The EU constitution preamble

[PeZook]

I have just listened to radio news, and in there they had a blurb dedicated to the EU constitution mess (To those who don't know what it is all about: Some EU nations, most notably - Ireland and Poland want to "pay homage to the christian roots of European civilization" and include it in the preamble to the EU constitution).

I looks like a sort of compromise was reached, when it was agreed to iclude an additional article just to suit that crowd, but what do I hear today?

Some Polish bishop says the church will not settle for anything less than a homage in the preamble, because putting it anywhere else does not make it carry the same legal weight as a preamble statement. I thought this thing was supposed to be a "homage", not a goddamned piece of religious law.

Another argumet was that denying the fact that european culture stems from Christian roots is historical revisionism. (yes, the bishop whateverhisname said that). But the current project does not deny this "fact", it does the exact contrary! And hell, if they didn't include anything about that stuff in the draft, it would not mean they were trying to change history...by this logic, we should include homages to the Romans (with their "pagan" pantheon I'd imagine this wouldn't flow too well...), all the various barbarian tribes who took over afterwards, the Bisantium...

So...what do you think about the whole deal? I'm personally for a EU constitution without anything of this kind. After all, what right does the christian church have to claim to be responsible for the genesis of all European nations? For that matter, no single religion or phylosophical model has that right. I'd say let the people worship whatever the hell they want, but keep it out of secular law.

[TheDarkling]

I think the reference they have in the draft preamble is good enough although I really see no need for one at all.

[Sir Sirius]

I think that any mention of god anywhere in the constitution is pure bullshit. Let's put place a mention of allah, Vishnu, Shiva, Odin, Zeus, Väinämöinen, Zoroaster, Satan and Teutates along with every other god, religious icon or figure while were at it. Mustn't forget the pink unicorn, the great elf, the celestial pixie and the invisible dragon either.

[TheDarkling]

I think that any mention of god anywhere in the constitution is pure bullshit. Let's put place a mention of allah, Vishnu, Shiva, Odin, Zeus, Väinämöinen, Zoroaster, Satan and Teutates along with every other god, religious icon or figure while were at it. Mustn't forget the pink unicorn, the great elf, the celestial pixie and the invisible dragon either.

It doesn't mention God it says

Drawing inspiration from the cultural, religious and humanist inheritance of Europe, the values of
which, still present in its heritage, have embedded within the life of society the central role of the
human person and his or her inviolable and inalienable rights, and respect for law,

[Sir Sirius]

It doesn't mention God it says

Yes I know that, but Poland, among a few others, is lobbying for a direct mention of god in the constitution. Which is what I was talking about.

[Dahak]

I don't see why it should be mentioned there.
Most Europeans aren't staunch supporters of the church or believers...

[TheDarkling]

Yes I know that, but Poland, among a few others, is lobbying for a direct mention of god in the constitution. Which is what I was talking about.

They are trying for a mention of Christianity not God., essentially that wanted Christianity in the preamble in a similar situations I posted above, as a compromise they got "Religion".

A mention of Christianity isn't going to happen because it would exclude Muslims (which France has a lot of) and cause friction with Turkey (which may begin negotiations next year).

[Durandal]

The Catholic Church's history in Europe is marred with intolerance, violence and the deaths of untold millions. It's not something they should be proud of.

[PeZook]

The Catholic Church's history in Europe is marred with intolerance, violence and the deaths of untold millions. It's not something they should be proud of.

And on the other hand, Roman law is the basis of the European legal system, and you could use the same arguments the Church is using to support THEM being in the EU constitution as a basis of European culture. That double standard is what seriously pissed me off in the good bishop's declaration...

[GySgt. Hartman]

I say: screw the bishops. Christian right wingers from Germany were also lobbying for a christian god in the preamble, specifically to keep Turkey out of the Union. Asstards.

[Sir Sirius]

They are trying for a mention of Christianity not God.

Linky.

[PeZook]

"We should refer to God in the constitution. The reference is appropriate for Europe's Christian tradition and does not exclude those of other faiths or without faith," Rau said on Friday in a speech to Poland's parliament on the eve of EU enlargement.

Yeah, of course it doesn't. It just makes them something else rather than a part of European culture...god, why am I so pissed off over this?

[Plekhanov]

Well the I demand we have a reference to Zeus and the rest of the Greek Gods after all Hellenic culture has been enormously influential on the rest of Europe. If I have to pay homage to something it’ll be Socrates, Aristotle, Plato, Athenian Democracy and so forth not some fucked up religious doctrine that managed to dominate the continent for 1000 years and which isn’t even from Europe.

[Thinkmarble]

Preamble

Conscious of their responsibility before God and man,

Inspired by the determination to promote world peace as an equal partner in a united Europe, the German people, in the exercise of their constituent power, have adopted this Basic Law.
[Snip listing of federal states]

And that is why I do not care for a mentioning in the preamble.

[Bob McDob]

Some Polish bishop says the church will not settle for anything less than a homage in the preamble, because putting it anywhere else does not make it carry the same legal weight as a preamble statement. I thought this thing was supposed to be a "homage", not a goddamned piece of religious law.

Eh, screw them. If they don't like it, they can just leave. I doubt this is playing well to the rest of Europe, anyway.

[PeZook]

Eh, screw them. If they don't like it, they can just leave. I doubt this is playing well to the rest of Europe, anyway.

