STGOD 4 OOC Thread

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-04-30 10:10pm

Free, public encryption now, maybe. But we're operating with a much higher computer power level.

I know about one time pads. They're the biggest pain in the ass of all, though.

And if I put human intelligence on the ground it will be automatically discovered the instant I post about it. The levels of metagaming in this thing are outrageous; I don't trust for an instant that any HUMINT on the ground wouldn't just happen to be pulled over for speeding and busted in the first five minutes.

I mean, if people are willing to metagame outside the realm of possibility (case in point; the Floaters, or at least Thirdfain, obviously knew that the Monacorans would help them in their theft and piracy even though they had no means of gaining this knowledge) then they will make the far easier leap of metagaming inside the realm of possibility, however remote the possibility may be. I have DMed waaaaaay too many RPGs to not see the patterns here.

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2004-04-30 10:15pm

Rogue 9 wrote:(case in point; the Floaters, or at least Thirdfain, obviously knew that the Monacorans would help them in their theft and piracy even though they had no means of gaining this knowledge)

To be fair, I put the Peace of Earth in my OOB, and merely acted apon that. I would also point out that the Arcanists didn't stick around long enough for us to even continue the investigation, much less come to a decision. Their actions, coupled with their rudeness, and the fact that the books were found in a Floater cluster made us broker the compromise that we did.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-04-30 10:21pm

Rogue 9 wrote:Free, public encryption now, maybe. But we're operating with a much higher computer power level.

So what? Increasing the key length by one bit DOUBLES the time it takes to decrypt anything it encrypts. Double the key length, you're in serious pain.

I know about one time pads. They're the biggest pain in the ass of all, though.

You obviously don't know enough if you thought it was highly advanced, and that only the NSA had access to it.

And if I put human intelligence on the ground it will be automatically discovered the instant I post about it. The levels of metagaming in this thing are outrageous; I don't trust for an instant that any HUMINT on the ground wouldn't just happen to be pulled over for speeding and busted in the first five minutes.

So instead of trying to play the game, you make the problem worse. Super. Secondly, if you do things properly (and don't make stupid mistakes), you can get pretty far. What from Bugsby tells you that he would have found out your spies in an instant? No, instead of trying to make the game interesting, you powergame. Isn't that what everyone just whaled on Lazerus for?

I mean, if people are willing to metagame outside the realm of possibility (case in point; the Floaters, or at least Thirdfain, obviously knew that the Monacorans would help them in their theft and piracy even though they had no means of gaining this knowledge)

You obviously didn't read Straha's order of battle carefully enough. He knew about the Monocoran's unwillingness to allow combat in Sol, and banked that Alyrium wouldn't care and fire first, immediately putting the Arcane Empire on the Monocoran's shit list. That's not metagame thinking, that's being savvy, conniving, and using what resources one has available to their best effect. Sorry if you didn't catch it, but just because you couldn't figure it out doesn't make it metagame thinking.

then they will make the far easier leap of metagaming inside the realm of possibility, however remote the possibility may be. I have DMed waaaaaay too many RPGs to not see the patterns here.

Uh-huh. Right. So because there is stuff going on that YOU think is metagame thinking, you respond with MORE metagame thinking, rather than trying to remove as much metagame thinking as possible?

Good job. Glad to know you're one of the good guys out there.

In case you haven't noticed, the way to deal with this shit is to point it out and discuss what's going on, rather than respond with increasing levels of bullshit. That sort of crap is what has KILLED previous STGODs. So instead of pulling this passive-agressive raising of stakes, why don't you TALK to people, work things out, remove confusion, rather than add to it and make things unplayable?

InnocentBystander · Post by **InnocentBystander** » 2004-04-30 10:27pm

I don't think its metagaming. The Peace of Earth is public knowledge, everyone should know about it, assuming they READ the OOB, it was the whole first quarter of his OOB. Furthermore, earth is, well, the homeworld and the center of the known galaxy. If you don't have anywhere else to go, why not go "home"?

