US Refuses Entry To Amish Man With No Photo ID

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-04-27 09:43pm

Would this be considered discrimination?

CBC wrote:KITCHENER, ONT. - A Canadian man has been separated from his wife and child because he refuses on religious grounds to let U.S. immigration officials take his picture.

Daniel Zehr, 29, of Kitchener, Ont., belongs to an Old Order Amish sect. He believes the Bible's prohibition against "graven images" includes photographs.

Zehr wants to live near Pittsburgh with his wife Ruth Anne, 22, and their child.

He entered the United States as a non-immigrant visitor following their June 2001 marriage.

Last December, the Zehrs travelled to Canada to visit his family in Ontario.

When they tried to go back across the border, Zehr was told he had "self-deported" and wouldn't be allowed to return to the United States without photo identification.

His attorneys say he is willing to be fingerprinted, but prosecutors in Pittsburgh say a photograph is necessary so Department of Homeland Security officials can check the background of people seeking alien status or citizenship.

Zehr wants to challenge that requirement.

He was temporarily allowed back into the United States on April 1. Last Thursday, the 3rd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals said he couldn't appeal his removal.

Mark Knapp, Zehr's attorney, said his client returned to Canada on Saturday, and plans to continue challenging the law.

Written by CBC News Online staff

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-04-27 09:48pm

If the fundie doesn't want to follow the law then tough shit. I wonder if he thought about the fact that scores of cameras watch the boarder crossing points at all times and he's been photographed repeatedly already?

Montcalm · Post by **Montcalm** » 2004-04-27 09:53pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:If the fundie doesn't want to follow the law then tough shit. I wonder if he thought about the fact that scores of cameras watch the boarder crossing points at all times and he's been photographed repeatedly already?

Since he's Amish and they don't want to live with todays technology,so no photo id for them,its not like he was covering his face like that dumbass muslim bitch in Florida hope i remembered the right state.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-04-27 09:55pm

Montcalm wrote: Since he's Amish and they don't want to live with todays technology,so no photo id for them,its not like he was covering his face like that dumbass muslim bitch in Florida hope i remembered the right state.

Whats the deal with the chick in Florida?

Montcalm · Post by **Montcalm** » 2004-04-27 09:57pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:
Montcalm wrote: Since he's Amish and they don't want to live with todays technology,so no photo id for them,its not like he was covering his face like that dumbass muslim bitch in Florida hope i remembered the right state.
Whats the deal with the chick in Florida?

Its somewhere in an old thread,she wanted to keep her face hidden on the drivers permit photo

Lonestar · Post by **Lonestar** » 2004-04-27 10:03pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:If the fundie doesn't want to follow the law then tough shit. I wonder if he thought about the fact that scores of cameras watch the boarder crossing points at all times and he's been photographed repeatedly already?

There is an oder of difference between someone who doesn't want to live with modern technology, and thusly doesn't own a photo ID, and someone who's disobeying one single law on a "purely religious ground."

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2004-04-27 10:22pm

Lonestar wrote: There is an oder of difference between someone who doesn't want to live with modern technology, and thusly doesn't own a photo ID, and someone who's disobeying one single law on a "purely religious ground."

As The Great Leader says, his 'religious grounds' are bullshit, since every time he crosses the border he gets filmed anyway, without his knowing. You can't avoid technology by closing your eyes :rolls:

Indeed, without photo id he can't do all sorts of stuff; should he have thee restrictions waived because he's an idiot?

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-04-27 11:22pm

Stark wrote:
Lonestar wrote: There is an oder of difference between someone who doesn't want to live with modern technology, and thusly doesn't own a photo ID, and someone who's disobeying one single law on a "purely religious ground."
As The Great Leader says, his 'religious grounds' are bullshit, since every time he crosses the border he gets filmed anyway, without his knowing. You can't avoid technology by closing your eyes :rolls:

Indeed, without photo id he can't do all sorts of stuff; should he have thee restrictions waived because he's an idiot?

Actually, most things you can do with a photo ID, the Amish don't do anyway. Most of them don't cross a national border all that often, though. I don't see what business it is of ours if they want to farm and plow the fields with horses instead of a tractor. Think about it. They don't drive, they don't have electricity or other utilities, they don't usually travel all that far because their mode of transportation has a rather limited range, they don't have much if any external income, and the list goes on. I mean, seriously. Its not like they go about trying to convert people like the JWs. As far as fundies go, the Amish have to be about the least offensive group there is.

As for this guy, what do they think he's going to do? Stare at them hard?

Those religious grounds also happen to preclude him from doing any harm to any person. There is no objective reason to suspect him of any kind of dangerous activity against American citizens.

darthdavid · Post by **darthdavid** » 2004-04-27 11:28pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
Stark wrote:
Lonestar wrote: There is an oder of difference between someone who doesn't want to live with modern technology, and thusly doesn't own a photo ID, and someone who's disobeying one single law on a "purely religious ground."
As The Great Leader says, his 'religious grounds' are bullshit, since every time he crosses the border he gets filmed anyway, without his knowing. You can't avoid technology by closing your eyes :rolls:

Indeed, without photo id he can't do all sorts of stuff; should he have thee restrictions waived because he's an idiot?
Actually, most things you can do with a photo ID, the Amish don't do anyway. Most of them don't cross a national border all that often, though. I don't see what business it is of ours if they want to farm and plow the fields with horses instead of a tractor. Think about it. They don't drive, they don't have electricity or other utilities, they don't usually travel all that far because their mode of transportation has a rather limited range, they don't have much if any external income, and the list goes on. I mean, seriously. Its not like they go about trying to convert people like the JWs. As far as fundies go, the Amish have to be about the least offensive group there is.

