Shuttle vs TIE part deux

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2004-05-11 01:32am

Metrion Cascade wrote:Another more direct picture of shuttle firepower - the episode where Voyager went back in time to Los Angeles in the late 90s. A Voyager shuttle chased down a semi truck it thought was carrying the timeship Aeon. One shot from the shuttle completely destroyed the truck (the tractor and trailer both, IIRC).

Large chunks, fragments, vaporised, what?

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2004-05-11 01:37am

Metrion Cascade wrote:
consequences wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote: I disagree with your logic here. Not defending the the author of this thread but using a Kazon shuttle shooting in through a window as an example of Fed shuttle firepower and durability is extremely silly.
The Kazon shuttles have been shown on-screen to be comparable with Voyager's shuttles. The Shuttle in question(and I'm being generous here, the ship in question may have been a heck of a lot bigger than a shuttle) was piloted by people with every reason to wish to kill their targets,as it would decapitate the commands of a number of Kazon factions, and thus had no reason to hold back on the firepower.
It may not be useful as more than an order of magnitude estimate, but any possibility of megaton(or even kiloton) range shuttle firepower is pretty much invalidated by the incident.
Although using Voyager as evidence in general is extremely silly, and I apologise for it.
The Trabe do not have a solid or stable industrial base. They would try to save energy if they could. And this isn't space battle. This was a surgical strike or assasination in a city. Collateral damage and PR are factors. They were on a planet that was probably friendly to the Trabe if it was willing to let the Trabe host the conference. If I'm French intelligence sending someone to assassinate a guy at a conference I've arranged in the US, I'm not going to have him nuke Chicago and piss the Americans off to the point that they'd retaliate against me. Especially if I'm in economic trouble and recently lost a huge part of my industrial base. Even if my guy's got a dozen briefcase nukes in his car, I'll tell him to "hold back" and use a rifle or hand grenade.

One funny thing - this same shuttle that barely damaged the building took two torpedoes from Voyager with no damage to the city or the shuttle. Guess they were only carrying...what? A milligram of antimatter?

Surgical strike means you take out the target. They've already lost PR unless the natives are thoroughly on their side, as they have violated their airspace, and initiated fire under what was supposed to be flag of truce. A half dozen modern frag grenades would have killed more of the Kazon than the attack did, and could have simply been chucked by the Trabe guy without the need to blatantly violate the planet's sovereignity. PR clearly wasnot the Trabe's main concern, and if they had the energy to resist Voyager's fire(however weak that is, they could have depopulated one floor of the building.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-05-11 01:40am

Metrion Cascade wrote:Another more direct picture of shuttle firepower - the episode where Voyager went back in time to Los Angeles in the late 90s. A Voyager shuttle chased down a semi truck it thought was carrying the timeship Aeon. One shot from the shuttle completely destroyed the truck (the tractor and trailer both, IIRC).

This ass-clown is using Darkstar's page, which means he insists on limiting Star Wars to Lucas-produced pure-canon.

In order to be fair, we must therefore insist on limiting Star Trek to Roddenberry-produced pure-canon as well, which means that DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise are all out. This rule should apply to any debate anywhere which is based on Darkstar's arguments.

Metrion Cascade · Post by **Metrion Cascade** » 2004-05-11 01:48am

consequences wrote:
Metrion Cascade wrote:Another more direct picture of shuttle firepower - the episode where Voyager went back in time to Los Angeles in the late 90s. A Voyager shuttle chased down a semi truck it thought was carrying the timeship Aeon. One shot from the shuttle completely destroyed the truck (the tractor and trailer both, IIRC).
Large chunks, fragments, vaporised, what?

The chassis was still present, but most of the trailer was vaped with some fragments. I'm not entirely sure about the tractor, but I think the cab was chunked.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2004-05-11 01:49am

I just sent this as a Pm to the author of this thread. I thought you'd all get a kick out of it

Using 'Darkstars's website as a reference is a BAD idea.

You see, he's an idiot, pure and simple. He deliberately over-looks stuff that makes himself look bad, he lies, and he's got the educational backing of a rock.

The best comparison would be Darkstar = a whinny 5 year old that just found out he didn't get the best toy for christmas.
He either cries and cries to his parents until they get him the better one, or he tries to break or make the other kids think his toy is better and there's all suck.