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-04-30 10:36pm

Why not run to Ouster turf? They are "family" are they not?

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-04-30 10:37pm

frigidmagi wrote:Why not run to Ouster turf? They are "family" are they not?

Maybe, maybe not. The Ousters themselves might not be interested in dealing with a pissed off Arcane Empire, so they might just turn over their bretheren to avoid an international incident. However, the Floaters KNEW they would be protected in Earth space, without a doubt, so they played on it.

After all, why not take a possibility over a sure thing?

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-04-30 10:45pm

The stakes will be raised until the stolen property is returned. I'm sorry, my power wouldn't just let an ally be ground into the dust because everyone else found the ways to completely neutralize the source of his power. (Laz was just being blatant with trying to buy hundreds of scrolls of Mordenkainan's disjunction, but being able to do that to him is the purpose behind this whole thing and everyone knows it.)

We have people knowing precisely where ships are going to be, precisely where to place minefields to catch merchant convoys, precisely how to evade my patrols (without even posting about ever actually doing it, thank you very much; the results just appear), and loads of other grade A bullshit. If I was DM and had no power in the game I would be cracking down like there's no tomorrow on half the shit pulled here. I built a kickass navy at the expense of mediocre ground forces, and people just ignore the navy and assume the army's totally incompetent as well as small. If Thirdfain gets to assume that his smugglers can get past my blockade without even posting anything about it, and Lazerus assumes that my gunners can't even hit within a hundred kilometers of a ship that's actively laying mines, cloak or not, then I see no reason to believe that everyone won't just assume that my intelligence services are totally incompetent as well. You expect me to run into a pattern like that and not see metagame thinking? You're on crack. Its obvious.

InnocentBystander · Post by **InnocentBystander** » 2004-04-30 10:50pm

There's nothing saying they knew of the ousters, or at least where they were. On the other hand, everyone knows where Earth is.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-04-30 11:02pm

Rogue 9 wrote:The stakes will be raised until the stolen property is returned. I'm sorry, my power wouldn't just let an ally be ground into the dust because everyone else found the ways to completely neutralize the source of his power. (Laz was just being blatant with trying to buy hundreds of scrolls of Mordenkainan's disjunction, but being able to do that to him is the purpose behind this whole thing and everyone knows it.)

Guess what? Not everyone is the threat Laz was. The biggest problem with Laz was that the symbiotes have genetic memory, which means he would have been instantly able to replicate Aly's magic.

But, guess what? The rest of us can't do that, and to powergame and bullshit because of an assumed threat is not acceptable. Similarly, Aly's claim that his magic books and full knowledge of how his magic works would utterly annihilate his nation is bullshit. NO race should have a single piece of tech (or magic) on which the entire nation relies on to be kept secret or else all is lost.

We have people knowing precisely where ships are going to be,

Yeah, Alyrium and his Hyperspace Diviners, which YOU are defending at the moment.

precisely where to place minefields to catch merchant convoys,

Trade routes are easy to ambush, that's a fact of life. In any case, it was mostly Lazerus doing that.

precisely how to evade my patrols (without even posting about ever actually doing it, thank you very much; the results just appear),

Again, this is a beef with Lazerus you seem to have. There is no reason to apply it to other players without providing examples of such behavior.

and loads of other grade A bullshit. If I was DM and had no power in the game I would be cracking down like there's no tomorrow on half the shit pulled here.

Yeah, and so would I. However, note that your actions are not indicative of this right now. Instead of calling people on bullshit, you're responding with your own. That's not acceptable, and I'm calling you on it. What you are doing now is not helping the game progress fluidly.

I built a kickass navy at the expense of mediocre ground forces, and people just ignore the navy and assume the army's totally incompetent as well as small.

