Second Iraqi Troop Mutiny

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Second Iraqi Troop Mutiny

Post by Patrick Degan »

But remember, everything's going according to plan. The White House says so...

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Siege of Fallujah provokes second mutiny
By Patrick Cockburn in Baghdad


29 April 2004

A second unit of the Iraqi armed forces has mutinied at Fallujah after being involved in heavy fighting with insurgents Ali Allawi, the Iraqi Defence Minister, said yesterday.

Part of the 36th battalion of the paramilitary Iraqi Civil Defence Corps revolted last week after the unit had been fighting in the besieged city for 11 days, the minister told The Independent yesterday. Mr Allawi blamed the mutiny on "a failure of command. The commanding officer was absent, his deputy ... was seriously wounded and the number three faltered".

At the start of the siege of Fallujah three weeks ago, one of the five battalions of the newly formed Iraqi army refused to go to the city because many of its soldiers were not prepared to fight fellow Iraqis.

But news of the mutiny of a second Iraqi unit had not been released. Mr Allawi said US Marines "had to separate those who did want to fight from those who would not".

The battalion may have split along ethnic lines. Its soldiers were recruited from the militiamen of the Iraqi political parties which belong to the US-appointed Iraqi Governing Council, and about half were Kurdish soldiers, known as peshmerga. The Kurds were prepared to fight but Iraqi Arab soldiers said they had had enough. Those who refused to fight were withdrawn from the battlefield for retraining.

Some members of the governing council have said that the performance of the 36th battalion showed a new Iraqi army should be recruited from politically committed militiamen and party members.

At the start of the uprisings, after the US moved against the Shia cleric Muqtada Sadr, 40 per cent of the US-trained Iraqi security forces went home and 10 per cent changed sides, the US military said.

Mr Allawi, long exiled in London, won a reputation for efficiency while Iraqi minister of trade, a job he still holds. He is trying to raise an 80,000-strong Iraqi army, of whom 35,000 will be regulars and 40,000 to 45,000 will be in the paramilitary defence corps.

He says the poor performance of the Iraqi security forces stems from poor leadership and lack of training. Asked who will command the new Iraqi army, Mr Allawi said firmly: "I will give the orders." He added with a laugh: "I do not mean that in any Napoleonic sense."

He said the battalion which refused orders to move from Taji north of Baghdad to Fallujah was not told what it would be doing, and its men thought, wrongly, they would be thrown into the thick of the fighting.

Priority is being given to creating a 10,000-strong emergency task force in the army which will deal with sudden crises such as that which has engulfed Iraq this month. The Interior Ministry is also developing Swat teams for emergencies. One problem for the Iraqi army is that the men are being paid only $60 a month, less than garbage collectors in Baghdad, for a dangerous job. "Somebody wanted an army on the cheap," Mr Allawi said.

He believed re-employing officers who used to be Baathists was "something of a red herring. There are only 30 slots for generals in the new army and there are 11,000 generals in Iraq [Saddam Hussein promoted men to the rank for a better pension]".

Mr Allawi said the real problem was that people who were in the Baath party, and Republican and Special Republican Guard around Baghdad "have begun to re-coalesce. In a place like Baquba maybe there is a hard core of 100 or 200 people though they may not have been senior before." He believes Islamic militants play a stiffening rather than a central role.

Fighting continued in the outskirts of Fallujah yesterday. US Marines used helicopter gunships and aircraft to attack lorries carrying ammunition.
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Post by Grand Admiral Thrawn »

But...they can hold their guns right! This is impossible!!!
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Post by MKSheppard »

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:But...they can hold their guns right! This is impossible!!!
I see a lot of people missed my point with that. You can't just field
a professoinal grade army in less than a year. You have to start
with basics, and build your way up. Just the simple fact that they're disciplined enough to hold their weapons in the safe position makes
them a cut above the normal forces in other Arab countries.

And if you read into this rather than shout "OMGLOL the sky is falling!",
you'll see that the unit in question had been involved in street fighting
for eleven days before breaking. That's commendable, in the same way
Maryland militamen held up crack british troops; veterans of the Napoleonic
wars, for over two hours at Bladensburg, Maryland, before cracking.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

How is the Maryland militia to the British Army regulars what the Iraqi Governing Council's paramilitaries are to Sunni insurgents?
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Post by HemlockGrey »

Those who refused to fight were withdrawn from the battlefield for retraining.
That's gonna suck.

That said, it could have been a lot worse. When I hear "revolt" or "mutiny" I think of "pointing the guns the other way".
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Post by MKSheppard »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:How is the Maryland militia to the British Army regulars what the Iraqi Governing Council's military are to Sunni insurgents?
Fighting in a city against a guerilla force for eleven days is a very creditable
achievement, with troops that are still green.
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Post by The Kernel »

MKSheppard wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:How is the Maryland militia to the British Army regulars what the Iraqi Governing Council's military are to Sunni insurgents?
Fighting in a city against a guerilla force for eleven days is a very creditable
achievement, with troops that are still green.
Yes but we aren't talking about them getting scared and running away now are we? We're talking about troops that have revolted against their commanders because they either don't want to kill their fellow citizens or they sympathize with the opposing sides reason for fighting. This didn't happen to the Maryland militia, nor any other militia during the American revolution that I am aware of.
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Post by MKSheppard »

The Kernel wrote:This didn't happen to the Maryland militia, nor any other militia during the American revolution that I am aware of.
:lol:

Stupid Brit, doesn't know their history. The Battle of Bladensburg, was in the War of 1812, the loss of the Battle allowd the Brits to march onto and
sack Washington.
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Post by MKSheppard »

Slightly off topic note of interest:

During the Battle of Bladensburg, the British troops used rocket artillery in combat.
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Post by The Kernel »

