Space Marines Versus Stormtroopers.
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His Divine Shadow
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As I said, there are 9000 stormies and 30.000 other soldiers, he can't get away with that all the time, he might do it once before the stormies think, "oh fuck, fall back", and ofcourse they'll leave a bunch of thermal detonators there so when he busts out of the wall and the detotnators ecplode, all thats left is a spherical cutout of the bulkhead 5 meters in diameter, almost as if a warp grenade had exploded there.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who did not.
Don't call the mass numbers argument on Termies and boarding actions... Terminator's are frequently called upon to board Space Hulks... (Imagine a Ship Lost in the Warp, thrown out into Real Space, along with another ship, the crew knowing it won't be long until they are pulled back in, and in need of new resources/Living Space Yet knowing they won't have time to fully search the vessel, instead they merge the two ships into one, docking them and then making the connections permanment. Now imagine this happens for a very long time... voila one Spacehulk.) That the ship might have Human occupants, or at least what used to be human Occupants onboard it would be a good case scenerio. (The Best of course would be that it is empty, apart from that is lots of lovely lost tech)
You don't want to even imagine what the worst case scenerio is, but it involves Genestealers in Humdreds of Thousands, or Chaos Cultists in a similar amount.... Yes Spacehulks can be THAT Big. Imagine if you wielded 20 Stardestroyer's Together or even a few Super Stardestroyer's and you get the idea of the size.... This is almost always the preseve of the First Company of a Space Marine Chapter, the nearest Chapter will be diverted to the Spacehulk. In the Game Space Hulk, they where considered so dangerous that should the Marines fail the vessel was to obliterated, thats where the 600 Gigaton Missiles Quote comes from, they had a fleet on standby prepared to fire should the Blood Angels fail.
There is a reason the armour is called Tactical Dreadnought Armour. (And even through I hate using the game mechanics, in the previous version of 40K standard armour save for Termie Armour was 2+ On two Dice combined, thats right the weapon had to have at least a -1 on armour saves to penertrate and even then it was hard.... (Unless the person rolled two 1's they passed.) Rember that the game is Game Balanced and you can sort of guess the strength of the armour in fluff. (Oh yes forget to mention normally armour saves are on ONE dice.)
You don't want to even imagine what the worst case scenerio is, but it involves Genestealers in Humdreds of Thousands, or Chaos Cultists in a similar amount.... Yes Spacehulks can be THAT Big. Imagine if you wielded 20 Stardestroyer's Together or even a few Super Stardestroyer's and you get the idea of the size.... This is almost always the preseve of the First Company of a Space Marine Chapter, the nearest Chapter will be diverted to the Spacehulk. In the Game Space Hulk, they where considered so dangerous that should the Marines fail the vessel was to obliterated, thats where the 600 Gigaton Missiles Quote comes from, they had a fleet on standby prepared to fire should the Blood Angels fail.
There is a reason the armour is called Tactical Dreadnought Armour. (And even through I hate using the game mechanics, in the previous version of 40K standard armour save for Termie Armour was 2+ On two Dice combined, thats right the weapon had to have at least a -1 on armour saves to penertrate and even then it was hard.... (Unless the person rolled two 1's they passed.) Rember that the game is Game Balanced and you can sort of guess the strength of the armour in fluff. (Oh yes forget to mention normally armour saves are on ONE dice.)
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white_rabbit
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Meet the Heavy flamer....soverign cure for choke points..His Divine Shadow wrote:There are 9000 stormies and 30.000 other soldiers and officers on an ISD, if they can lay down a choke point with heavy repeating blasters they could take down a terminator I think.
and before you mention that Stormy armour is heat resistant etc, Heavy flamers basic dmage in Inquisitor will roast through Carapace armour...then you add the extra damage..
Terminators in boarding actions have specific goal..
It will normally be...work their way to a vital piece of equipment and blow it up..
They can either leave timed devices, or do what REAL soldiers do and blow it up with their guns, and teleport out the instant before bad things happen.
anyone got any comments on the examples Ive posted of stuff ?
