Fencing Advice

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2004-04-22 04:20pm

Darth_Zod wrote:biggest problem with fencing in and of itself is that there's too many rules and restrictions one has to observe to be of any decent skill in the sport. Much like some martial arts such as wushu which emphasizes more on style and looking pretty over actual practicality.

There is the fact, while those martial arts do empahsise style, they've not got rules against substance, fencing does.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2004-04-22 06:11pm

Keevan_Colton wrote:
Darth_Zod wrote:biggest problem with fencing in and of itself is that there's too many rules and restrictions one has to observe to be of any decent skill in the sport. Much like some martial arts such as wushu which emphasizes more on style and looking pretty over actual practicality.
There is the fact, while those martial arts do empahsise style, they've not got rules against substance, fencing does.

That depends, in a lot of martial arts, standing and advancement is mostly dependent upon mastery of the forms, rather than raw butt-kicking ability.

mauldooku · Post by **mauldooku** » 2004-04-23 06:30pm

Darth_Zod wrote:biggest problem with fencing in and of itself is that there's too many rules and restrictions one has to observe to be of any decent skill in the sport. Much like some martial arts such as wushu which emphasizes more on style and looking pretty over actual practicality.

How is that a problem? It's a sport. It doesn't pretend to be anything else.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-04-23 06:37pm

Badme wrote:
Darth_Zod wrote:biggest problem with fencing in and of itself is that there's too many rules and restrictions one has to observe to be of any decent skill in the sport. Much like some martial arts such as wushu which emphasizes more on style and looking pretty over actual practicality.
How is that a problem? It's a sport. It doesn't pretend to be anything else.

this was in reference to how practical fencing was compared to other types of fighting. the sport bit should have been highlighted or some such to indicate sarcasm, but eh, it's hard to relay that on the boards.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2004-04-24 02:25am

now where did I put my compound bow...

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2004-04-24 04:41am

Keevan_Colton wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote: Or my personal favorite..pull a paintball gun and shoot the bugger!!!
Long live the western way of war!
Or we can go back further...

Beat, grab wrist, lead off, stab in chest, kidneys or throat depending on prefrence....

Bleh..(god, evolution, aliens toxic waste) made man, guns made em equel.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2004-04-24 04:50am

Badme wrote:
Darth_Zod wrote:biggest problem with fencing in and of itself is that there's too many rules and restrictions one has to observe to be of any decent skill in the sport. Much like some martial arts such as wushu which emphasizes more on style and looking pretty over actual practicality.
How is that a problem? It's a sport. It doesn't pretend to be anything else.

Trouble is that for many years fencing practitioners put their sport as a form of combat that was the pinicle of blade combat..which it most certainly is not. This was an error based on erronous research in the 19th century IIRC. I hope that post fencers reconise it as a sport, not a combat form.

mauldooku · Post by **mauldooku** » 2004-04-24 08:38am

Stuart Mackey wrote:
Badme wrote:
Darth_Zod wrote:biggest problem with fencing in and of itself is that there's too many rules and restrictions one has to observe to be of any decent skill in the sport. Much like some martial arts such as wushu which emphasizes more on style and looking pretty over actual practicality.
How is that a problem? It's a sport. It doesn't pretend to be anything else.
Trouble is that for many years fencing practitioners put their sport as a form of combat that was the pinicle of blade combat..which it most certainly is not. This was an error based on erronous research in the 19th century IIRC. I hope that post fencers reconise it as a sport, not a combat form.

Yeah, most good teachers/fencers recognize it only as a sport, nothing more.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-04-24 01:21pm

Heh. If they tried to use that sissy wimp style in actual combat they'd lose 9 times out of 10 to someone with a real blade, and the tenth one would be a n00b.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2004-04-25 12:44pm

Rogue 9 wrote:Heh. If they tried to use that sissy wimp style in actual combat they'd lose 9 times out of 10 to someone with a real blade, and the tenth one would be a n00b.

That 'sissy wimp style' has one major advantage over most other blades, that in the hands of a trained practitioner its fast as fuck.

