SW Fighters v. Trek Caps: Room For Heavy Warheads?

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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Illuminatus Primus wrote: Taken holistically, warheads appears as follows.

Concussion missiles: Specialized anti-fighter, anti-corvette/frieghter size missiles, and generic anti-ground missiles that specialize in anti-personnel atmospheric shock wave generation (hence the name concussion missiles) that are also occasionally used against fighters and light freighters, etc.
Yet in the novels (IE Isard's Revenge, BActa War) we see concussion missiles of several kinds used against capital ships as big as the Executor-class. This infers they can indeed reach yields comparable with if not exceeding proton torpedoes.

I might add that WOTC indicates there are varied kinds of concussion missiles, as does WEG.

Anyhow, canon contradicts your assumption. The concussion missiles the Falcon carried were more powerful than the torpedoes wedge had - this is explicit in both the ROTJ comic AND the canon novelization.
Proton Torpedoes: Used in anti-fighter (like Anakin's torpedoes in the Trade Fed ship) and anti-capital ship (but not really affective against larger threats like SDs except in the hundreds and hundreds) models. Some use against ground targets. "Advanced" torpedoes likely higher yield weapons. Highly expensive focused "proton-scattering" explosive devices. Likely associated with proton grenades and proton bombs. Highly miniturized model used by Spacetroopers.
Again, they ARE used against larger targets, even Executor and Imperator class vessels. This infers there are variants powerful enough to damage these ships, which require gigaton-teraton range explosions.

And again, like with concussion missiles, there are varying types, yields, etc. Like any missile weapon, they will vary accoridng to purpose and characteristics. I might add that there exist "proton missiles" (Used for example on World Devastators like Silencer-7 - ref EGV&V)
Heavy Rockets: Relatively slow high-yield weapons used for assaulting civilian space stations, frigates, and the like. Likely not used in atmosphere to avoid collateral damage from atmospheric affects.
These could also just be heavier versions of concussion missiles or proton torpedoes.
Space Bombs: High yield slow warheads with no energy sheath used to batter slow-moving or stationary capital ships (even SDs if stripped of shields) and space stations. Ditto as Heavy Rockets when it comes to atomsphere use.
As I recall, they were called "concussion bombs" before.
It is likely that space bomb and heavy rocket production is highly controlled by the Empire and New Republic, and Antilles while ambushing the Lusankya had access only to advanced high-yield proton torpedoes, and and beefed-up heavy concussion missiles. The "ion pulse" and "mag pulse" warheads are likely experimental and mostly novelty items. Stories are never retold containing them. So canonicity is severely limited.
As I recall from the Bacta War, Wedge ordered both captial and starfighter scale concussion missiles and proton torpedoes - he mounted the launchers on eighty-some freighters that were slaved to the targeting systems of Rogue Squadron's X-wings. Odds are that the majortiy of those "launchers" ordered were capital launchers, given the extraordinary shielding capabilities of Executors.
Note: Descriptions in the Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels state that Ulic-Qel Droma's courier could carry fewer of the "high-yield" proton torpedoes as opposed to "standard" proton torpedoes in its warhead bay. This suggests higher yield = greater weight/great weapon volume.
That wasn't the Nebulon ranger (which carried proton torpedoes and concussion sphere launchers.) That was Master Arca's Sungem (it could carry 12 high yield protorps or 24 standard protorps.)
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

consequences wrote:Tie defenders don't need to carry heavy weapons usually, that's what Scimitar assault bombers are for.

Am I the only one incredibly irked by the new Star Wars RPG's starship combat scaling? They have written it so that the sort of crap we see in the computer games is actually possible, I shit you not. Say what you will against West End Games, but their advanced scaling rules in the Rpg meant that you had to fire something like a couple of thousand fighter proton torpedos to bring an ISD shields down, and a minimum of hundreds more to destroy it.
We've seen in canon and official that SW ships are capable of greater. CAnon overrides EU, and EU cannot override itself. Therefore any arbitrary limit the games set is merely circumstantial to the game, they do not set absolute limits on capabilities.
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Post by Darth Yoshi »

Whether or not the TIE Defenders carry anti-ship missiles is irrelevant. Star Trek shields seem to drop at every hit. So just have the TIE Defenders strafe like mad in the same spot. Just like ST:FC against the Borg cube.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

According to EGVV, TIE Defenders can carry BOTH torpedoes and concussion missiles, which is very unusual for starfighters. This is likely a space limitation on most fighters that the TIE Defenders have gotten around with a new design.
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add on.