MKSheppard wrote:
The Kernel wrote:This didn't happen to the Maryland militia, nor any other militia during the American revolution that I am aware of.
:lol:

Stupid Brit, doesn't know their history. The Battle of Bladensburg, was in the War of 1812, the loss of the Battle allowd the Brits to march onto and
sack Washington.
:wtf:

Did you just call me a Brit?
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Post by MKSheppard »

The Kernel wrote: :wtf:

Did you just call me a Brit?
*looks at location, goes red*

Oops. :shock: Sorry, you exude that "britishness" :-P
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Post by The Kernel »

MKSheppard wrote:
The Kernel wrote: :wtf:

Did you just call me a Brit?
*looks at location, goes red*

Oops. :shock: Sorry, you exude that "britishness" :-P
It's okay, but I have one question for you. Do you think it's wise to call someone stupid for not knowing a factoid about military history when you can't deduce that Mountain View, CA is actually in the United States?
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The Kernel wrote:Do you think it's wise to call someone stupid for not knowing a factoid about military history when you can't deduce that Mountain View, CA is actually in the United States?
Erm.......'

*goes and sulks away* :?
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Post by HemlockGrey »

And what does that have to do with the fact that, unlike the Iraqi force, the Marylanders did not refuse to fight?
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Post by MKSheppard »

HemlockGrey wrote:And what does that have to do with the fact that, unlike the Iraqi force, the Marylanders did not refuse to fight?
:wtf:
Part of the 36th battalion of the paramilitary Iraqi Civil Defence Corps revolted last week after the unit had been fighting in the besieged city for 11 days
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Post by MKSheppard »

You know, why is it when it comes to Iraq, you guys have no real
long term view? You want it all NOW NOW NOW NOW...

We made world class units out of ARVN infantry battalions and mountain
tribesmen in Vietnam; it just took lots of time, patience, and effort, which
is essentially a microsm of the US effort in Iraq.
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Post by Pablo Sanchez »

MKSheppard wrote:I see a lot of people missed my point with that. You can't just field a professoinal grade army in less than a year.
Making a "professional grade" army is one thing. Making an army that doesn't mutiny is quite another. Anyway, this whole "long-view" that you're looking forward to is silly. We're facing rising resistance, widespread resentment, there's no plan for fixing any of it besides "kill teh badguys," and your response is to say that every little thing will be alright... in two or three years.
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Post by MKSheppard »

Pablo Sanchez wrote:and your response is to say that every little thing will be alright... in two or three years.
Ever work on a construction job? A simple apartment complex remodelling
takes at least a year. A major public works project takes YEARS to do,
and you're expecting the country to be magically rebuilt in a single year
to some bright shining utopia, even after it's suffered over twelve years
of neglect through sanctions?
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Post by Pablo Sanchez »

MKSheppard wrote:Ever work on a construction job? A simple apartment complex remodelling takes at least a year. A major public works project takes YEARS to do, and you're expecting the country to be magically rebuilt in a single year to some bright shining utopia, even after it's suffered over twelve years of neglect through sanctions?
That's a nice analogy, but I've got a better one. Your crew starts renovating a building. And then it's struck by lightning and catches fire--and nobody knows how to put it out! The foreman responds, saying "We'll be done renovating by next winter, it'll be alright."

How much sense does that make?
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Post by MKSheppard »

Pablo Sanchez wrote: The foreman responds, saying "We'll be done renovating by next winter, it'll be alright."

How much sense does that make?
:roll:

The foreman says "Well Shit, Guess the completion date got pushed back another year."
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Post by The Kernel »

MKSheppard wrote:You know, why is it when it comes to Iraq, you guys have no real
long term view? You want it all NOW NOW NOW NOW...
If I thought there was a snowballs chance in hell of Iraq turning out better then before we took out Saddam, then I would say that a certain amount of casualties and disorder are acceptable if it means achieving a generally better nation of Iraq.

Unfortunately, I can't assume that based on current information. Please do tell, what exactly is it about the situation in Iraq that you think will improve? Why do you have any reason to believe that the situation will stabilize long-term? I'm not against waiting, but the United States has an extremely poor track record in this sort of nation building and Iraq has probably been the worst start we've ever seen.

So why should we be expected to wait four years for the situation to degrade further when there is no indication that it WILL get any better? Are you aware of some brilliant long-term strategy cooked up by the Bush administration that we are all unaware of?
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The Kernel wrote: So why should we be expected to wait four years for the situation to degrade further when there is no indication that it WILL get any better? Are you aware of some brilliant long-term strategy cooked up by the Bush administration that we are all unaware of?
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Post by Durandal »

Mayabird wrote:
The Kernel wrote:So why should we be expected to wait four years for the situation to degrade further when there is no indication that it WILL get any better? Are you aware of some brilliant long-term strategy cooked up by the Bush administration that we are all unaware of?
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Post by Pablo Sanchez »

MKSheppard wrote: :roll:

The foreman says "Well Shit, Guess the completion date got pushed back another year."
Not if the whole fucking building BURNS TO THE GROUND, genius. And that is what's happening in Iraq. The basic assumption you're making here is that things won't get worse--a totally baseless assumption which is not at all grounded in reality. We've got a country that's swarming with insurgents and a population which grows more dissatisfied with us by the day, and who incidentally hate and distrust the government we've set up to supposedly rule them. If anything, it's going to get worse.
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Post by Darth Wong »

This "building construction analogy" is cute, but it ignores one crucial element: the construction company has to build this structure because it demolished the one that was already there.

The US came in, completely dismantled the entire civil government apparatus of the nation as well as its army and police forces, and then decided they'd try to rebuild from the ground up. This is exactly like demolishing a building rather than renovating it, even though you expect people to live in the fucking thing throughout this whole process..
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