldest member of SD.net, not most mature.
Brotherhood of the Monkey
Re: Israel's involvement in the Iraq War
Like numerous other countries Israel provided intelligence upon Iraq’s WMD which turned out not to be entirely accurate, in fact it was so wrong that again like a few other countries they had a bit of an inquiry. Also bear in mind that many of the most vocal neo-con hawks (Perle, Wolfowitz and so on) are very pro-Israel, add in the Israeli governments desire to see Saddam go and you have enough evidence for those that way inclined to blame Israel.Peregrin Toker wrote:A common belief I stumble upon is that Israel has something to do with the war in Iraq, and that the Israeli gov't and their supporters probably are to blame for the whole affair.
I then ask.... how is this possible? I recall reading that Saddam Hussein once threatened with attacking Israel, meaning that Israel obviously would have an interest in ousting him... but is there any evidence that the USA invaded another country just because of pressure from a close ally?
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AdmiralTDM
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hmmm
If major proof was some how found of Isreali involvement aiding the US in the war in Iraq, that would be real bad shit for us, cause god do they all hate isreal over there.
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Rogue 9
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Captain Obvious strikes again. 
It's Rogue, not Rouge!
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EmperorChrostas the Cruel
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So, everybody says the same thing, but if the JEWZ say it at the same time, it's the JEWZ fault we invaded Iraq?
Only if you believe the JEWZ controle the USA.
Oh, yeah, right, the JEWZ DO controle the great Satan.
So it is Isreal's fault.
Those with that mindset already believe it true, and no lack of any proof otherwise means anything. PROOVE it wasn't the JEWS! No, your words are lies, great Satan! You would say anything the JEWZ tell you to say.
About that Pink Dragon in my garage....
Why is it so fuckling hard to conceive that Saddam fooled the world into thinking he had WMD? He worked at it hard and long enough, and spent enough fucking money.
AND, he was telling a lie which the world was predisposed to believing.
The following is to Saddam, care of US custody:
Ha ha ha !
Your goal was to scare us. Congradufuckinglations, you succeeded. You terrified those you set out to terrify, are you happy you did what you set out to do with such great effort? You spent years and billions on the project, do you like the results?
Only if you believe the JEWZ controle the USA.
Oh, yeah, right, the JEWZ DO controle the great Satan.
So it is Isreal's fault.
Those with that mindset already believe it true, and no lack of any proof otherwise means anything. PROOVE it wasn't the JEWS! No, your words are lies, great Satan! You would say anything the JEWZ tell you to say.
About that Pink Dragon in my garage....
Why is it so fuckling hard to conceive that Saddam fooled the world into thinking he had WMD? He worked at it hard and long enough, and spent enough fucking money.
AND, he was telling a lie which the world was predisposed to believing.
The following is to Saddam, care of US custody:
Ha ha ha !
Your goal was to scare us. Congradufuckinglations, you succeeded. You terrified those you set out to terrify, are you happy you did what you set out to do with such great effort? You spent years and billions on the project, do you like the results?
Hmmmmmm.
"It is happening now, It has happened before, It will surely happen again."
Oldest member of SD.net, not most mature.
Brotherhood of the Monkey
"It is happening now, It has happened before, It will surely happen again."
Oldest member of SD.net, not most mature.
Brotherhood of the Monkey
Besides we all know that the one really pulling Bush's strings is Blair, Israel just doesn't get a look in. The whole "yes sir anything you say Mr Bush sir" thing is just a cunning double bluff.
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Montcalm
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Strage i thought it was the oil industry that was pulling GWBs strings,and going on topic if the Israelis were behind this war we can be sure that every Arab country would form the biggest union against the US and Israel.......i thinkPlekhanov wrote:Besides we all know that the one really pulling Bush's strings is Blair, Israel just doesn't get a look in. The whole "yes sir anything you say Mr Bush sir" thing is just a cunning double bluff.
Jerry Orbach 1935 2004
Admiral Valdemar~You know you've fucked up when Wacky Races has more realistic looking vehicles than your own.
Sorry I should have made myself clearer if you follow the link in my last post you’ll find a story in which Blair attempts to argue that he’s influenced Bush on issues such as Israel/Palestine and I was venting my exasperation at his self delusion in a bitterly sarcastic post. Unfortunately it would seem I was a little too dry in my attempted wit, as I often am, I guess I’ll have to try and get used to using those smilie things.Montcalm wrote:Strage i thought it was the oil industry that was pulling GWBs strings,and going on topic if the Israelis were behind this war we can be sure that every Arab country would form the biggest union against the US and Israel.......i think
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Montcalm
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No prob i guess i should try and learn to read the sarcasm in others postPlekhanov wrote:Sorry I should have made myself clearer if you follow the link in my last post you’ll find a story in which Blair attempts to argue that he’s influenced Bush on issues such as Israel/Palestine and I was venting my exasperation at his self delusion in a bitterly sarcastic post. Unfortunately it would seem I was a little too dry in my attempted wit, as I often am, I guess I’ll have to try and get used to using those smilie things.Montcalm wrote:Sniped
Jerry Orbach 1935 2004
Admiral Valdemar~You know you've fucked up when Wacky Races has more realistic looking vehicles than your own.
Don't worry you're by no means the first on this board to misread my attempts at irony so the problem is mine, I should realise that my tone of voice really doesn’t carry too well on BBs.Montcalm wrote:No prob i guess i should try and learn to read the sarcasm in others post
I really should make it more obvious as at the moment people keep on mistaking me for a deeply ignorant and extravagantly offensive jerk and not the well informed urbane, wit that I undoubtedly am.