Why don't we make our own RPG system?

lazerus · Post by **lazerus** » 2004-05-04 05:20pm

for awhile now i've been trying to create my own RPG system, and have always failed simply because it's too much work for one person.

But what if all the gaming nerd minds that view this forum started a communal effort? With the Geekness factor on here, it could be great!

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-05-04 05:22pm

Why? It's a huge morass of complexity to create for no appreciable value, since it's most likely that a system that encompasses ones desires exists. One of our forum-goers DID make a gaming system by himself, mind. I just don't see the point because there's already tons of systems and if someone is too lazy to look for one that fits their likes, it's not my problem.

lazerus · Post by **lazerus** » 2004-05-04 05:24pm

SirNitram wrote:Why? It's a huge morass of complexity to create for no appreciable value, since it's most likely that a system that encompasses ones desires exists. One of our forum-goers DID make a gaming system by himself, mind. I just don't see the point because there's already tons of systems and if someone is too lazy to look for one that fits their likes, it's not my problem.

Shoulnd't you be raining on somebody ELSE's parade today?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-05-04 05:27pm

lazerus wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Why? It's a huge morass of complexity to create for no appreciable value, since it's most likely that a system that encompasses ones desires exists. One of our forum-goers DID make a gaming system by himself, mind. I just don't see the point because there's already tons of systems and if someone is too lazy to look for one that fits their likes, it's not my problem.
Shoulnd't you be raining on somebody ELSE's parade today?

No, you made yourself a target by proposing a massive expediture of effort with little/no return. That you have a persecution complex doesn't bother me that much.

In either case, now you have your answer of why we don't.

lazerus · Post by **lazerus** » 2004-05-04 05:29pm

SirNitram wrote:
lazerus wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Why? It's a huge morass of complexity to create for no appreciable value, since it's most likely that a system that encompasses ones desires exists. One of our forum-goers DID make a gaming system by himself, mind. I just don't see the point because there's already tons of systems and if someone is too lazy to look for one that fits their likes, it's not my problem.
Shoulnd't you be raining on somebody ELSE's parade today?
No, you made yourself a target by proposing a massive expediture of effort with little/no return. That you have a persecution complex doesn't bother me that much.

In either case, now you have your answer of why we don't.

No, I have the answer as to why YOU don't.

I do not recall asking you to speak on behalf of everyone else.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-05-04 05:31pm

lazerus wrote:No, I have the answer as to why YOU don't.

I do not recall asking you to speak on behalf of everyone else.

Oh no, someone dared say something based on logic that you don't like.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2004-05-04 07:54pm

I'm recently becoming somewhat happy with Tensided, after about 6 years or so. It still doesn't have very much content in terms of gameworld, magic system, etc. That's OK for me since I tend to run campaigns in settings from other gameworlds, but now that I'm trying to get a real good version of the Big Book (like a Player's Handbook), I need to include that kind of stuff.

Unfortunately, it's not the kind of thing you can involve more than one person on since opinions will clash and bickering will start within minutes of the project's initiation.

My recommendation: Avoid at all costs unless you're like me, who is never satisfied, or even close to satisfied with anyone else's system, no matter how good it is.

Captain tycho · Post by **Captain tycho** » 2004-05-04 07:54pm

SirNitram wrote:
lazerus wrote:No, I have the answer as to why YOU don't.

I do not recall asking you to speak on behalf of everyone else.
Oh no, someone dared say something based on logic that you don't like.

You know nitram, someone would bother with such a thing, because, oh, it's fun and could possibly be a hobby. Just because you don't see the reason you would be doing doesn't mean you can simply start pissing on it. Get your ass uncorked, Jesus.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-05-04 08:35pm

Lazerus: if you want to compare notes then I'm all for it.

SirNitram: Um, it's a sign of laziness to create your own RPG than it is to just use someone else's? Am I reading you right here?