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SylasGaunt
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Out of curiosity where are you getting that number because I remember something about a TIE ripping it's own wings off trying to turn.Mr Bean wrote:Tornado Speeder
They can pull 17 gee turns..
Wow
Ok so TIEs can turn oooh by a factor of 20x tighter than that even in an Atmosphere and are faster too with weapons that can burn it from the Sky in a shot or two
Ok So in Air-Combat at least the Marines are outclassed
If you mean Daemons there's daemonic invulnerability, and superhuman abilities.So how do the Chaos Spawn stand up to them in combat? All they seem to have is archaic weaponry, magical and all, but kind of useless against artillery and the like.
So what threat do they truly pose? Because of sheer numbers? Corruptive effect? Psionic powers? Or do they buy alien weaponry and employ it or what?
IIRC a daemon that appeared in one of the Ghost's novels needed concentrated fire from an entire squad to bring it down.
and another one needed an Orbital Bombardment all of it's own.... (Well okay one shot... with the exact coordinates radioed in, and I mean the exact, down to the millimetre, if it was off by too much the Guard squad calling it down would have been toast. This of course was a greater Deamon... Whose very existence on the planet was making anymore landings by the guard impossible, and making it near to impossible therefore for the guard to win, they where lucky that a Ghost's unit came upon it's possition. (How are greater Deamons normally taken out, well it involves a Psyker, or even better a unit of Grey Knights. (think Psyker's in a unit of five, all Marines+ (They make normal marines look like amateur's!) and wearing specially modified Terminator armour. If your a Deamon you fear the Grey Knight's) Or for Eldar a Farseer would do the Job, or of course their own 'Deamon' well Avatar of the War God...
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white_rabbit
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Greater Daemons/Daemon Princes etc are incredibly hard.
example..
Cherubael, a Daemon prince, blew away the entire torso, arm, head of a Battle-Titan. he did in seconds, literally, just flew at it and disintigrated it away.
Botchulaz, a Great Unclean One, infected an entire world with an uncurable plague, he then controlled every person kiled by the plague as undead.
He could not be killed by normal weapons, they had to seal him inside an Eldar built psychic prison.
Angron, Lord of the World Eaters, was only banished by a cadre of over 100 elite Grey Knights , i.e. the Elite of the GKs chapter, and Inquisitors of the Ordo Malleus.
only around 3 managed to survive..
A powerful Daemon could swat entire fleets from space..
(Pawns of Chaos)
The Daemon Garashon or something destroyed a fleet of Imperium starships on his own...
example..
Cherubael, a Daemon prince, blew away the entire torso, arm, head of a Battle-Titan. he did in seconds, literally, just flew at it and disintigrated it away.
Botchulaz, a Great Unclean One, infected an entire world with an uncurable plague, he then controlled every person kiled by the plague as undead.
He could not be killed by normal weapons, they had to seal him inside an Eldar built psychic prison.
Angron, Lord of the World Eaters, was only banished by a cadre of over 100 elite Grey Knights , i.e. the Elite of the GKs chapter, and Inquisitors of the Ordo Malleus.
only around 3 managed to survive..
A powerful Daemon could swat entire fleets from space..
(Pawns of Chaos)
The Daemon Garashon or something destroyed a fleet of Imperium starships on his own...
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white_rabbit
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Typhonis 1
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Man if they can rip Stormies a new one Imagine a terminator unit pordered to capture a Federation ship..how mnany squads would be needed?
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On a side note...
Despite the warm feeling of satisfaction I would get from watching a squad of Space Marines trashing their way through a GCS I think there is another, perhaps even more satisfying, option...
Release an Eversor assassin onto a GCS, or even a ISD...either way the crew are likely to be systematically slaughtered...
These guys are the cream of the crop...their so pumped up on bio-enhancements & combat drugs that their constantly at danger of exploding...
Heres are few examples of their shear power...
"Using specialised knowledge of genetics and human biology, every single Eversor Assassin is engineered to be a super-human killing machine, their bodies driven beyond normal human capabilities by genetic alterations and advanced bionics. In addition, the Eversor temple has developed a range of combat drugs to alter the Assassin's state of mind to that of a psychopath, and push his bio-enhanced body to its absolute limit.