I could kill someone quite easily with a fencing blade. Simply attack, let them parry and break the blade, and carry forward and jam the remaining metal into a vital spot before they bring their blade back around. An expert will lunge forward ten feet or so and impale you while you are still blinking.

Bugsby · Post by **Bugsby** » 2004-04-25 08:07pm

Hands down, the answer is distance. A fleche is only potent during the initial crossover. Start by pushing him (or at least not letting yourself get pushed) to keep some room open for you down-strip. Watch for the fleche, if you know that is what's coming. When it comes, to some quick retreats. If its epee, you can hit him after your first retreat when he is losing distance. If its foil, you can beat attack, or just make the counter in time. No big.

mauldooku · Post by **mauldooku** » 2004-04-25 08:17pm

Rogue 9 wrote:Heh. If they tried to use that sissy wimp style in actual combat they'd lose 9 times out of 10 to someone with a real blade, and the tenth one would be a n00b.

It depends. If you're a decent modern, sport fencer, and you went into combat against an untrained man armed with rapiers, you'll probably win, as the footwork is somewhat similar to actual fencing. Handwork is a bit less so, but still.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2004-04-27 02:43am

Badme wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote:Heh. If they tried to use that sissy wimp style in actual combat they'd lose 9 times out of 10 to someone with a real blade, and the tenth one would be a n00b.
It depends. If you're a decent modern, sport fencer, and you went into combat against an untrained man armed with rapiers, you'll probably win, as the footwork is somewhat similar to actual fencing. Handwork is a bit less so, but still.

If you are in actual combat I think you will find that the simple use of a sword blade is not going to be your only concern.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2004-04-27 02:48am

consequences wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote:Heh. If they tried to use that sissy wimp style in actual combat they'd lose 9 times out of 10 to someone with a real blade, and the tenth one would be a n00b.
That 'sissy wimp style' has one major advantage over most other blades, that in the hands of a trained practitioner its fast as fuck.

I could kill someone quite easily with a fencing blade. Simply attack, let them parry and break the blade, and carry forward and jam the remaining metal into a vital spot before they bring their blade back around. An expert will lunge forward ten feet or so and impale you while you are still blinking.

You would put your defence in one implausable move? perhaps your oponent sidesteps and moves to dislocate your knee? or moves around your reach to a lock up and dispaches you from there?
fencer is trained to fence within a certain set of rules, it is a sport. A person trained for combat is not so bound and will use whatever means to kill you, not score a point.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-04-27 03:25am

perhaps your oponent sidesteps and moves to dislocate your knee?

Ah, but fencers are limited to two dimensional movement.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2004-04-27 03:41am

Rogue 9 wrote:
perhaps your oponent sidesteps and moves to dislocate your knee?
Ah, but fencers are limited to two dimensional movement.

dont get me started....

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-04-27 04:52am

Stuart Mackey wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote:
perhaps your oponent sidesteps and moves to dislocate your knee?
Ah, but fencers are limited to two dimensional movement.
dont get me started....

Fortunately, I am not a fencer. Bring on the overextension of defenses that comes with lunging ten feet against an opponent who is not constrained to two dimensional movement!

Sidestep, then trip if I'm feeling nice or take off his right hand at the wrist if I'm not.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2004-04-27 05:06am

There is nothing wrong with fencing. It's a skill building legitimate sport. Stop trying to compare it with using a broadsword. That's like saying that people who use pistols to shoot should forget about it and just use a missle launcher.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2004-04-27 07:22am

Superman wrote:There is nothing wrong with fencing. It's a skill building legitimate sport. Stop trying to compare it with using a broadsword. That's like saying that people who use pistols to shoot should forget about it and just use a missle launcher.

No, there is nothing wrong with fencing, it is a legitimate sport..what we are getting at is the prats who try to make out that it is a form of combat, and one that is superiour to rapier, longsword etc, which it manifestly is not.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2004-04-27 03:59pm

Stuart Mackey wrote:
consequences wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote:Heh. If they tried to use that sissy wimp style in actual combat they'd lose 9 times out of 10 to someone with a real blade, and the tenth one would be a n00b.
That 'sissy wimp style' has one major advantage over most other blades, that in the hands of a trained practitioner its fast as fuck.

