Why don't we make our own RPG system?

[lazerus]

d100 system, umm... yikes! If that's what you really want, then by all means, but let me try to talk you out of it first.

The problems with a d100 system are numerous, of great magnitude, and unsolvable without cranking up the complexity so high you end up with a computer simulation model rather than a PnP system. Let me list a few:

1. Unequal bonuse: A skill that gives a bonus of, say, 10% will not have much effect if it raises chance to hit from 50 to 60%, but that same bonus will literally double the chances to hit if it raises it from 80 to 90%.

2. Choice between two evils: With a linear probability system, you basically have one of two choices. Either the characters hit the ceiling where their skills almost always work quickly, or the progression is slow enough or they start out in the low percentages such that they're missing all the time and are pathetic.

3. Difficult to change: Balancing such a system is like walking a tightrope, and once you've found something that works, incorporating new rules or skills, or making changes to existing ones becomes very difficult.

I could go on, but I hope you get the point.

1) But you can elimintate that by using multipliers instead of straight bonuses.

2) Uh.......I don't follow.

3) See #2.

[General Zod]

what i got from #2 was, basically, game balance is tricky when incorporating level progression because either the characters advance rapidly and their ability checks succeed frequently or they advance really slowly and their ability checks don't work so much. Game balance is very difficult to keep in a system that uses progressive advancement, such as most D20 systems.

#3 is just that making changes to the system to adapt for an unexpected situation means that it could throw everything else out of whack if it isn't carefully planned.

[lazerus]

what i got from #2 was, basically, game balance is tricky when incorporating level progression because either the characters advance rapidly and their ability checks succeed frequently or they advance really slowly and their ability checks don't work so much. Game balance is very difficult to keep in a system that uses progressive advancement, such as most D20 systems.

#3 is just that making changes to the system to adapt for an unexpected situation means that it could throw everything else out of whack if it isn't carefully planned.

Well of course, but that would be true in ANY system.

[General Zod]

what i got from #2 was, basically, game balance is tricky when incorporating level progression because either the characters advance rapidly and their ability checks succeed frequently or they advance really slowly and their ability checks don't work so much. Game balance is very difficult to keep in a system that uses progressive advancement, such as most D20 systems.

#3 is just that making changes to the system to adapt for an unexpected situation means that it could throw everything else out of whack if it isn't carefully planned.

Well of course, but that would be true in ANY system.

not all game systems rely upon levels to progress. The storyteller system, for example, is completely level and classless.

[SirNitram]

not all game systems rely upon levels to progress. The storyteller system, for example, is completely level and classless.

To speak up on level-less % systems, I've seen one or two in action. And here seem to be the extremes they fall into:

1) Everyone's skills start at 0%, and advance slowly. Mass disgruntlement; guy who plays warrior for months still missing target half the time.

2) Everyone starts at 0%, and advance quickly. Anyone who racks up bonus XP for roleplaying quickly finds they've got every skill but Underwater Basketweaving in the 90%'s.

3) Everyone starts at some seemingly arbitrary percent and advance slowly. Problems of 1, except that now it's less 'can't acheive anything' and more 'can't feel any sense of advancement'.

[General Zod]

that's where massive playtesting comes in. so you can find a nice happy balance of xp doling to keep people happy and their characters advancing at a steady rate while making sure that nobody gets too overpowered too quickly.

[SirNitram]

that's where massive playtesting comes in. so you can find a nice happy balance of xp doling to keep people happy and their characters advancing at a steady rate while making sure that nobody gets too overpowered too quickly.

The assumption that no one else whose tried this has playtested is a bit silly. The nature of doling out percentages means that you're going to have a very un-smooth progression of power(95%-96% is alot more of a jump than 5%-6%), and that it's a very thin line to walk, if it exists at all, for satisfaction.

[General Zod]

that's where massive playtesting comes in. so you can find a nice happy balance of xp doling to keep people happy and their characters advancing at a steady rate while making sure that nobody gets too overpowered too quickly.

The assumption that no one else whose tried this has playtested is a bit silly. The nature of doling out percentages means that you're going to have a very un-smooth progression of power(95%-96% is alot more of a jump than 5%-6%), and that it's a very thin line to walk, if it exists at all, for satisfaction.

true. that's why i gave the example of the storyteller system. as it doesn't use any form of percentage based progression.

[SirNitram]

that's where massive playtesting comes in. so you can find a nice happy balance of xp doling to keep people happy and their characters advancing at a steady rate while making sure that nobody gets too overpowered too quickly.

The assumption that no one else whose tried this has playtested is a bit silly. The nature of doling out percentages means that you're going to have a very un-smooth progression of power(95%-96% is alot more of a jump than 5%-6%), and that it's a very thin line to walk, if it exists at all, for satisfaction.

true. that's why i gave the example of the storyteller system. as it doesn't use any form of percentage based progression.