Meanwhile, the fact that the Covenant of God are RELIGIOUS FANATICS was conveinently ignored by you and Alyrium all throughout your occupation. You both assumed that they would cow over and accept their invaders without any problems whatsoever.

If Thirdfain gets to assume that his smugglers can get past my blockade without even posting anything about it,

Okay, finally, you have some meat on someone aside from Lazerus (who is currently a non-entity in the game for all intents and purposes). So call this to Thirdfain's attention and ask for clarification, I'm sure he'd be more than willing to explain himself here, as he has done in the past.

and Lazerus assumes that my gunners can't even hit within a hundred kilometers of a ship that's actively laying mines, cloak or not, then I see no reason to believe that everyone won't just assume that my intelligence services are totally incompetent as well. You expect me to run into a pattern like that and not see metagame thinking? You're on crack. Its obvious.

So, let me get this straight. You're taking the behaviors of THE WORST PLAYER IN THE GAME and you are then expecting that everyone else in the game is going to be EXACTLY LIKE HIM, and somehow I'm the one on crack? That is total, utter bullshit. It does not logically follow. Everyone had a problem with Laz's bullshit for the most part, why would they behave exactly like him? Now that he's gone, why wouldn't we strive to make sure that sort of crap DID NOT HAPPEN AGAIN?

Face it, you've got a grudge that you're real sore about, and now that Lazerus is gone, you're taking it out on anyone else who presents themselves as a target. That is completely out of line.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-04-30 11:04pm

If you look back at the pages you see Rogue 9 doing nothing but calling people on Bullshit, but getting nowhere. Why should he continue on a tactic that has not yielded results?

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-04-30 11:09pm

frigidmagi wrote:If you look back at the pages you see Rogue 9 doing nothing but calling people on Bullshit, but getting nowhere. Why should he continue on a tactic that has not yielded results?

Because the other way will kill the STGOD, for starters. I know Rogue 9 was calling people on bullshit, but the speed at which everyone was posting, it's understandable that some stuff was glossed over.

It's regrettable, but to respond in this sort of passive-aggressive fashion and to toss around baseless accusations against one player based on the actions of ANOTHER player is total madness.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-04-30 11:12pm

Yet it might be the only way to stay in the game.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-04-30 11:14pm

Again, this is a beef with Lazerus you seem to have. There is no reason to apply it to other players without providing examples of such behavior.

No, that one was with Thirdfain. He smuggled weapons through the blockade en masse. They just appeared in the hands of the insurgents and the freaking huge carrier battle group in orbit didn't get to have any say in it at all.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-04-30 11:20pm

frigidmagi wrote:Yet it might be the only way to stay in the game.

Bullshit. This sort of action is unacceptable and will utterly destroy any game balance there might have been.

I joined this game shortly after Laz left the first time, because I figured that the fat had been pretty much shed and the game would be left to mostly reasonable players who I would enjoy playing with.

Then Laz came back shortly after I posted my OOB. I was wary, but decided to continue on, hoping that before long he would either shape up or ship out, and that we could return to sensible playing.

Well, guess what, Laz shipped out, and he took his bullshit with him. That should be the END of it. HE IS GONE. LET THE GRUDGE GO WITH HIM.

If this sort of behavior is going to reign supreme in the STGOD, my desire to continue playing will diminish rapidly, as this will no longer be an STGOD, but a TGOD. All it's going to be is rapidly increase autofellatio which I have no desire to watch, much less take part in.

I suggest we stop the bullshit now and get back to actually playing. Putting effort into your actions in paramount. Agents should not appear out of thin air in the heart of a power, they should be worked in. Fleets should not be able to ambush other fleets without some actual work put into creating the subterfuge. So on and so forth. That's what makes this game interesting and worth playing. Simply saying that you do something which flies in the face of logic or what has been established is bullshit and should not be allowed. End. No Erasies.