Post by omegaLancer »

Are not there hardware points for mounting additional weapons. Could not the missiles be loaded into an external modules or pods ( like a present day fighter)..
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Post by SPOOFE »

Ah, the old missile debate...

People always seem focused on class distinctions. "Proton torpedo" this and "Concussion missile" that. "1.5 megaton protorps!" screams one person. "191 megaton concussion missiles!" screams another.

I see no reason why each class of missile is limited to a single payload. I don't even see why each class of missile is limited to a single type of explosive. Can't there be more than one way to "scatter protons"?

In any case... there are definitely different yields within classes of weaponry. We've seen several different types of concussion missiles, for instance (look at the ones in the Millenium Falcon... they look like fat surfboards), and several different types of proton torpedoes (reference the first two ICS books).

The end result is that it's very conservative to say they can squeeze a 30 or 40 megaton warhead into a starfighter-scale torpedo or concussion missile, and when it comes to debating "SW fighters vs. ST capships", this yield of missile is more than sufficient.
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Post by Mr Bean »

Secondly, you can't bury your head in the sand and hope the bad man goes away. I have not nor ever heard of any explicit dismissal of any aspect of games as a source, except by selective fan consensus. Unless you can provide proof that the games are totally inadmissable rather than subordinate to canon and equivalent to other EU sources, try developing a REAL argument.
Ok how about this, Is can you name if Allance was given even EU status?

How about the Rouge Squadren Games where a Single X-Wing can destroy a entire ISD with a few torps?

I present this handy Digram Coutrisy of Mike Wong
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From what I've heard Allance was like Rouge Squadren and was not even given "Offical" status any more than the SW Homeworld Modders where

Also if you bothered to ever look closely at my posts you notice a distint diffrence.
First Defintion
canon

n 1: a rule or especially body of rules or principles generally established as valid and fundamental in a field or art or philosophy:
There is Canon and then there is Canon, There is also lower on the list "Quasi-Canon(If you've been reading the Darkstar debate here all the back and forth between Wong and Darkstar about that word)

Notice I use niether offical nor Canon, rather I say "Cannon" or Cannonical"
Thats not just mispelling I do it for a reason as its my way of refering to both Offical AND Canon at the same time(Yes thats right I acutal have a reason for spelling it that way to save space)

Lasty a question to you, You accuse me of "buring my head in the sand and hoping the bad man will go away" What would you have us two when two or more Offical OR Canon sources contradict each other

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Post by Connor MacLeod »

[quote="Mr Bean]
Ok how about this, Is can you name if Allance was given even EU status?

How about the Rouge Squadren Games where a Single X-Wing can destroy a entire ISD with a few torps?
[/quote]

In Shadows of the Empire a single ISD is not threatened by the lasers or proton torpedoes on a single X-wing. That infers circumstantial reasons to explain the inconsistency (either extremely strong torpedoes, lucky shot, indisposition of the ISD, etc.) You appear to be unable to grasp the concept that "EU cannot override itself." For example, while older EU cannot be overriden by newer EU (unless there is a statement to this effect I am aware of, in which case it can.) it also means that one cannot use an example that seemingly conflicts with another to dismiss that (IE common use of "other" examples in EU to dismiss ICS figures, or your pathetic attempt above using "Rogue Squadron" - even in the X-wing/TIE/Alliance games it takes more than a couple torpedoes to destroy an ISD, even with shields down.)

Also, nice try attempting to shift burden of proof onto me, when you're the one claiming that certain EU sources are of higher standing than others without providing the proof of this distinction.

We have multiple sources on the canonical/official hierarchy issue, and even some indicating what ISN'T in the universe. None of these have yet demonstrated that the games aren't to be included (yet its obvious that games ARE used as a source.) Since you are the one trying to dictate them as "lower EU", you must prove that it is not against the Canon/official policy we KNOW of to make such a distinction.

