Since Shep hasn't said it yet ... (re: Iraq prisoners)

[Darth Wong]

... Canadian soldiers beat and tortured a Somalian prisoner to death a decade ago, and it didn't create anywhere near as much international furor as the non-fatal humiliation and degradation inflicted upon Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers in Iraq. Why?

A few interesting hypotheses come to mind:

1. Canada is small, so nobody cares what we do. That seems unlikely; an atrocity is an atrocity.
2. The Americans have occupied Iraq, so people are holding them to a higher standard. However, large portions of Somalia were basically under UN military occupation at the time the Somali teenager was beaten to death.
3. Canadians were forthright about what happened and took action, punishing those responsible and disbanding the entire unit of the Army from which the guilty parties had come.

Personally, I think the last item is the reason. If you look at the behaviour of the Americans since the facts came out, it looks really bad. First they tell the press not to release the photos, ie- suppress the truth thanks to a press corps that has lost its testicles since 9/11. Then they start making up obvious bullshit excuses like "that soldier was never trained in the Geneva Convention", a hideously stupid lie since every soldier is told what his own rights are under the Geneva Convention, so he obviously knows what rights prisoners should have. And then you have the Bill O'Rightwing Factor ranting that CBS was a traitorous organization for not obeying the wishes of the Ministry of Truth. As with many things in life, reluctance to be forthright with the truth ends up exacerbating the situation.

[Rogue 9]

You're probably right, though from my understanding its the soldier himself who claims he wasn't trained; not the government. (Obviously bullshit; he's an MP reservist who's a prison guard in real life. He should damn well know how to handle prisoners.)

On a completely unrelated note, I thought we weren't supposed to use titles as the beginning of the first sentence in the post.

[MKSheppard]

Canadians were forthright about what happened and took action, punishing those responsible and disbanding the entire unit of the Army from which the guilty parties had come.

Stupid, you disbanded your entire Parachute regiment because of a few
bad apples?

[Aaron]

Canadians were forthright about what happened and took action, punishing those responsible and disbanding the entire unit of the Army from which the guilty parties had come.

The entire situation was overreacted on. I agree with the decision to punish the men that were responsible, even though the wrong man was convicted. But disbanding the Canadian Airborne Regiment was ridiculous. The army had cleaned up the problems with the unit by the time the government ordered it disbanded. It was a purely political decision. Was the Vancouver Police disbanded after 6 men beat that drug dealer? No, of course not.

In regards to the OP. I think it's because they tried to cover it up. And that they are using pathetic excuses. ALL soldiers are taught the Geneva Convention from basic training onwards and they would have had a refresher before they embarked on their tour of duty in Iraq. It gets even worse when you consider that MP's (military police) are gaurding these guys. POW handling is the bread and butter of MP units, so the guy thats claiming that he had no training is lying, and I can gaurantee that. These soldiers should be court-martialed and spend a long-time breaking rocks in Leavenworth.

[Vympel]

They disbanded the whole regiment?

[Aaron]

Canadians were forthright about what happened and took action, punishing those responsible and disbanding the entire unit of the Army from which the guilty parties had come.

Stupid, you disbanded your entire Parachute regiment because of a few
bad apples?

It's even worse than that. Pvt Brown, the soldier that was convicted of torturing and killing the teenager, was only responsible for kicking the kid once or twice. Master Corporal Clayton Matchee was the one who killed the kid. But he hung himself and is now a vegetable.

[Sea Skimmer]

Stupid, you disbanded your entire Parachute regiment because of a few
bad apples?

They disbanded the unit as an entity, however they then went and created a parachute company in each of several other regiments with the same personal. I'd bet saving money had as much to do with it as anything else.

[18-Till-I-Die]

The third one seems to me to be the reason, as the Canadian government actually actively punished the offenders it still looked bad, but it looked, at leats, like they were trying to make amends. That, i think, made all the difference.

[Master of Ossus]

I think it's more likely that the different American policies are being criticized more than the actual acts of the soldiers. The actions that were photographed, IMO, are seen as representative of more significant issues with the occupation, whereas the Canadian incident did not involve such widely criticized policy problems. Also, let's face it, incidents involving Americans are almost always given greater press coverage than incidents which do not involve Americans.