Each Eversor Assassin develops hyper-immuno systems to counter the toxins in the many drugs used by the temple. However, a large number of the drugs are also highly addictive. Without them the Assassin will almost certainly die, with them the Assassin is turned into an unstoppable killing machine. The inevitable result of this is that the Assassin becomes addicted to the killing itself! The only way they can be kept under control is to keep the Eversor Assassins in cryo-suspension until they are required for a mission. Each Eversor Assassin is stored in a cryo-crypt on board one of the many secret spaceships that the Eversor temple have scattered across the Imperium. These ships maintain a constant state of alert, waiting only for orders from the High Lords of Terra to unleash their deadly cargoes.
When an Eversor is selected for a mission he is transferred from the cryo-crypt to a special drop pod, where neuro links feed the details of the mission to him while he remains in cryosuspension. The pod is launched at the target planet, as remote links with the space-ship reanimate the Assassin and ready his finely-tuned body with all he needs to complete the mission. When the pod impacts, the Assassin will be fully awake and ready to begin his grim task. He will be totally unaware of the time spent in cryo-suspension - he might have spent years or even centuries in a frozen state, but to the assassin the time gap between the end of the last mission and the start of the next will be mere moments. He will be psyched up and ready to satiate his desire to slaughter the enemies of the Imperium. Cutting a swathe of destruction through the heart of the enemy, the Eversor's assault is so swift and ruthless that his foes are rarely aware that they are under attack until the doors of their sanctuary are torn off their hinges - by which time it's far too late!"
"Somewhere on the ship a warning light winked on and off, and a member of crew set off with the thankless task of waking Captain Ordair to inform him that another unexplained warp disturbance had just taken place. It didn't matter now, they were all doomed - a chill had crept into the very core of the ship, as death stalked the Fist of Jade
The last few hours, or was it days, Yeurl couldn't be sure, had been harrowing. All around the ship, the crew lay dead, their guts torn from their bodies, limbs mangled and mutilated. Screams of terror and the sounds of indiscriminate violence echoed down every passageway, as an unknown assailant systematically slaughtered every living soul aboad."
"He looked up to see the Eversor assassin stalk into the lab, his movements were slow and deliberate; lithe and deadly. The skull mask kept its cold, lifeless eyes on the Inquisitor at all times. The assassin's synskin was wet and shiny and blood dripped from it onto the floor. Bits of gore and flesh hung from annoured plates, and Yeurl felt sure a piece of the Captain lapels were entangled in the hilt of the assasins power sword.
A noise like a pump being operated and the sound of liquid gushing into phials filled the room - the Neuro-gauntlet. The Inquisitor glanced at the vicious instrument of pain and death that sheathed the assassin's left hand, the Eversor responded by opening and closing the needle prongs of the gauntlet, a series of menacing clicks penetrated the absolute silence as the needle fine hypodermic scythes touched.
Surely this cannot be, Yeurl thought, one such as myself cannot be a target. Why tell me all about the great disaster, the ancient ones and the battles of the old enemy for it to come to this. Where was Hrakon, surely this was a mistake, I am an Inquisitor of the Ordo Xenos!
"I am Ordo Xenos, look!" he shouted agent of death, touching his hand to the electoo on his forehead but nothing happened. The electoo didn't glow as it did when Hrakon was there, protestations were futile, Yeurl didn't even know if the Eversor could hear his cries. A sharp hiss issued from the Eversor, and a green vapour escaped from a vent in his synskin, and the assassin struck, moving almost too quickly for human eye to perceive.
It was only as the Eversor pounced that the truth dawned on Yeurl. As he futiley raised his bolter and heard, a dull click as the round jammed in the chamber, even as Neuro-gauntlet closed around his throth deadly toxins pumping into his blood stream, Yeurl realised that he had failed. They had been testing him checking if he was suitable and he had failed utterly. As his life slipped away his solitary screams could be heard echoing down the passageways of the now empty ship."
Im sorry if thats a lot to read, but I thought Id give a bit of info to support my claim...
Release an Eversor assassin onto a GCS, or even a ISD...either way the crew are likely to be systematically slaughtered...