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2004-05-04 08:39pm

Actually, creating your own RPG system *isn't* that work-intensive if you don't just carry on the current trend of being rules-heavy, extremely specific, and balanced. Basically the only thing my games roll for is skill tests, melee and gunplay; and the rules for that I developed myself, except for stealing Milleniums End's gunplay hit location/accuracy system, because it's so good. So long as you don't want to waste time creating classes, and skill trees, and other rubbish, its not that hard; and its actually fascinating to see how tiny decisions you made right at the start affect the outcome in pretty dramatic ways.

Course, I only play modern-day games, so I don't need an equipment list either. But then, D&D says a sword weighs 10 pounds, meh.

lazerus · Post by **lazerus** » 2004-05-04 08:51pm

Stofsk wrote:Lazerus: if you want to compare notes then I'm all for it.

Great, in the thread or over PM?

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-05-04 08:54pm

lazerus wrote:
Stofsk wrote:Lazerus: if you want to compare notes then I'm all for it.
Great, in the thread or over PM?

Actually I was hoping for something like AIM, because if we go by PM I have to clean out my Inbox because it's threatening to overflow and bury me. AIM is just easier if you have it.

But then I don't mind going by PMs.

Or the thread. It doesn't really matter to me.

lazerus · Post by **lazerus** » 2004-05-04 08:55pm

Stofsk wrote:
lazerus wrote:
Stofsk wrote:Lazerus: if you want to compare notes then I'm all for it.
Great, in the thread or over PM?
Actually I was hoping for something like AIM, because if we go by PM I have to clean out my Inbox because it's threatening to overflow and bury me. AIM is just easier if you have it.

But then I don't mind going by PMs.

Or the thread. It doesn't really matter to me.

AIM works fine.

I'm "Sorcerer Jax"

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-05-04 08:59pm

Stofsk wrote:Lazerus: if you want to compare notes then I'm all for it.

SirNitram: Um, it's a sign of laziness to create your own RPG than it is to just use someone else's? Am I reading you right here?

No. I don't really see how you could get that from what I said, or at least what I meant to say. What I am trying to get across is it's a giant investment of effort when one can generally find what you want if you look around. To use massive amounts of effort on something you could do easier is normally the opposite of laziness, so I'm not sure how you got that from what I was writing. Oh well.

lazerus · Post by **lazerus** » 2004-05-04 09:02pm

Stofsk wrote:
lazerus wrote:
Stofsk wrote:Lazerus: if you want to compare notes then I'm all for it.
Great, in the thread or over PM?
Actually I was hoping for something like AIM, because if we go by PM I have to clean out my Inbox because it's threatening to overflow and bury me. AIM is just easier if you have it.

But then I don't mind going by PMs.

Or the thread. It doesn't really matter to me.

or

282558061

if you have ICQ

lazerus · Post by **lazerus** » 2004-05-04 09:41pm

We now place a vote before ye, the reader. Is the following origional skill system too complicated to ever be used?

D100 based. You start off with a "base" level, determined by ranks and stats. For example, you have 34 ranks in a skill, and a +7% modifier from stats. That gives a net 41% chance to succecd. You would then apply modifier, like a -10% because the task is hard. For a total of 31%. You would then roll a d100, lower then a 31 succecds.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-05-04 09:46pm

I can promise you that someone, somewhere, has used a skill system with that basic concept before.

In any case, I tend not to like linear probability systems, but I fear that aside from the Grand Order of Silhouette, none agree with me on that point.

Probability curve systems tend to be a bit more fun, that way you don't have to do a bunch of special case rules for stuff, but that's just me.

lazerus · Post by **lazerus** » 2004-05-04 09:47pm

Hotfoot wrote:I can promise you that someone, somewhere, has used a skill system with that basic concept before.

In any case, I tend not to like linear probability systems, but I fear that aside from the Grand Order of Silhouette, none agree with me on that point.

Probability curve systems tend to be a bit more fun, that way you don't have to do a bunch of special case rules for stuff, but that's just me.

1) Not in a pen and paper RPG they havn't, I checked.

We are planning to curve it with a point of dimishing returns.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-05-04 09:54pm

I feel I've just been volunteered for something...

I'm willing to give this system a playtest, but my knowledge or RPG systems (or lack thereof) is to my detriment. I'm having a hard time understanding the system, but that's 'cause I'm a dumbarse.