If you want to play a TGOD, go ahead and make your own. This is an STGOD, and that should stand for something.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-04-30 11:23pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
Again, this is a beef with Lazerus you seem to have. There is no reason to apply it to other players without providing examples of such behavior.
No, that one was with Thirdfain. He smuggled weapons through the blockade en masse. They just appeared in the hands of the insurgents and the freaking huge carrier battle group in orbit didn't get to have any say in it at all.

Considering that Alyrium was turning it into a massive economic planet, it stands to reason that there is a lot of trade going in and out, does it not? Are you checking every single ship and every possible shipment that comes in? Because, if so, you are severely hampering how much money Alyrium is making.

In any event, you should bring this up with Thirdfain, not me. This is a beef between you two, and you should sort it out. It may well be that this complaint of yours has a perfectly rational, in game explanation that you failed to detect, similar to the Floater decision to enter Monocoran space.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-04-30 11:44pm

Y'know, I just looked back through the game thread and realized that I neglected to specify the force composition of the fleet I sent to Ix'ador. It is as follows:

1 Venture class fleet carrier
2 Claymore class battleships
3 Carnegie class cruisers
2 Merovingian class fast carriers
1 Warhammer class missile cruiser
6 Starlight class destroyers
10 Dawn Raider class frigates
6 Sun Striker class light carriers
4 Nova class missile destroyers
5 Solar Flare class minelayer destroyers

All are assigned from 5th Fleet; this still leaves a considerable force over Pinnacle, though not so large as the one that crushed Tycho.

Bugsby · Post by **Bugsby** » 2004-04-30 11:49pm

It's easy enough to tell what the problem is. The BS propogated in the Laz era has made everyone paranoid of powergaming, metagaming, BSing, and the like. Aly and Rogue got the worst of it, so you guys are the most jumpy about calling people. Now that Laz is gone, let us resume the cordial playing conditions that we tried for in the beginning. Dont scream BS whenever anything happens. Just ask, amke a suggestion, and wait for the response. And if debates start to get nowhere, just wait for a mod. Follow these guidelines and EVERYONE will be happy.

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2004-04-30 11:53pm

You know, with the recent string of posts, would it be out of line to suggest that we banish Lazerus from STGOD 4?

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-04-30 11:56pm

I thought he was gone? Pablo told him that he could not play a 3rd power.

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2004-04-30 11:57pm

frigidmagi wrote:I thought he was gone? Pablo told him that he could not play a 3rd power.

He was told that he should play the Goa'ould out...

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-04-30 11:59pm

Straha wrote:You know, with the recent string of posts, would it be out of line to suggest that we banish Lazerus from STGOD 4?

I think my response to this suggestion is pretty obvious, but right now I think we already have. By denying him a third power, we force him into a position where he would have to take a neutered power into the game in order to continue, which would require cunning and guile in order to make into a viable threat to any nation.

I figure it's a pretty good way to make sure that if he does return, he will be summarily smacked down. He has a chance, but then so does a snowflake in a star.

If you want to make it official though, hey, by all means.

Bugsby · Post by **Bugsby** » 2004-05-01 12:00am

On one hand I would feel really bad about giving him the eternal boot. On the other hand, I would feel even worse if he game back and gummed up the game again. So.... yeah.

InnocentBystander · Post by **InnocentBystander** » 2004-05-01 12:06am

As I said in the OOB, he must pick up his first empire or leave STGOD 4. It's not unreasonable!

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-05-01 12:11am

No it's not.

Bugsby · Post by **Bugsby** » 2004-05-01 12:19am

Oh, Rogue, I just had a thought. I think the idea of intercepting encoded messages, as well as who has the decryption keys, is kind of a moot point. The REASON that "encrypted transmissions" are sent is to give other players a heads up. We could be doing these things over PM, but in many cases we choose not to in order to let everyone know what is going on... so we won't be "pulling stuff out of our ass" when we act on what we transmitted. And frankly, between the two options (EVERYTHING covert vs. encoded transmissions), I would prefer the latter.