I present this handy Digram Coutrisy of Mike Wong
Image
Which shows pretty much what everyone knows. That there are some sources acknowledged outside canon and what is "historical" EU. We know that the infinities and (I think) SW tales are outside that (alternate timelines) because there are official signs that tell us this (there are logos on EU products that denote their status, remember?)

This does not prove your point that "the games are lower end EU and subordinate to higher sources." It doesnt even prove that the games are outside of EU. Unless you cna first PROVE that games are lower on the scale than say, the NJO novels, the chart is meaningless (and probably a misdirection - since my original challenge was and still is "prove that the games are lower official than other sources." - The diagram makes no such distinctions beyond the known canon/official hierarchy, and the fact that some EU sources are not apart of the official continuity.)
From what I've heard Allance was like Rouge Squadren and was not even given "Offical" status any more than the SW Homeworld Modders where
So your proof is hearsay from an unverified source that you have no knowledge of? You're really proving your point here, Bean.

BTW thhe "Homeworld Mod" isn't a licensed or authorized product, unlike say, X-wing Alliance.

There is Canon and then there is Canon, There is also lower on the list "Quasi-Canon(If you've been reading the Darkstar debate here all the back and forth between Wong and Darkstar about that word)
You'll also note that its been SPECIFICALLY stated what is apart of the "primary" and "secondary" canon, as well as what is official. THAT is the key point. The hierarchy exists BECAUSE we have been indicated what is considered the "policy" in various quotes. "Quasi Canon" is basically synonymous with "official" - it means the same thing (IE there is a body of work that works broadly WITH canon - both primary and secondary - insofar as it does not contradict said canon. There is also some measure of ambiguity with said source.) But this does not give any sort of explicit definition about FURTHER hierarchy distinctions - certainly nothing like what you are claiming.

I've repeatedly asked you to provide the proof about WHERE the distinctions among EU exist that you are claiming, and you have yet to provide any substantial proof for it. Now either provide the proof or concede. I'm getting tired of these evasions.
Notice I use niether offical nor Canon, rather I say "Cannon" or Cannonical"
Thats not just mispelling I do it for a reason as its my way of refering to both Offical AND Canon at the same time(Yes thats right I acutal have a reason for spelling it that way to save space)
Irrelevant. Aside from the fact that its only a semantical nitpick over the spelling of "canon" and how its defined, we're not talking about the canonical hierarchy nor its relationship with the EU. We're talking EXPLICITLY about the EU. Red Herring.
Lasty a question to you, You accuse me of "buring my head in the sand and hoping the bad man will go away" What would you have us two when two or more Offical OR Canon sources contradict each other
I've stated this before. Sources of equal status cannot by definition override one another (at least without not an authorized, independent source stating which is which - and perhaps not even then.), and EU sources cannot contradict themselves. If the two conflict, that means there is a reason of some sort for the apparent conflict (you do realize what "continuity" is, right? Contradictions are not conducive to continuity.) For two examples:

1.) Its a known fact in Canon and eU that fighter accelerations/speeds can reach far in excess of what ships are capable of in the games. This means that whatever speed "limits" exist because of teh game are for other reasons other than technical/design limitations (circumstantial for example - a result of the way the combat is conducted.)

2.) your "Rogue Squadron" attempt to introduce contradictions in an attempt to dismiss games as sources. I've noted the SOTE reference where ISD's have little to fear from a single X-wing squadron, even from torpedoes. Since obth are EU sources, this means there is another explanation for why what was accomplished in Rogue Squadron is possible (this assumes your claim is accurate, which given your historical accuracy with EU sources, I'm doubting.)

