Fencing Advice

[Stuart Mackey]

It depends. If you're a decent modern, sport fencer, and you went into combat against an untrained man armed with rapiers, you'll probably win, as the footwork is somewhat similar to actual fencing. Handwork is a bit less so, but still.

If you are in actual combat I think you will find that the simple use of a sword blade is not going to be your only concern.

What in all the bloody hells are you talking about?

To further what Keevan said, in combat you are not limited by rules..you dont get to choose you location, there is no referee. you enemy, for that is what you must think of him, is trying to cause you serious bodily harm or even kill you. As such one must use every weapopn at ones disposal, be that fist and foot or head.
Your opponent is going to take a look at that nice extended leg,bayonet parry that silly excuse for a sword, grapple you and break the leg, and stomp on your, ribs and/or head..all because you dont know mentally and phisically how to deal with something outside of a nice, safe, cosseted rule book.

[Stuart Mackey]

I am not an expert. I am much more likely to attack, disengage around the parry, and stab someone through the throat before they can bring their blade around. The attacking with the broken blade is a desperation move for a reason. It has a decent chance of working, as most casual weapon users get entirely too caught up in their weapon, and don't keep track of their other options. If however, they do keep it together, I am very likely dead.

If you wish to use fencing techniqes on me, the moment you move to the lunge I am moving to a point where you are denied the use of your sword, I then grapple you, perform a takedown and proceed to stamp on your head. I never play by rules and if you train that way you will always be helpless before some one who does not.

When I say expert, I am talking about possibly the scariest guy I know. Noteworthy feats include fencing and beating two people at once, and winning two out of three fencing competitions while sleep-deprived and after giving blood(he missed out on Sabre by all of two points). He could lunge farther and faster than I thought was physically possible prior to meeting him.

I am sure he is very dangerous..within the rules As I dont know the person I cannot jusdge his ability outside of those rules.

[Thirdfain]

I've been fencing for 3 years, am a starter for a college team, and you know what?

Stuart Mackey is completely right. Fencing is to actual swordfighting as football is to maneuver warfare. Many principles may carrry over, but they are in completely different leagues.

[Stofsk]

I've been fencing for 3 years, am a starter for a college team, and you know what?

Stuart Mackey is completely right. Fencing is to actual swordfighting as football is to maneuver warfare. Many principles may carrry over, but they are in completely different leagues.

Absolutely. Fencing is great fun, but the moment I tried doing something different in a bout - say, sidestep to my opponent's right as he came in on a lunge - I would be penalised for breaking the rules.

Fencing's just a sport. You could pick up a real sword and be in a better position to use than Joe Blow off the street who's never handled a real sword in his life, but I wouldn't feel confident going after a kenjutsu master. Hell even Joe Nutball off the street who attacks people with a katana or broadsword would still be dangerous - he may not know how to use it, but then he may not care either.

Stuart you sound like someone who has some martial arts training. Am I correct?

[Stuart Mackey]

Stuart you sound like someone who has some martial arts training. Am I correct?

I have spent some time learning millitary close combat tequniques.

[consequences]

I am sure he is very dangerous..within the rules As I dont know the person I cannot jusdge his ability outside of those rules.

Rules? We did fencing practice for conditioning, precision and reflex training, then we went out into the parking lot and whaled on each other with blunt objects for a couple hours. Rules are there to instill discipline, and to be discarded to fake out your opponent at an opportune moment.

[Stuart Mackey]

I am sure he is very dangerous..within the rules As I dont know the person I cannot jusdge his ability outside of those rules.

Rules? We did fencing practice for conditioning, precision and reflex training, then we went out into the parking lot and whaled on each other with blunt objects for a couple hours. Rules are there to instill discipline, and to be discarded to fake out your opponent at an opportune moment.

Thats nice..but the point is that you are useing rules..you should never be useing 'rules, to be disgarded at an opportune moment' because, in combat, your enemy never uses rules, which puts you at a pycological and pysical disadvantage. Train as you fight, fight as you train.

[consequences]

I am sure he is very dangerous..within the rules As I dont know the person I cannot jusdge his ability outside of those rules.

