An opinion on Iraq and Prisoners

[Stuart Mackey]

This is from another forum I belong to. The author is a former New Zealand Army officer.

I am starting to wonder if the motivation for invasion of Iraq is not an American fundamentalism as virulent as that of Moslem fundamentalism. The American version is Christian fanaticism coupled with a version of democracy and human rights at odds with the Westminster version. The old "We had to destroy the village to save it" attitude of Vietnam, is now seen as the "We had to torture the truth out of them to bring democracy to Iraq". What seems to be emerging is that the primary motivation for the Iraq incursion was to turn that nation into a shining example of US style democracy and a bulwark against Moslem terrorism in the Middle East. If this is so, the arrogance behind this strategy is staggering and does not augur well for the future when US pre-emption can take the place of tolerance and peaceful engagement of those with whom we happen to disagree.



The revelations from the Baghdad prisons merely demonstrate a much deeper malaise in the US forces. There is a Master Race attitude from the top down. Those soldiers did not spontaneously decide to abuse their prisoners. It is obvious that the US behaviour seen is endemic to that particular unit and possibly others. It is open and deeply tolerated from the top down. It has obviously been going on for a long time because it was so casual and acceptable. There was no attempt to hide the behaviour and the participants were obviously enjoying themselves. They were proud enough of their actions to spread the images far and wide. They certainly did not expect condemnation - only notoriety - and the statements from some of the accused indicate that they are confused by the negative reaction they have received. In their eyes and in the eyes of their superiors they have done no wrong - they were doing only that which came naturally to them. And there is the problem for us in NZ. All our norms of civilised behaviour just went out the window. All the idealism with which we fought in the past, all the instructions on treatment of prisoners, respect for the dead - theirs and ours - treatment of women, care of refugees, medical priorities at CCS and Fd Ambulances just went west. There are no norms applied in any of these images, and yet I can still remember what happened to one Kiwi soldier who decided to souvenir a gold ring off the finger of a dead terrorist by chopping off the finger with his machete. The NZ Army's reaction to his disrespect of that enemy corpse was immediate. His feet didn't touch the ground, and he was sent home in disgrace and punished. If we retain no humanity in war, what the hell do you fight for?

This is the kind of thinking that is occuring in nation outside of the US.

[Stuart Mackey]

Bugger..can a mod please fix the title? damn typo demons at it again..

[Master of Ossus]

It is done.

[Aaron]

These points have been brought up by myself and others on this board since the scandal broke. None the less this officer is right, the problem is obviously extends right to the top of that MP Brigade. The attitude expressed by the current leaders of the US administration doesn't help either.

[Stuart Mackey]

It is done.

Thanks, man

[Sarevok]

Well said.

[TrailerParkJawa]

I don't think this captures the scope of the sentiment here. I do believe the current administration thought like this. They seemed bet on the Iraqi's embracing democracy.

But when it comes to American's on the street the reasons are varied. I've met people who believe Iraq was behind 9-11. They believe this vehemently even though Bush himself denied it.

Then there are Americans who simply believe anyone from the whole middle east is a savage and the way you treat savages it is to torture them.

[K. A. Pital]

What do these torturers think... yeah, I guess there are sadists and just grim bastards everywhere. They believe torture is OK. But it is also true that the attitude is not just from a few men.

The "master race" stuff is something that bothers me. I always thought America couldn't have that attitude. Show of force, show of strength - yeah, whatever. But not to the prisoners... I always thought America does not have a "race", it's a land of refugees, all of different nationalities... it is nationalism to consider people from another country/nation savages.

Something's rotten in the state... hope it won't lead to further troubles in the world.