Metrion Cascade · Post by **Metrion Cascade** » 2004-05-11 01:50am

consequences wrote:
Metrion Cascade wrote:
consequences wrote: The Kazon shuttles have been shown on-screen to be comparable with Voyager's shuttles. The Shuttle in question(and I'm being generous here, the ship in question may have been a heck of a lot bigger than a shuttle) was piloted by people with every reason to wish to kill their targets,as it would decapitate the commands of a number of Kazon factions, and thus had no reason to hold back on the firepower.
It may not be useful as more than an order of magnitude estimate, but any possibility of megaton(or even kiloton) range shuttle firepower is pretty much invalidated by the incident.
Although using Voyager as evidence in general is extremely silly, and I apologise for it.
The Trabe do not have a solid or stable industrial base. They would try to save energy if they could. And this isn't space battle. This was a surgical strike or assasination in a city. Collateral damage and PR are factors. They were on a planet that was probably friendly to the Trabe if it was willing to let the Trabe host the conference. If I'm French intelligence sending someone to assassinate a guy at a conference I've arranged in the US, I'm not going to have him nuke Chicago and piss the Americans off to the point that they'd retaliate against me. Especially if I'm in economic trouble and recently lost a huge part of my industrial base. Even if my guy's got a dozen briefcase nukes in his car, I'll tell him to "hold back" and use a rifle or hand grenade.

One funny thing - this same shuttle that barely damaged the building took two torpedoes from Voyager with no damage to the city or the shuttle. Guess they were only carrying...what? A milligram of antimatter?
Surgical strike means you take out the target. They've already lost PR unless the natives are thoroughly on their side, as they have violated their airspace, and initiated fire under what was supposed to be flag of truce. A half dozen modern frag grenades would have killed more of the Kazon than the attack did, and could have simply been chucked by the Trabe guy without the need to blatantly violate the planet's sovereignity. PR clearly wasnot the Trabe's main concern, and if they had the energy to resist Voyager's fire(however weak that is, they could have depopulated one floor of the building.

This planet may not have the means to detect every incoming ship. Or they may not care - there may be too many ships, or perhaps the area is rather loosely governed. So that a little violence like this may be small potatoes, but multi-kiloton blasts taking out small towns aren't.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-05-11 08:19am

consequences wrote:
Metrion Cascade wrote:Another more direct picture of shuttle firepower - the episode where Voyager went back in time to Los Angeles in the late 90s. A Voyager shuttle chased down a semi truck it thought was carrying the timeship Aeon. One shot from the shuttle completely destroyed the truck (the tractor and trailer both, IIRC).
Large chunks, fragments, vaporised, what?

IIRC the chassis was turned into a burning smoldering wreck. It is similar to what a JDAM would do to a veichle.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2004-05-11 08:20am

You know...for a half a second I thought about actualy responding to this thread seriously...then I shruged.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2004-05-11 08:21am

evilcat4000 wrote:
consequences wrote:
Metrion Cascade wrote:Another more direct picture of shuttle firepower - the episode where Voyager went back in time to Los Angeles in the late 90s. A Voyager shuttle chased down a semi truck it thought was carrying the timeship Aeon. One shot from the shuttle completely destroyed the truck (the tractor and trailer both, IIRC).
Large chunks, fragments, vaporised, what?
IIRC the chassis was turned into a burning smoldering wreck. It is similar to what a JDAM would do to a veichle.

Preaty much the entire truck was NDFed.

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2004-05-11 10:28am

Darth Wong wrote:
Metrion Cascade wrote:Another more direct picture of shuttle firepower - the episode where Voyager went back in time to Los Angeles in the late 90s. A Voyager shuttle chased down a semi truck it thought was carrying the timeship Aeon. One shot from the shuttle completely destroyed the truck (the tractor and trailer both, IIRC).
This ass-clown is using Darkstar's page, which means he insists on limiting Star Wars to Lucas-produced pure-canon.

In order to be fair, we must therefore insist on limiting Star Trek to Roddenberry-produced pure-canon as well, which means that DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise are all out. This rule should apply to any debate anywhere which is based on Darkstar's arguments.

DarkStar influence?!

This should be moved into the HoS!

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-05-11 10:33am

Tribun wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Metrion Cascade wrote:Another more direct picture of shuttle firepower - the episode where Voyager went back in time to Los Angeles in the late 90s. A Voyager shuttle chased down a semi truck it thought was carrying the timeship Aeon. One shot from the shuttle completely destroyed the truck (the tractor and trailer both, IIRC).
This ass-clown is using Darkstar's page, which means he insists on limiting Star Wars to Lucas-produced pure-canon.

In order to be fair, we must therefore insist on limiting Star Trek to Roddenberry-produced pure-canon as well, which means that DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise are all out. This rule should apply to any debate anywhere which is based on Darkstar's arguments.
DarkStar influence?!

This should be moved into the HoS!