Rules? We did fencing practice for conditioning, precision and reflex training, then we went out into the parking lot and whaled on each other with blunt objects for a couple hours. Rules are there to instill discipline, and to be discarded to fake out your opponent at an opportune moment.

Thats nice..but the point is that you are useing rules..you should never be useing 'rules, to be disgarded at an opportune moment' because, in combat, your enemy never uses rules, which puts you at a pycological and pysical disadvantage. Train as you fight, fight as you train.

Its called a 'feint', 'ploy', or 'strategem'. Anyone with knowledge of the style they are observing being used is going to make assumptions based on the limitations of that style. Anyone without knowledge of it is going to be very surprised to find three feet of steel through their throat.
Everybody uses a rulebook, its knowing when to throw it away that's important. This is universally true, it just takes different forms.

[Stuart Mackey]

Rules? We did fencing practice for conditioning, precision and reflex training, then we went out into the parking lot and whaled on each other with blunt objects for a couple hours. Rules are there to instill discipline, and to be discarded to fake out your opponent at an opportune moment.

Thats nice..but the point is that you are useing rules..you should never be useing 'rules, to be disgarded at an opportune moment' because, in combat, your enemy never uses rules, which puts you at a pycological and pysical disadvantage. Train as you fight, fight as you train.

Its called a 'feint', 'ploy', or 'strategem'. Anyone with knowledge of the style they are observing being used is going to make assumptions based on the limitations of that style. Anyone without knowledge of it is going to be very surprised to find three feet of steel through their throat.
Everybody uses a rulebook, its knowing when to throw it away that's important. This is universally true, it just takes different forms.

Thats not what I am talking about. Fencing as a sport is not the same as combat..there is no rules in combat. If you train as in a sport you cannot translate that into combat as your enemy will act outside of anything you are trained for and you will not be able to adapt to that.
I for one do not use a rule book and was never trained to, to say that everybody uses a rule book is incorrect and is a gross gernralisation.

[consequences]

Thats nice..but the point is that you are useing rules..you should never be useing 'rules, to be disgarded at an opportune moment' because, in combat, your enemy never uses rules, which puts you at a pycological and pysical disadvantage. Train as you fight, fight as you train.

Its called a 'feint', 'ploy', or 'strategem'. Anyone with knowledge of the style they are observing being used is going to make assumptions based on the limitations of that style. Anyone without knowledge of it is going to be very surprised to find three feet of steel through their throat.
Everybody uses a rulebook, its knowing when to throw it away that's important. This is universally true, it just takes different forms.

I for one do not use a rule book and was never trained to, to say that everybody uses a rule book is incorrect and is a gross gernralisation.

The USMC, US Army, and every other organised military force of the 20th-21st centuries disagree with you.

[Stuart Mackey]

The USMC, US Army, and every other organised military force of the 20th-21st centuries disagree with you.

What are you talking about ?I am talking about unarmed combat not the fucking Geneva Convantion during a state of war.
Can you answer what I mentrioned in the preceeding post?

[consequences]

The USMC, US Army, and every other organised military force of the 20th-21st centuries disagree with you.

What are you talking about ?I am talking about unarmed combat not the fucking Geneva Convantion during a state of war.
Can you answer what I mentrioned in the preceeding post?

One of the points of most forms of combat training, whether it be for sport or with more serious intent, is to instill a set of moves at the reflexive level, so that you don't sit there actively thinking "Okay, I'm going to sidestep, and kick him in the kneecap as he attempts to lunge", and then realise that you've been dead for the last few seconds. There is always a rulebook to follow, although in certain styles such as Jeet Kun Do, you derive the rules you follow yourself rather than have them be from an outside source.
I am not talking about the Geneva Conventions, I'm referring to the fact that in any given combat situation, there is generally going to be a single most effective way of doing things, regardless of how much amatuers would like to 'think outside the box' all the time.
In any given situation, there are going to be a number of moves that are effective, and a much larger number that will prove counter-productive. Against an untrained opponent, the standard moves are usually the way to go, as they tend to be the most efficient and effective, and an untrained person is not as likely to know the appropriate counters. Against a trained opponent who isn't up to your standards, again, the book is usually the way to go, as you should be able to win. Against someone who you know is going to rip your head off if you face them normally, you have nothing to lose by improvising.