I'm just pointing out the innate problems with a % system. I agree with Storyteller being a good Levelless; I'm a big Aberrant fan, even if I never get to play.

[lazerus]

that's where massive playtesting comes in. so you can find a nice happy balance of xp doling to keep people happy and their characters advancing at a steady rate while making sure that nobody gets too overpowered too quickly.

The assumption that no one else whose tried this has playtested is a bit silly. The nature of doling out percentages means that you're going to have a very un-smooth progression of power(95%-96% is alot more of a jump than 5%-6%), and that it's a very thin line to walk, if it exists at all, for satisfaction.

Of course 95% to 96% is a larger leap them from 5 to 6, but jumping fromm 95 to 96 costs a lot more SP's.

[SirNitram]

that's where massive playtesting comes in. so you can find a nice happy balance of xp doling to keep people happy and their characters advancing at a steady rate while making sure that nobody gets too overpowered too quickly.

The assumption that no one else whose tried this has playtested is a bit silly. The nature of doling out percentages means that you're going to have a very un-smooth progression of power(95%-96% is alot more of a jump than 5%-6%), and that it's a very thin line to walk, if it exists at all, for satisfaction.

Of course 95% to 96% is a larger leap them from 5 to 6, but jumping fromm 95 to 96 costs a lot more SP's.

K.I.S.S., Lazerus. If you turn the progression up the percentages into an exponential graph, it's going to be a good bit more complicated.

[Vendetta]

One system you could look at is a single-target multiple-roll system.

(I'm not sure if this is what tensided is, I don't know it's rules)

Simple example, you have a target difficulty score, and you roll a number of dice determined by your skill level. Count the number that achieve the target, the more successes, the better you do at the task.

It's simple, because you roll all the dice at once, and can instantly eyeball the number of successes you've scored, and you can easily apportion large or small bonuses (eg. a character has a '+1' bonus that they can apply to any one dice from their roll, potentially tipping it over to a success, or a +1 overall to their rolls that hits all dice), and your progression is simple but makes a large difference, rolling 3 dice gives you a much greater chance of scoring a single success than rolling two.

Another potential is to have varying difficulties on that, for each success you score, the next dice has to score one higher (eg. for a difficulty of 4, on 3D6, a roll of 4,5,5 would mean two successes, but a 4,5,6 or better would mean 3).

[lazerus]

The assumption that no one else whose tried this has playtested is a bit silly. The nature of doling out percentages means that you're going to have a very un-smooth progression of power(95%-96% is alot more of a jump than 5%-6%), and that it's a very thin line to walk, if it exists at all, for satisfaction.

Of course 95% to 96% is a larger leap them from 5 to 6, but jumping fromm 95 to 96 costs a lot more SP's.

K.I.S.S., Lazerus. If you turn the progression up the percentages into an exponential graph, it's going to be a good bit more complicated.

Eh, why an expodential curve? You could approx it with a simple step up system.

[SirNitram]

One system you could look at is a single-target multiple-roll system.

(I'm not sure if this is what tensided is, I don't know it's rules)

Simple example, you have a target difficulty score, and you roll a number of dice determined by your skill level. Count the number that achieve the target, the more successes, the better you do at the task.

It's simple, because you roll all the dice at once, and can instantly eyeball the number of successes you've scored, and you can easily apportion large or small bonuses (eg. a character has a '+1' bonus that they can apply to any one dice from their roll, potentially tipping it over to a success, or a +1 overall to their rolls that hits all dice), and your progression is simple but makes a large difference, rolling 3 dice gives you a much greater chance of scoring a single success than rolling two.

Another potential is to have varying difficulties on that, for each success you score, the next dice has to score one higher (eg. for a difficulty of 4, on 3D6, a roll of 4,5,5 would mean two successes, but a 4,5,6 or better would mean 3).

Storyteller with D6 instead of D10?

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

One system you could look at is a single-target multiple-roll system.

(I'm not sure if this is what tensided is, I don't know it's rules)

Simple example, you have a target difficulty score, and you roll a number of dice determined by your skill level. Count the number that achieve the target, the more successes, the better you do at the task.

It's simple, because you roll all the dice at once, and can instantly eyeball the number of successes you've scored, and you can easily apportion large or small bonuses (eg. a character has a '+1' bonus that they can apply to any one dice from their roll, potentially tipping it over to a success, or a +1 overall to their rolls that hits all dice), and your progression is simple but makes a large difference, rolling 3 dice gives you a much greater chance of scoring a single success than rolling two.

Another potential is to have varying difficulties on that, for each success you score, the next dice has to score one higher (eg. for a difficulty of 4, on 3D6, a roll of 4,5,5 would mean two successes, but a 4,5,6 or better would mean 3).

Those are good setups, but I've never run into a compelling reason to switch. Implementing bonuses becomes much more cumbersome under a single-target-multiple-roll setup, and I didn't see any advantage over my current system of rolling 1d10 + bonuses compared to a difficulty.