But if you need a playtester I'm there.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-05-04 09:55pm

lazerus wrote:1) Not in a pen and paper RPG they havn't, I checked.

So certain are you? Many PnP RPGs there have been, many there are yet to be, hm? Alone in this journey you are not...heh-heh-heh

We are planning to curve it with a point of dimishing returns.

Not quite what I meant. With 1 die, you have a linear probability scale. Can't change that, and thus you are stuck with all the baggage that comes with it.

Damaramu · Post by **Damaramu** » 2004-05-04 11:16pm

PALLADIUM SUCKAAAS!!!! ALL UP IN YO ASS!

J/K, of course. I've always wanted to create my own RPG system.....but it seemed to be a lot of work, so it never happened.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2004-05-05 12:15am

d100 system, umm... yikes! If that's what you really want, then by all means, but let me try to talk you out of it first.

The problems with a d100 system are numerous, of great magnitude, and unsolvable without cranking up the complexity so high you end up with a computer simulation model rather than a PnP system. Let me list a few:

1. Unequal bonuse: A skill that gives a bonus of, say, 10% will not have much effect if it raises chance to hit from 50 to 60%, but that same bonus will literally double the chances to hit if it raises it from 80 to 90%.

2. Choice between two evils: With a linear probability system, you basically have one of two choices. Either the characters hit the ceiling where their skills almost always work quickly, or the progression is slow enough or they start out in the low percentages such that they're missing all the time and are pathetic.

3. Difficult to change: Balancing such a system is like walking a tightrope, and once you've found something that works, incorporating new rules or skills, or making changes to existing ones becomes very difficult.

I could go on, but I hope you get the point.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2004-05-05 02:57am

Arthur makes excellent points; as I mentioned previously, seemingly minor decisions made early on in development will often determine much of the character of your system. The range of values and the methods to 'roll' them are basically the most important part of the system; the only way to do percentile without it being a case of 'useless early characters, godlike late characters' is to implement a system of modifiers. Almost all systems have some aspect of the sliding scale problem, that is, that 1 point on different parts of the scale do not have identical values. This causes all manner of undesired effects, as mentioned by Art_Tux.

I avoided the problem by changing from a player-centric roll to a conflict-centric roll, using only the difference between the two values instead of the players value; but I've got a very 'hands-off' GM style, so rolls are seldom called for. However, remember what happened to plaeyrs in Palladium systems; when someone's got a dodge of 80%, the whole combat system is useless.

Symmetry · Post by **Symmetry** » 2004-05-05 03:11am

I'm sort of working on one myself, but I'm trying to cut down on the work by borrowing as much as I can from GURPS and Shadowrun (though the fundamental dice rolling mechanic comes from WEG's Star Wars RPG).

Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:My recommendation: Avoid at all costs unless you're like me, who is never satisfied, or even close to satisfied with anyone else's system, no matter how good it is.

Here here. Arthur, I have to say that the system you've come up with is real nice (though Not What I'm Looking For).

Hotfoot wrote:In any case, I tend not to like linear probability systems, but I fear that aside from the Grand Order of Silhouette, none agree with me on that point.

I agree! Thats something I've always disliked about D20 (even if its far far better than 2nd ed). GURPS

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2004-05-05 04:15am

Symmetry wrote:I'm sort of working on one myself, but I'm trying to cut down on the work by borrowing as much as I can from GURPS and Shadowrun (though the fundamental dice rolling mechanic comes from WEG's Star Wars RPG).

WEG is a good base, although I don't like the d6 as a primary die. Not enough gradients of difference. The difference between +1 and +2 bonus when you've only got 1-6 is huge, and there's nothing in between them.

Symmetry wrote:Here here. Arthur, I have to say that the system you've come up with is real nice (though Not What I'm Looking For).

Still might not be what you're looking for, but right now it's very rough around certain edges which will be smoothed out soon. Anyway, don't want to hijack this thread and turn it into a discussion of Tensided, but I've considered or tried percentage systems, d6 systems, etc. and discarded them. You might not agree with my reasons, but I hope I'm helping by giving them.