[Stuart Mackey]

One of the points of most forms of combat training, whether it be for sport or with more serious intent, is to instill a set of moves at the reflexive level, so that you don't sit there actively thinking "Okay, I'm going to sidestep, and kick him in the kneecap as he attempts to lunge", and then realise that you've been dead for the last few seconds. There is always a rulebook to follow, although in certain styles such as Jeet Kun Do, you derive the rules you follow yourself rather than have them be from an outside source.
I am not talking about the Geneva Conventions, I'm referring to the fact that in any given combat situation, there is generally going to be a single most effective way of doing things, regardless of how much amatuers would like to 'think outside the box' all the time.
In any given situation, there are going to be a number of moves that are effective, and a much larger number that will prove counter-productive. Against an untrained opponent, the standard moves are usually the way to go, as they tend to be the most efficient and effective, and an untrained person is not as likely to know the appropriate counters. Against a trained opponent who isn't up to your standards, again, the book is usually the way to go, as you should be able to win. Against someone who you know is going to rip your head off if you face them normally, you have nothing to lose by improvising.

Thre are guidlines then there are rules, there is a difference.
If you use the rules if fencing against a person trained in sword combat, you are going to be at a disadvantage, why? because the sword fighter is against a person who who is trained for a sport where move A is countered by X or Y, allthough I have found this true in martial art as well. A sword fighter does not hold to such rules and works according to guidlines.

[Keevan_Colton]

Also, you must realise, the moves you learn in fencing are only those LEGAL in fencing. There's an entire world of moves that exist outside those two parallel lines which can seriously fuck you up...for example...the 10ft lunge, that has to be along a straight line, you cant get that far quickly otherwise...say for example the person skip steps or simple ducks to the side....say, to your right, and lands one on your knee as you overextend like a chump...

Rules that exist in a vaccum are no use at all once the world comes a-calling.

[Stuart Mackey]

Also, you must realise, the moves you learn in fencing are only those LEGAL in fencing. There's an entire world of moves that exist outside those two parallel lines which can seriously fuck you up...for example...the 10ft lunge, that has to be along a straight line, you cant get that far quickly otherwise...say for example the person skip steps or simple ducks to the side....say, to your right, and lands one on your knee as you overextend like a chump...

Rules that exist in a vaccum are no use at all once the world comes a-calling.

Sing that old time gospel, baby!

[consequences]

Also, you must realise, the moves you learn in fencing are only those LEGAL in fencing. There's an entire world of moves that exist outside those two parallel lines which can seriously fuck you up...for example...the 10ft lunge, that has to be along a straight line, you cant get that far quickly otherwise...say for example the person skip steps or simple ducks to the side....say, to your right, and lands one on your knee as you overextend like a chump...

Rules that exist in a vaccum are no use at all once the world comes a-calling.

Stepping to the side and hitting the kneecap would be a really interesting trick, considering how far in front of you the sword extends, and the fact that a lunge is supposed to end with a sword in the opponent, not you standing behind them.
Your basic point sill stands however.

[Keevan_Colton]

Stepping to the side and hitting the kneecap would be a really interesting trick, considering how far in front of you the sword extends, and the fact that a lunge is supposed to end with a sword in the opponent, not you standing behind them.
Your basic point sill stands however.

Trust me when I say it can work...the fencing club never really liked me.

[consequences]

Stepping to the side and hitting the kneecap would be a really interesting trick, considering how far in front of you the sword extends, and the fact that a lunge is supposed to end with a sword in the opponent, not you standing behind them.
Your basic point sill stands however.

Trust me when I say it can work...the fencing club never really liked me.

If you had done that for real in the context of a club, I would quite literally have tried to kill you on the spot. I am hoping that you just demonstrated the possibility without destroying anyone's kneecaps for real.

[Keevan_Colton]

Stepping to the side and hitting the kneecap would be a really interesting trick, considering how far in front of you the sword extends, and the fact that a lunge is supposed to end with a sword in the opponent, not you standing behind them.
Your basic point sill stands however.