I could kill someone quite easily with a fencing blade. Simply attack, let them parry and break the blade, and carry forward and jam the remaining metal into a vital spot before they bring their blade back around. An expert will lunge forward ten feet or so and impale you while you are still blinking.
You would put your defence in one implausable move? perhaps your oponent sidesteps and moves to dislocate your knee? or moves around your reach to a lock up and dispaches you from there?
fencer is trained to fence within a certain set of rules, it is a sport. A person trained for combat is not so bound and will use whatever means to kill you, not score a point.

I am not an expert. I am much more likely to attack, disengage around the parry, and stab someone through the throat before they can bring their blade around. The attacking with the broken blade is a desperation move for a reason. It has a decent chance of working, as most casual weapon users get entirely too caught up in their weapon, and don't keep track of their other options. If however, they do keep it together, I am very likely dead.
When I say expert, I am talking about possibly the scariest guy I know. Noteworthy feats include fencing and beating two people at once, and winning two out of three fencing competitions while sleep-deprived and after giving blood(he missed out on Sabre by all of two points). He could lunge farther and faster than I thought was physically possible prior to meeting him.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2004-04-27 04:01pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
perhaps your oponent sidesteps and moves to dislocate your knee?
Ah, but fencers are limited to two dimensional movement.

Ah, how little you know. It is true that they are limited to a corridor, but not all sideways movement is banned. One guy I knew had a nasty habit of spinning, and putting a blade into you when you thought you were attacking his unprotected back.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-04-27 04:02pm

Stuart Mackey wrote:
Superman wrote:There is nothing wrong with fencing. It's a skill building legitimate sport. Stop trying to compare it with using a broadsword. That's like saying that people who use pistols to shoot should forget about it and just use a missle launcher.
No, there is nothing wrong with fencing, it is a legitimate sport..what we are getting at is the prats who try to make out that it is a form of combat, and one that is superiour to rapier, longsword etc, which it manifestly is not.

a rapier, foil or epee are typically used for fencing, iirc. Though while those weapons in and of themselves can be quite effective fencing effectively neuters them in terms of actual practicality. as there's all kinds of restrictions you have to observe.

mauldooku · Post by **mauldooku** » 2004-04-28 08:41pm

Stuart Mackey wrote:
Badme wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote:Heh. If they tried to use that sissy wimp style in actual combat they'd lose 9 times out of 10 to someone with a real blade, and the tenth one would be a n00b.
It depends. If you're a decent modern, sport fencer, and you went into combat against an untrained man armed with rapiers, you'll probably win, as the footwork is somewhat similar to actual fencing. Handwork is a bit less so, but still.
If you are in actual combat I think you will find that the simple use of a sword blade is not going to be your only concern.

What in all the bloody hells are you talking about?

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2004-04-28 08:44pm

Badme wrote: What in all the bloody hells are you talking about?

Fencing has no provisions for the "grab your opponents arm" "sidestep, step in and headbutt" or "swift kick to the groin" manouvers.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2004-04-29 01:36am

Darth_Zod wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote:
Superman wrote:There is nothing wrong with fencing. It's a skill building legitimate sport. Stop trying to compare it with using a broadsword. That's like saying that people who use pistols to shoot should forget about it and just use a missle launcher.
No, there is nothing wrong with fencing, it is a legitimate sport..what we are getting at is the prats who try to make out that it is a form of combat, and one that is superiour to rapier, longsword etc, which it manifestly is not.
a rapier, foil or epee are typically used for fencing, iirc. Though while those weapons in and of themselves can be quite effective fencing effectively neuters them in terms of actual practicality. as there's all kinds of restrictions you have to observe.

Its Sabre

but these 'weapons' are to proper swords what a BB gun is a to an assult rifle.