It amuses me how often people think that introducing a "contradiction" somehow throws a monkey wrench into the gears of the analytical process, yet they never stop to think about the continuity issue (or "suspension of disbelief" for that matter - you think that if SW were real, they'd be shouting "contradictions"?)
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Mr. Bean, you are mistaken about how LFL treats the games. Rostoni, in Gamer, specified that ALL EU is canon except for Star Wars Tales and Infinities. Now you can take that as you may with the other statements about canon, but that was a official declaration, not an answering of a fan question (Sansweet) or outdated statements or interpreted vague Lucas quotes. That's what they said policy was. Now, take it with a grain of salt if you wish, but the truth is, LFL doesn't assign official to certain products and not others. ALL games are offical, and canon according to Rostoni in Gamer. The Razor Roundezvous and Battle of Endor missions you speak of in Rogue Squadron 2: Rogue Leader is unimportant because game mechanics like weak spots and torp strength/range are not consider canon, merely storyline. And the Battle of Endor mission is overridden by the movies, and the Razor Roundezvous by X-Wing Alliance.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

As for continuity errors that exist between "Movie Canon" (as I will call it) and "EU Canon" (as I will call it), movies always come out on top. Errors within the "Greater Canon" (everything not Infinities) are generally resolved with a "continuity fix" a set of speculation and logical manipulation to allow for seemingly contradictory events to exist together...or at least close to together. The indulge this on the Lit. Forum on TheForce.net frequently about almost everything. Trust me, the concensus there is that the Rostoni quote is to be LFL offical policy and they've figured everything out still.
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Post by Ender »

Something to throw onto the fire here:

According to EGW&T (being home, I finally have access to all this stuff), the larger concussion missiles used by the falcon have the same yield as a proton torpedo, meaning that the smaller protons would have that 191 MT yeild we all know and love.
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Post by Vympel »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Mr. Bean, you are mistaken about how LFL treats the games. Rostoni, in Gamer, specified that ALL EU is canon except for Star Wars Tales and Infinities. Now you can take that as you may with the other statements about canon, but that was a official declaration, not an answering of a fan question (Sansweet) or outdated statements or interpreted vague Lucas quotes. That's what they said policy was. Now, take it with a grain of salt if you wish, but the truth is, LFL doesn't assign official to certain products and not others. ALL games are offical, and canon according to Rostoni in Gamer. The Razor Roundezvous and Battle of Endor missions you speak of in Rogue Squadron 2: Rogue Leader is unimportant because game mechanics like weak spots and torp strength/range are not consider canon, merely storyline. And the Battle of Endor mission is overridden by the movies, and the Razor Roundezvous by X-Wing Alliance.
So why does X-Wing Alliance override Rogue Leader, exactly?

Also, how do we decide how the shuttle Tyderian was stolen?

1: Did Ace Azzameen steal it, as told by X-Wing Alliance?
2: Did Wedge Antilles steal it, as told by Rogue Leader?

Pretty hard to rationalize that one.

Oh well. The only arbiter of an official source will be whether it contradicts canon.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Ace Azzameen stole it. There was some comment by LFL. Likewise with Razor Rondezvous. I'll look for it, but I remember LFL declared the Rogue Leader versions apocryphal.
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Post by Vympel »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Ace Azzameen stole it. There was some comment by LFL. Likewise with Razor Rondezvous. I'll look for it, but I remember LFL declared the Rogue Leader versions apocryphal.
Good to know that LFL is on the ball!
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Aye. The Rogue Leader ones were just bizarre and well...bad.

Rebel genius was properly used there. Even with the emasculated 8 km Executor, the entire mission was dedicated to the proper fleeing of Imperial might. :twisted:
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Oops, second sentence in last post refers to the X-Wing Alliance versions.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Is there anything in either source explicitly saying that there was only one person piloting the ship or that they were stealing it alone? If not, why can't both have done it together? (IIRC most shuttles require a pilot and copilot - as do most vessels of that size type - like the Falcon)
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

You don't understand.

X-Wing Alliance (CANON version): Razor Rondezvous

Ace Azzameen and his squad mates rush to the aid of the Correllian Corvette Razor, carrying the computer core retrieved from the Imperial Freighter Suprosa. This computer contained the information on the Death Star II (stuff Mon Mothma was talking about with "many Bothans died to bring us this information."). Ace and his squad fail to prevent the Razor from being disabled and captured by the Imperator II-class Star Destroyer Avenger. However, a tech managed to flee the Corvette in a life pod, and was protected by Alliance fighters from the Avenger and it's fighter complement until it could reach a Rebel-sympathizer's Katana-class Dreadnaught. The fighters and the Deadnaught hypered out of the system to bring the life pod to Admiral Ackbar aboard his personal cruiser, the MC-80 Independence. Once arrived, the Alliance fighters ran interference for the life pod as it fled across a few kilometers to the Independence. Lord Darth Vader's flagship, the Executor, gave chase, harrassing the Dreadnaught and Independence until the life pod was safely aboard and all friendly fled to an Alliance roundezvous point.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Rogue Leader (APOCRYPHAL version):