[Jeremy]

Weren't the soldiers court marshalled?

[Rogue 9]

Weren't the soldiers court marshalled?

Yes, they were indeed court martialed.

[AdmiralKanos]

You were just itching for a chance to use that pic, weren't you? Admit it.

[Rogue 9]

I admit it. Yes, sorry. I'll shut up now.

[Metrion Cascade]

I also think part of the fuss stems from the fact that the war and its results are THE political footballs of the day here in the States.

[Sarevok]

The third one seems to me to be the reason, as the Canadian government actually actively punished the offenders it still looked bad, but it looked, at leats, like they were trying to make amends. That, i think, made all the difference.

The US army should have done the same thing. That would have helped the changed notion that the US does not care about human rights and only uses it as an excuse to invade other nations.

[Solauren]

with the Canadian incident, it also probably has alot to do with Canada's military record vs the United States
(no, not the 'wars won' record)

I mean, look at the Canadian military since World War II. Everything we've been involved in (that I'm aware of, correct me if I'm wrong) has been UN approved/sanctioned military efforts. i.e Korea.
Above board, honest, good-planetary-citizen type stuff.

Also, when Canada fucks up, we admit it.

Now, compare that to the United States.
Miltary record; 1 word: Vietnam.

Since then, in many ways, the american press has been like a hungry pack of wolves waiting to rip into any incident involving the military.
Case in point, the articiles you see periodically going "Will Iraq become a new vietnam?"

Also, on the political side, well, we all know about that.
Toss in the running 'conspiracy therorist' bullshit....


In short
Canada: We're small, honest, and we fucked up. We apologize and will punish the offenders.
States: We're big, lied about the invasion, and some soldier fucked up. YOU apologize for questioning us before we punish you.

[Rubberanvil]

From what I've been reading on the subject is issue is the whole chain of command from private to the general in charge of Abu Gharaib is responsible for the mess.

[PainRack]

It could also be part of the negative press about the war itself. During Bosnia, a US peacekeeper shot a kid running towards him in a roadblock, the outcry died soon enough.

[Col. Crackpot]

two perfect cases of what not to do, one in each extreme.

[Stormbringer]

I think it's a simple matter of 1, 3, and (4) an unpopular war.

1) Canada quite simply doesn't have the sort of international animosity (whether it's rational or not) directed at that the US does. People are simply less likely to care because it is Canada. It's an atrocity but frankly those happen and unless it happens to them most people usually don't give a shit.

3) It still boggles my mind that some people wanted to supress this sorry business. I would understand not spreading details but fucking hell, this is not the time to imitate a clam. That more than anything turned this from a serious disciplinary lapse into a first class clusterfuck.


And there's the simple fact that Iraq both domesticaly and world wide is a controversial war. With both sides circling like vultures for any scrap of justification this was bound to become a big issue. The peace advocates, particularly the morons that are convinced military = Neanderthal, were going to nail this unfortunate situation as use it as proof of their beliefs and of course the extremist love the propoganda value.

[Sea Skimmer]

The US army should have done the same thing. That would have helped the changed notion that the US does not care about human rights and only uses it as an excuse to invade other nations.

Should had? Canada disbanned the unit two years after the murder, what do you expect the US Army to do, try and convict those involved in a week and then disbanned a unit thats a rather major part of the occupation force with no replacement readily avlaibul? What a great plan that would be.

[Guardsman Bass]

The US army should have done the same thing. That would have helped the changed notion that the US does not care about human rights and only uses it as an excuse to invade other nations.

Should had? Canada disbanned the unit two years after the murder, what do you expect the US Army to do, try and convict those involved in a week and then disbanned a unit thats a rather major part of the occupation force with no replacement readily avlaibul? What a great plan that would be.

We'd have to rely upon the new Iraq army group they sent under a Baathist general to root out insurgents in Fallujah. You know, the one that announced no insurgents were in the city

Other than that, an atrocity is an atrocity, but since the Iraq war is a controversial United States military action, the critics raise hell about it(and they ought to).