Again, not to derail this thread, but a couple people have alluded to problems with the way d20's probability system works, which is similar to my own (I didn't base mine on d20, it just ended up similar). I guess I'm in the dark about the problems. What are they?

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

1) But you can elimintate that by using multipliers instead of straight bonuses.

What do you mean?

[Captain tycho]

Count me in.

Also, I have a good idea for a spellcasting system. (Kinda blend between a point buy system and the D&D spellcasting system.)
You 'buy' the ability to cast spells, in example, you would pay so and so points to be able to cast 5th (or whatever) level spells, but you would need the prerequisite levels. Then, you would buy daily spell slots, based on the level those slots would be for. As for learning spells, you could spend a certain amount of points for each spell, modified again by spell level.

[Captain tycho]

Ok, here's my ideas regarding magic so far:
You buy magic skill points within certain magic subschools, and each subschool has its own point cost per skill ranks you buy. Suppose you wanted to cast Gravity Burst. You would 'buy' the prerequisite skill levels required to cast it in the Gravity subschool, make a skill roll, and if it suceeds, you cast the spell. Very rough, I know, but its a start. Here is also a list of the various schools of magic I've thought of:


Magic Schools:

Elemental: The elemental school of magic is the easiest to learn, as it deals simply with the conjuring and control of the basic elements.
Elemental Subschools:
Fire
Air
Earth
Water

Manipulation: The manipulation school of magic deals with altering the flow of time, transmuting, fusing and fissioning matter, mind-control, commanding spirits, and actually tapping the force of life itself.

Manipulation subschools:
Time
Atomic
Mentalism
Spiritualism
Life-force

Energy: The energy school deals with the application of raw energy, or the draining of energy from a region.
Energy subschools:
Gravity
Magnetism
Heat
Cold

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

Hey not to be pushy, but I'd really like it if someone answered my question about what the problem is with a single linear roll probability system.

[Captain tycho]

Hey not to be pushy, but I'd really like it if someone answered my question about what the problem is with a single linear roll probability system.

I don't really know of any problems with such a system, even after playing years and years with it. It seems perfectly fine to me.

[Hotfoot]

Hey not to be pushy, but I'd really like it if someone answered my question about what the problem is with a single linear roll probability system.

Linear probability scales can't accurately model true probabilities. The "average" result is just as likely to happen as the abysmally low and the extremely high. There is no real standard distribution.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

Hey not to be pushy, but I'd really like it if someone answered my question about what the problem is with a single linear roll probability system.

Linear probability scales can't accurately model true probabilities. The "average" result is just as likely to happen as the abysmally low and the extremely high. There is no real standard distribution.

Ah, ok. That's the reason I switched from a d20 to a d10. Too much volatility with the d20. Personally I think using a d10 reduces that effect to acceptable amounts, and is a good trade off for the simplicity.

[lazerus]

daft Q, but isn't this a bit D&D meets GURPS?

It's more GURPS meets Storyteller meets D&D. Despite the fact all have decent systems for what's being discussed.

Cat: Kina, but that's just because none of the details have been filed in yet, i'll get more origonal as testing continues.

Nitram: Well, if we need a list of RPG's that can do that, we'll contact you. Until then STFU and stay out of our thread please.

[SirNitram]

daft Q, but isn't this a bit D&D meets GURPS?

It's more GURPS meets Storyteller meets D&D. Despite the fact all have decent systems for what's being discussed.

Cat: Kina, but that's just because none of the details have been filed in yet, i'll get more origonal as testing continues.

Nitram: Well, if we need a list of RPG's that can do that, we'll contact you. Until then STFU and stay out of our thread please.

Aren't you a pissy little bitch?

In any case, I'm here to contribute by pointing to Storyteller for some elements. Specifically, seperating Attributes and Skills from the point buy(Having a set number of levels you must have in attributes, and a set number you must have in skills) and having what they call 'bonus points' to add to those, or to buy other things. This prevents min-maxing and ensures no one exists who has one skill and nothing else.

[lazerus]

It's more GURPS meets Storyteller meets D&D. Despite the fact all have decent systems for what's being discussed.

Cat: Kina, but that's just because none of the details have been filed in yet, i'll get more origonal as testing continues.

Nitram: Well, if we need a list of RPG's that can do that, we'll contact you. Until then STFU and stay out of our thread please.

Aren't you a pissy little bitch?

In any case, I'm here to contribute by pointing to Storyteller for some elements. Specifically, seperating Attributes and Skills from the point buy(Having a set number of levels you must have in attributes, and a set number you must have in skills) and having what they call 'bonus points' to add to those, or to buy other things. This prevents min-maxing and ensures no one exists who has one skill and nothing else.

Good idea, but we have another way of fixing that. Were going to have "Skill Frameworks" that reflect your char background. Your required to take one, they don't really impair char flexiblity much, but they do stop mind/max'ing.