Why again?

If that was the blanket rule, we would have moved Mike's debate with Both Stewie and Andrew Joshua Talon to the HoS for the mere mention of the name.

People can reference the dork, but when they have a thread dedicated to him, it gets moved, so don't play mod thank you.

Avatar of Narendra III · Post by **Avatar of Narendra III** » 2004-05-12 01:26pm

Due to the minor uproar I have caused I am issuing a full retraction of all statements that have to do with Darkstars material (despite my view that it is an oasis of logic in a sea of crap).
Oh and I watched the episodes I thought had the shuttles bombardment by a capital ship and I was wrong.

Post by **Kuja** » 2004-05-12 01:30pm

Avatar of Narendra III wrote:Due to the minor uproar I have caused I am issuing a full retraction of all statements that have to do with Darkstars material (despite my view that it is an oasis of logic in a sea of crap).

Look kid, anybody who thinks that humans in SW are born with metal plates in their neck (like Darkstar) is NOT an oasis of logic.

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2004-05-12 01:37pm

Where the hell did DS say that?!

Post by **Kuja** » 2004-05-12 01:44pm

Ace Pace wrote:Where the hell did DS say that?!

It was in a medical technology thread. Someone mentioned that Vader had metal plates in his neck to help support his head after his accident and he came back with something to the tune of "you don't know that they weren't always there!"

Speaks for itself, doesn't it?

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2004-05-12 01:47pm

This makes me more fearfull of actully reading his site...

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2004-05-12 01:56pm

Ace Pace wrote:This makes me more fearfull of actully reading his site...

Not reading his site is also a way to prevent brain damage.
But who cares. Arroding to his latest news, he won't update the site anymore anyway.

Post by **Kuja** » 2004-05-12 02:05pm

http://bbs2.stardestroyer.net/Archive/v ... al&start=0

And your comments simply lead us right back to my suggestion that we don't know what the SW human's vertebrae might be shaped like. We have no reason to assume that they look just like ours

And there you have it, gents.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2004-05-12 02:06pm

Avatar of Narendra III wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:Split from here, because someone doesn't having the reading capacity to read the annoucements.

Alright, you got your topic.

Now prove your assertion of 100 MT torpedos.
100 MT is a conservative estimate and all the proof needed is
on http://www.st-v-sw.net. I know alot of people disagree with him
but I can't find any problem with them.

If you can't find a problem with it, you don't know much about trek, and the fact that Bobby uses specific examples over the rest of the evidence and will flat out lie doesn't help.

the 100 MT scaling is proven false because in other episodes (Ted C or Sean brought this up fighting Bobby at SB, I don';t remember the ep) we see Voyager fire its torps at a ship over a city, and if torps grew like Bobby claims, that scene wouldn't work. So if you remove the claims about torpedo expansion, and scale and calc, it comes out about 1 MT.

You also have the problem of rationalizing that yield with other observed yields of torpedos like from Pegesus, Q Who?, Nemesis, and the one where they can't dream whose titel escapes me. Then you have to deal with the shield values determined based off of the one with the Dyson spehere (30 MT, any 100 MT torp would go straight through that).

As for the issues with TIEs, there is the fact that we see shields in the movies, the asteroid scene in AOTC puts starfighter scale lasers at 1-2 KT (radiative heat transfer remember), his calc for range there is dependent on the "behind the scenes" information he decries when anyone else uses it and fails when you consider the Falcon scene in ANH with Vader's wingman.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2004-05-12 02:08pm

Avatar of Narendra III wrote:I invite you to see RSA'a refutation of that page but maybe we should get back to the main topic of this thread.

Yes, and I invite you to cruise over to www.spacebattles.com and do a search for the debates (read as "ass kickings he recieved") between him and Laird, Sean, Ted C, Wayne, and me.

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2004-05-12 02:10pm

Holy smorgasm, lucky I took a brake when DS was posting.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2004-05-12 02:11pm

Avatar of Narendra III wrote:Due to the minor uproar I have caused I am issuing a full retraction of all statements that have to do with Darkstars material (despite my view that it is an oasis of logic in a sea of crap).

Please defend this position and explain why his interpratations of things is correct over ours.

Joe Momma · Post by **Joe Momma** » 2004-05-13 02:41am

Ender wrote:You also have the problem of rationalizing that yield with other observed yields of torpedos like from Pegesus, Q Who?, Nemesis, and the one where they can't dream whose titel escapes me.

Night Terrors, in which the Enterprise needed to fuel a chemical explosion with hydrogen from their bussard collectors because their photon torpedos didn't have a sufficient yield.

-- Joe Momma