These guys are the cream of the crop...their so pumped up on bio-enhancements & combat drugs that their constantly at danger of exploding...
Heres are few examples of their shear power...
"Using specialised knowledge of genetics and human biology, every single Eversor Assassin is engineered to be a super-human killing machine, their bodies driven beyond normal human capabilities by genetic alterations and advanced bionics. In addition, the Eversor temple has developed a range of combat drugs to alter the Assassin's state of mind to that of a psychopath, and push his bio-enhanced body to its absolute limit.
Each Eversor Assassin develops hyper-immuno systems to counter the toxins in the many drugs used by the temple. However, a large number of the drugs are also highly addictive. Without them the Assassin will almost certainly die, with them the Assassin is turned into an unstoppable killing machine. The inevitable result of this is that the Assassin becomes addicted to the killing itself! The only way they can be kept under control is to keep the Eversor Assassins in cryo-suspension until they are required for a mission. Each Eversor Assassin is stored in a cryo-crypt on board one of the many secret spaceships that the Eversor temple have scattered across the Imperium. These ships maintain a constant state of alert, waiting only for orders from the High Lords of Terra to unleash their deadly cargoes.
When an Eversor is selected for a mission he is transferred from the cryo-crypt to a special drop pod, where neuro links feed the details of the mission to him while he remains in cryosuspension. The pod is launched at the target planet, as remote links with the space-ship reanimate the Assassin and ready his finely-tuned body with all he needs to complete the mission. When the pod impacts, the Assassin will be fully awake and ready to begin his grim task. He will be totally unaware of the time spent in cryo-suspension - he might have spent years or even centuries in a frozen state, but to the assassin the time gap between the end of the last mission and the start of the next will be mere moments. He will be psyched up and ready to satiate his desire to slaughter the enemies of the Imperium. Cutting a swathe of destruction through the heart of the enemy, the Eversor's assault is so swift and ruthless that his foes are rarely aware that they are under attack until the doors of their sanctuary are torn off their hinges - by which time it's far too late!"
"Somewhere on the ship a warning light winked on and off, and a member of crew set off with the thankless task of waking Captain Ordair to inform him that another unexplained warp disturbance had just taken place. It didn't matter now, they were all doomed - a chill had crept into the very core of the ship, as death stalked the Fist of Jade
The last few hours, or was it days, Yeurl couldn't be sure, had been harrowing. All around the ship, the crew lay dead, their guts torn from their bodies, limbs mangled and mutilated. Screams of terror and the sounds of indiscriminate violence echoed down every passageway, as an unknown assailant systematically slaughtered every living soul aboad."
"He looked up to see the Eversor assassin stalk into the lab, his movements were slow and deliberate; lithe and deadly. The skull mask kept its cold, lifeless eyes on the Inquisitor at all times. The assassin's synskin was wet and shiny and blood dripped from it onto the floor. Bits of gore and flesh hung from annoured plates, and Yeurl felt sure a piece of the Captain lapels were entangled in the hilt of the assasins power sword.
A noise like a pump being operated and the sound of liquid gushing into phials filled the room - the Neuro-gauntlet. The Inquisitor glanced at the vicious instrument of pain and death that sheathed the assassin's left hand, the Eversor responded by opening and closing the needle prongs of the gauntlet, a series of menacing clicks penetrated the absolute silence as the needle fine hypodermic scythes touched.
Surely this cannot be, Yeurl thought, one such as myself cannot be a target. Why tell me all about the great disaster, the ancient ones and the battles of the old enemy for it to come to this. Where was Hrakon, surely this was a mistake, I am an Inquisitor of the Ordo Xenos!
"I am Ordo Xenos, look!" he shouted agent of death, touching his hand to the electoo on his forehead but nothing happened. The electoo didn't glow as it did when Hrakon was there, protestations were futile, Yeurl didn't even know if the Eversor could hear his cries. A sharp hiss issued from the Eversor, and a green vapour escaped from a vent in his synskin, and the assassin struck, moving almost too quickly for human eye to perceive.