Trust me when I say it can work...the fencing club never really liked me.

If you had done that for real in the context of a club, I would quite literally have tried to kill you on the spot. I am hoping that you just demonstrated the possibility without destroying anyone's kneecaps for real.

Freeform sparring, some fencers insisted it was the pinnacle of the art of sword fighting and were shown quite quickly the error of their ways. No permanent harm was done, just severe bruising of the ego.

[consequences]

Trust me when I say it can work...the fencing club never really liked me.

If you had done that for real in the context of a club, I would quite literally have tried to kill you on the spot. I am hoping that you just demonstrated the possibility without destroying anyone's kneecaps for real.

Freeform sparring, some fencers insisted it was the pinnacle of the art of sword fighting and were shown quite quickly the error of their ways. No permanent harm was done, just severe bruising of the ego.

'Pinnacle of the art of sword-fighting'? WTF?
The most I'll ever claim is that it provides some useful training, and a nasty stabby surprise for those who are unfamiliar with it. Personally, I'd much rather be a grandmaster of something like Jujitsu than fencing, its much more applicable in most situations where you are going to need to hurt somebody.

[Stuart Mackey]

Also, you must realise, the moves you learn in fencing are only those LEGAL in fencing. There's an entire world of moves that exist outside those two parallel lines which can seriously fuck you up...for example...the 10ft lunge, that has to be along a straight line, you cant get that far quickly otherwise...say for example the person skip steps or simple ducks to the side....say, to your right, and lands one on your knee as you overextend like a chump...

Rules that exist in a vaccum are no use at all once the world comes a-calling.

Stepping to the side and hitting the kneecap would be a really interesting trick, considering how far in front of you the sword extends, and the fact that a lunge is supposed to end with a sword in the opponent, not you standing behind them.
Your basic point sill stands however.

That particular move, against long weapons is something I have trained for so many times I can do it in my sleep, I assure you its possible. While you can end up behind the opponent you are supposed to end up just outside of their peripheral vision.

[consequences]

Also, you must realise, the moves you learn in fencing are only those LEGAL in fencing. There's an entire world of moves that exist outside those two parallel lines which can seriously fuck you up...for example...the 10ft lunge, that has to be along a straight line, you cant get that far quickly otherwise...say for example the person skip steps or simple ducks to the side....say, to your right, and lands one on your knee as you overextend like a chump...

Rules that exist in a vaccum are no use at all once the world comes a-calling.

Stepping to the side and hitting the kneecap would be a really interesting trick, considering how far in front of you the sword extends, and the fact that a lunge is supposed to end with a sword in the opponent, not you standing behind them.
Your basic point sill stands however.

That particular move, against long weapons is something I have trained for so many times I can do it in my sleep, I assure you its possible. While you can end up behind the opponent you are supposed to end up just outside of their peripheral vision.

Oh, I understand it can be done, but it seems risky, in that the swordsman can almost certainly turn his blade and catch you on it.

[Keevan_Colton]

Oh, I understand it can be done, but it seems risky, in that the swordsman can almost certainly turn his blade and catch you on it.

You can keep your own blade vertical, between them and you, to block a sweeping cut, or move fast...the most effective moves are often those that require a big brass pair.

[Stuart Mackey]

Oh, I understand it can be done, but it seems risky, in that the swordsman can almost certainly turn his blade and catch you on it.

What counts is how fast you move, but the attacker has to be commited. What you are esentially doing is a half circle to put yourself outside peripheral vision then you can perform your nasty move of the week.
Of cource we always practiced this unarmed against an armed opponent.

[consequences]

Oh, I understand it can be done, but it seems risky, in that the swordsman can almost certainly turn his blade and catch you on it.

You can keep your own blade vertical, between them and you, to block a sweeping cut, or move fast...the most effective moves are often those that require a big brass pair.

If you have your own blade, wouldn't it make more sense to strike with it at your enemy while he is busy lunging? If you are far enough outside his vision to kneecap him, you can almost certainly get him in the throat with your sword, without exposing yourself nearly as much.