The Alliance Corvette Razor is being captured by the Star Destroyer Avenger. Your B-Wing Squadrons along with the Neblon-B Escort Frigate Redemption are to destroy the Avenger (by taking out the shield generators and then the bridge, of course).

Second mission in this group, you fly a Y-Wing and must destroy Imperial assault forces attempting to block Alliance Spec Ops Troopers from assaulting the crashed hulk of the Avenger and bomb a hole in the SD to gain them access.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

X-Wing Alliance (canon): Ace Azzameen sneaks aboard an Imperial Base using the family company YT-1300 frieghter Sabra. You carefully avoid alerting Imperial patrols (who can scan your frighter to reveal the command unit aboard and your hidden military-grade weaponry). You land aboard the space station and stall the authorities with excuses about the "cargo bay doors being stuck" while the commandoes make a run for the Tyderium.

You bust out of the hangar with the Tyderium and call Alliance fighters to make a diversionary run while Rogue Squadron pops in and helps escort you and the Tyderium out of there (and there's patrol craft, an SD, and fighters everywhere).

Rogue Leader (apocrypha): Wedge Antilles and Rogue Squadron hit an Imperial ground base, Antilles literally lands alone and runs over to grab the Tyderium himself :roll:
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Post by Mad »

Mr Bean wrote:Ok how about this, Is can you name if Allance was given even EU status?
I really shouldn't have to be the one to pull out evidence, but this is just too easy not to:

From: http://www.starwars.com/community/askjc ... 10817.html
The particular attributes of individual media also come into play. A comic book interpretation of an event will likely have less dialogue or different pacing than a novel version. A video game has to take an interactive approach that favors gameplay. So too must card and roleplaying games ascribe certain characteristics to characters and events in order to make them playable.

The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them. Like the great Jedi Knight Obi-Wan Kenobi said, 'many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view.'
Everything that is licensed is a part of continuity (unless it has the Infinities logo, as explained later in the article). Games are specifically included. They are not 100% accurate (especially in regard to game mechanics and gameplay, as stated, though I'm sure other things can be brought up), but are still admissable evidence.

The challenge has been met even though it didn't have to be. Now, where is it said that Alliance is not admissable at all?
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Post by SirNitram »

A final note: TIE's do not carry missiles internally. Every reference I've ever seen of non-Bomber/Scimitar craft carrying missiles has them carried externally, on racks along the 'wings'. The TIE/D's armanant seems to be mounted on the outside of each wing.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

I understand perfectly. But you've left some loose ends, and thus far it looks like you're making arbitrary distinctions between sources. So we must resolve some of your prior claims first.

Before I bother attemping to deal with the apparent "inconsistencies" - I want to know for certain whether or not Rogue Leader is really apocryphal - Do you have the source to cite (IE where is it from) and the quote to back up that statement (indicating it is apocryphal status?)

Please provide this evidence, or tell me where I can find it.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

SirNitram wrote:A final note: TIE's do not carry missiles internally. Every reference I've ever seen of non-Bomber/Scimitar craft carrying missiles has them carried externally, on racks along the 'wings'. The TIE/D's armanant seems to be mounted on the outside of each wing.
Which sources? I dont recall ever seeing any SW ships mounting external loads (Except maybe for the K-wing)
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SirNitram
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Post by SirNitram »

Connor MacLeod wrote:
SirNitram wrote:A final note: TIE's do not carry missiles internally. Every reference I've ever seen of non-Bomber/Scimitar craft carrying missiles has them carried externally, on racks along the 'wings'. The TIE/D's armanant seems to be mounted on the outside of each wing.
Which sources? I dont recall ever seeing any SW ships mounting external loads (Except maybe for the K-wing)
IIRC, illustrations in WEG sourcebooks.
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