It was only as the Eversor pounced that the truth dawned on Yeurl. As he futiley raised his bolter and heard, a dull click as the round jammed in the chamber, even as Neuro-gauntlet closed around his throth deadly toxins pumping into his blood stream, Yeurl realised that he had failed. They had been testing him checking if he was suitable and he had failed utterly. As his life slipped away his solitary screams could be heard echoing down the passageways of the now empty ship."
Im sorry if thats a lot to read, but I thought Id give a bit of info to support my claim...
Okay then, three grots and a few snotlings, how long do they take....white_rabbit wrote:You wouldnt need Terminators, your basic tac squad has all they need to capture a Feddy ship,Typhonis 1 wrote:Man if they can rip Stormies a new one Imagine a terminator unit pordered to capture a Federation ship..how mnany squads would be needed?
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white_rabbit
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Vendetta wrote:Okay then, three grots and a few snotlings, how long do they take....white_rabbit wrote:You wouldnt need Terminators, your basic tac squad has all they need to capture a Feddy ship,Typhonis 1 wrote:Man if they can rip Stormies a new one Imagine a terminator unit pordered to capture a Federation ship..how mnany squads would be needed?
Why would they want to capture a Feddy ship in such a way anyway..
A few shots of the Anti fighter array and the fed ship whirls out of control.
It was!! Shit man I just automatically assumed it was a Greater Deamon by the amount of Shit it was throwing out... didn't want to overestimate the situation, and thereby overpower the Deamons, I'll have to check now when I get back to my flat.Lost Soal wrote:No it wasn't, It was a Beast of Nurgle which is one of its bog standard lower demons.Skelron said.
"This of course was a Greater Demon"
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white_rabbit
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Lost Soal wrote:No it wasn't, It was a Beast of Nurgle which is one of its bog standard lower demons.Skelron said.
"This of course was a Greater Demon"
Theres no actual classification of the big booger that was causing the trouble.
I would think it was a Greater Daemon my self, remember the Daemons are not uniform espcially Nurgle Daemons, its possible it may have been a Daemon Prince who ascended to Greater Daemonhood.
Beasts of Nurgle simply dont have that sort of power.
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Typhonis 1
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The demon was described as being a slithering creature with tenticles which is what the beast of nurgle is described as, and looks like. It is also a psyker and would have had to power to do what is suggested. A Great Unclean One doesn't have tenticles, wouldn't have been driven back by las guns and is so massive it wouldn't have been able to hide in in the corridors that they were travelling in.
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white_rabbit
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Lost Soal wrote:The demon was described as being a slithering creature with tenticles which is what the beast of nurgle is described as, and looks like. It is also a psyker and would have had to power to do what is suggested. A Great Unclean One doesn't have tenticles, wouldn't have been driven back by las guns and is so massive it wouldn't have been able to hide in in the corridors that they were travelling in.
You are saying a Beast of Nurgle...which is what chaos champions have as pets...is capable of creating a planet wide psyker storm ?
Dont be an idiot.
Why shouldnt a GUO have tentacles ? whats with the need for it to conform suddenly ? this is CHAOS for gods sake! not the bloody Space marines. Daemons are infinately variable, every bloodthirster GUO, KOS and LOC is not going to be exactly the same.
Personally I dont think it was a GUO or a Beast, rather a Daemonic entity, just a big daemon, possibly nurgle, or even undivided with a touch of nurgle. it dosnt have to be a specifically named "type" of Daemon, those are jus for the game.
Beasts of nurgle are big slug things with wavy tentacles...they are followers...not massive Daemons.
The description didnt mention a slithering creature IIRC, just lots of tentacles..
Assuming it was beast of nurgle...because of tentacles is just insane.
Actually, in the literature all the greater demons are described in the same basic frame work.
Bloodthirster - Dog faced winged creature carrying an axe and whip.
LOC - Giant winged bird, lots of feathers.
KOS - Four arms, bulls head, seductive despite its hideous form.
GUO - Spitting image of Nurgle, bloated covered in puss and sores.
And the main point to my original post was that it wasn't a greater deamon.