As for this guy, what do they think he's going to do? Stare at them hard? Those religious grounds also happen to preclude him from doing any harm to any person. There is no objective reason to suspect him of any kind of dangerous activity against American citizens.

Tough shit. Laws apply to everyone. That's how it goes. If he doesn't need a photo id than no one should need one. Oh, THAT DOESN'T MAKE FUCKING SENSE??? Then, like everyone else, he should be required to have a photo ID.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-04-27 11:29pm

Rogue 9 wrote:I don't see what business it is of ours if they want to farm and plow the fields with horses instead of a tractor.

No one said it was our concern. But border security is our concern, and people who refuse to submit to standard identification requirements can and should be denied entry.

Think about it. They don't drive, they don't have electricity or other utilities, they don't usually travel all that far because their mode of transportation has a rather limited range, they don't have much if any external income, and the list goes on. I mean, seriously. Its not like they go about trying to convert people like the JWs. As far as fundies go, the Amish have to be about the least offensive group there is.

No one was saying they should be attacked just for being Amish, and I'll thank you to stop using this idiotic strawman distortion. We're just saying that they're trying to create a legal loophole through which any idiot claiming religious exemptions can waltz across national borders without providing proper identification.

As for this guy, what do they think he's going to do? Stare at them hard? Those religious grounds also happen to preclude him from doing any harm to any person. There is no objective reason to suspect him of any kind of dangerous activity against American citizens.

Sometimes you can really be a fucking moron, do you know that? Do you know what happens if you set a precedent that people can be exempted from border security rules based on religious exemptions? Oh look, Akhmed Muhammed Al-Fayeed here doesn't want to provide photo ID to enter the country because his religion forbids it!

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-04-27 11:35pm

Freedom of religion is often confused with the freedom to upset public policy on a religious basis.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2004-04-28 12:55am

Rogue 9 wrote:As for this guy, what do they think he's going to do? Stare at them hard? Those religious grounds also happen to preclude him from doing any harm to any person. There is no objective reason to suspect him of any kind of dangerous activity against American citizens.

Tough fucking shit. There's no objective reason to suspect me of intending to blow up a building full of people either. Everyone has that presumption of innocence, but we check IDs at the border anyway. Need I remind you that there's no objective evidence to say that taking a photograph does any harm to him?

Religion should not be used to get you out of following the same rules that everyone else in the society does. So he can rot on the border if he doesn't like it.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-04-28 03:19am

It's too fucking bad, because the guy is probably harmless. But you can't make public policy on a case-by-case basis. He needs to get photo ID.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-04-28 04:48am

Joe wrote:Freedom of religion is often confused with the freedom to upset public policy on a religious basis.

Well put.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2004-04-28 08:06am

So how exactly did his wife and kid managed to get to Pittsburgh without him if he can't get into the country without a photo ID?

As for that "self deported" thing, I've known enough foreign people who've married Americans to know that this is something they have to be very careful of. Maried to a US citizen or not you better make sure you visa status is situated correctly before leaving the country or you'll end up like this guy.

Mutant Headcrab · Post by **Mutant Headcrab** » 2004-04-28 11:01am

Hmmmm....I've never heard of this sort of problem with the Amish before. I knew plenty of Amish people who had no problems with pictures. I know the Amish shun technology, but as I said, I've never heard it to this extreme.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-04-28 03:11pm

Mutant Headcrab wrote:Hmmmm....I've never heard of this sort of problem with the Amish before. I knew plenty of Amish people who had no problems with pictures. I know the Amish shun technology, but as I said, I've never heard it to this extreme.

There are varying degrees of lunacy.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-04-28 03:25pm

Stealing your soul at 24 frames per second.

I do love Amish folk. Now where's that Weird Al track...

Mayabird · Post by **Mayabird** » 2004-04-28 05:24pm

Mutant Headcrab wrote:Hmmmm....I've never heard of this sort of problem with the Amish before. I knew plenty of Amish people who had no problems with pictures. I know the Amish shun technology, but as I said, I've never heard it to this extreme.

What's odd to me about this is that the Amish have no problems with people doing genetic studies on them, but this guy refuses to have a picture of himself taken. I thought that, while they shun technology themselves, they won't stop anybody else from using it, and the government wanting a picture for their records would go under the latter. *shrugs* Eh.

Google search of "Amish genetic studies" for the interested and/or bored

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-04-29 12:17am

Mayabird wrote:
What's odd to me about this is that the Amish have no problems with people doing genetic studies on them, but this guy refuses to have a picture of himself taken. I thought that, while they shun technology themselves, they won't stop anybody else from using it, and the government wanting a picture for their records would go under the latter. *shrugs* Eh.

Google search of "Amish genetic studies" for the interested and/or bored

The Amish make decisions on technology something of a case by case basis depending on what affect they think It will have on there community. That's why they will allow say refrigeration for those who are dairy farmers but despise electronic games. It also means that their beliefs vary and some are more accepting of modern technology then others. I doubt they'd see much harm coming from giving a few blood samples or the like.

Talon Karrde · Post by **Talon Karrde** » 2004-05-02 11:47am

We've had to deny Amish men the right to buy alcohol because they have no Photo I.D. Usually, they understand, and they get someone else to buy it for them, but sometimes they flip out because they think we are persecuting them intentionally.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2004-05-02 12:23pm

Talon Karrde wrote:We've had to deny Amish men the right to buy alcohol because they have no Photo I.D. Usually, they understand, and they get someone else to buy it for them, but sometimes they flip out because they think we are persecuting them intentionally.

It was my understanding that the Amish weren't supposed to be drinking alcohol.