Besides the storm doesn't necceserally have to cover the entire planet. Just the region they were trying to land
Bloodthirster - Dog faced winged creature carrying an axe and whip.
LOC - Giant winged bird, lots of feathers.
KOS - Four arms, bulls head, seductive despite its hideous form.
GUO - Spitting image of Nurgle, bloated covered in puss and sores.
And the main point to my original post was that it wasn't a greater deamon.
Besides the storm doesn't necceserally have to cover the entire planet. Just the region they were trying to land
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white_rabbit
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Lost Soal wrote:Actually, in the literature all the greater demons are described in the same basic frame work.
Bloodthirster - Dog faced winged creature carrying an axe and whip.
LOC - Giant winged bird, lots of feathers.
KOS - Four arms, bulls head, seductive despite its hideous form.
GUO - Spitting image of Nurgle, bloated covered in puss and sores.
And the main point to my original post was that it wasn't a greater deamon.
Besides the storm doesn't necceserally have to cover the entire planet. Just the region they were trying to land
They still aint carbon copys..
If the storm just covered the region they were trying to land in, it would be rather easy just land outside and walk in...its still waaaaaaaaay to much power for a simple beast of Nurgle.
The warp storm erupted during the landing, they didn't have time to react.
There is a chance it's not a Beast, although I doubt it, but I hope your not trying to claim that it is a Greater Deamon. Becauase as I said they are the exact likeness of the God Nurgle and it would not have even been aware of the las gun fire hitting it, much less be driven back by it.
By the way, there is a good reason why the type wasn't named in the book, in that the Gaurd shouldn't even be aware that deamons exist and after the encounter should have been exterminated by the inquistion for having contact with it.
There is a chance it's not a Beast, although I doubt it, but I hope your not trying to claim that it is a Greater Deamon. Becauase as I said they are the exact likeness of the God Nurgle and it would not have even been aware of the las gun fire hitting it, much less be driven back by it.
By the way, there is a good reason why the type wasn't named in the book, in that the Gaurd shouldn't even be aware that deamons exist and after the encounter should have been exterminated by the inquistion for having contact with it.
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white_rabbit
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Lost Soal wrote:The warp storm erupted during the landing, they didn't have time to react.
There is a chance it's not a Beast, although I doubt it, but I hope your not trying to claim that it is a Greater Deamon. Becauase as I said they are the exact likeness of the God Nurgle and it would not have even been aware of the las gun fire hitting it, much less be driven back by it.
By the way, there is a good reason why the type wasn't named in the book, in that the Gaurd shouldn't even be aware that deamons exist and after the encounter should have been exterminated by the inquistion for having contact with it.
Where exactly is your proof its a beast ?
Beyond "tentacles"
Hell, beast tentacles werent even that long, just a fringe! certainly not enough to justify the things those tentacles did..
Im not sayings its a Greater Daemon, but it would have to be vastly more powerful than a beast to create enough of a storm to do what it did.
Beasts arent that powerful, even taking into account the game balance aspect of it, they dont have the sort of potential you are giving them.
its far more likely it was some Daemonic entity, summoned or brought to the planet, and possibly affliated with Nurgle, a beast is low in the hierarchy,
The classifications given are not a complete listing of Daemons, thats impossible, why are you trying to cram it into such a class when it patently dosnt fit ?
By the way, there is a good reason why the type wasn't named in the book, in that the Gaurd shouldn't even be aware that deamons exist and after the encounter should have been exterminated by the inquistion for having contact with
Again, these things arent absolutes, the official line may well be such, but if you think about it, killing an entire elite regiment, in the middle of a frikkin major Crusade, while fitting to the style of 40k, wouldnt happen.
According to your theory, the Mordians, the Catachans, both elite regiments should no longer exist because their Homeworlds were invaded by Chaos!.
Hell, in the book the damn thing is screamed over the comm-link....remember ?
Daemon, Daemon, DAEMON!
Such a thing would probably be subject to the situation..
i.e. the Guard regiments etc arent cleansed, due to their value and the fact that they won, rather than being sent insane by a ll the gribbly chaos
However, in the case of the population of Armageddon, then the Administratum DID kill them all, because they could afford to.