You'd be surprised how many politicians are actually advocating leaving the EU - this despite the fact most of the populace agreed on the accession in a binding popular vote.
And I like it in the EU, thank you very much. Business is already starting to pick up for my father's company

[Bob McDob]

[quote="PeZook"]You'd be surprised how many politicians are actually advocating leaving the EU - this despite the fact most of the populace agreed on the accession in a binding popular vote.
/quote]

Serious stuff or just complaining to pander to the religious right? I mean, I'd certainly expect at least some politicians to bitch and moan to appease the constituency.

[PeZook]

Serious stuff or just complaining to pander to the religious right? I mean, I'd certainly expect at least some politicians to bitch and moan to appease the constituency.

The religious right is one of the major parties in our parliament. You figure out the rest

[Stuart Mackey]

Serious stuff or just complaining to pander to the religious right? I mean, I'd certainly expect at least some politicians to bitch and moan to appease the constituency.

The religious right is one of the major parties in our parliament. You figure out the rest

Bring up the Catholic churches rather unsavory support of the Nazi's..maybe that will shut them up over this?

[TheDarkling]

Bring up the Catholic churches rather unsavory support of the Nazi's..maybe that will shut them up over this?

The Catholic church "supported" the Nazi's when they were seen as a bulwark against Communism (surprisingly the Catholic church had a problem with a totalitarian regime that wanted to wipe out religion) once they began to get nasty the church did criticise them and helped shuttle Jews around (the chief Rabbi in Rome converted just after the war so he must have been somewhat impressed with what he saw, he even took on the popes original name).

[Stuart Mackey]

Bring up the Catholic churches rather unsavory support of the Nazi's..maybe that will shut them up over this?

The Catholic church "supported" the Nazi's when they were seen as a bulwark against Communism (surprisingly the Catholic church had a problem with a totalitarian regime that wanted to wipe out religion) once they began to get nasty the church did criticise them and helped shuttle Jews around (the chief Rabbi in Rome converted just after the war so he must have been somewhat impressed with what he saw, he even took on the popes original name).

The Catholic Church was anti semitic centuries befor the advent of the Nazi's, and they gave it whole hearted support from the Pope down and supported Jews only halfheatedly after 1943 to the point that it was window dressing. Remember you are talking about a organisation that supported and organised anti-semitic veiws and beleifs for centuries.

[TheDarkling]

The Catholic Church was anti semitic centuries befor the advent of the Nazi's, and they gave it whole hearted support from the Pope down and supported Jews only halfheatedly after 1943 to the point that it was window dressing. Remember you are talking about a organisation that supported and organised anti-semitic veiws and beleifs for centuries.

Being anti-Semitic doesn't automatically translate into wanting to murder the Jewish people or of being in favour of such.
I would also point that one could be against the Nazi's and not have any particular care about the Jews, the church had other reasons to be anti-Nazi that had nothing to do with Jews (or even morality).

[Stuart Mackey]

The Catholic Church was anti semitic centuries befor the advent of the Nazi's, and they gave it whole hearted support from the Pope down and supported Jews only halfheatedly after 1943 to the point that it was window dressing. Remember you are talking about a organisation that supported and organised anti-semitic veiws and beleifs for centuries.

Being anti-Semitic doesn't automatically translate into wanting to murder the Jewish people or of being in favour of such.

Unfortunatly such an attitude played into Nazi hands and was supported by the church. The Church may not have actually done the deed, but they were the orgnisation that helped to legitimise the effort from day dot.

To quote Bishop Gfollner

"not only is it legitimate to combat and to end Judaism's pernicius influence".. "it is indeed the the stict duty of conscience of every informed Christian. One can only hope that the Aryans and Christians will increasingly come to recognise the dangers and troubles created by the Jewish spirit and to fight them more tenaciously."

I would also point that one could be against the Nazi's and not have any particular care about the Jews, the church had other reasons to be anti-Nazi that had nothing to do with Jews (or even morality).

The point is that the Church supported the entire action of the Nazis racial veiws as they related to the Jews and they never activly went against Nazism. The supported them completly.

Cardinal Hlond, head of the Polish Catholic Church

So long as Jews remain Jews, a Jewish Problem exists and will continue to exist...

Bishop Ivan Saric

The movement of liberation of the world from the Jews is a movement for the renewal of human dignity. Omnicient and omnipotant God stands behind this movement

There are even

[TheDarkling]

Unfortunatly such an attitude played into Nazi hands and was supported by the church. The Church may not have actually done the deed, but they were the orgnisation that helped to legitimise the effort from day dot.

And yet the Vatican was already complaining about the Nazi's by the mid 1930's and the future Pope was speaking out about the Nazi’ in the 20’s.

The point is that the Church supported the entire action of the Nazis racial veiws as they related to the Jews and they never activly went against Nazism. The supported them completly.

That is utter tripe.

Let us look at the first ever Papal Encyclical written in German and smuggled into Germany to be read from every pulpit in 1937.

8. Whoever exalts race, or the people, or the State, or a particular form of State, or the depositories of power, or any other fundamental value of the human community - however necessary and honorable be their function in worldly things - whoever raises these notions above their standard value and divinizes them to an idolatrous level, distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God; he is far from the true faith in God and from the concept of life which that faith upholds.

Specific mention of racism being a distortion and far from faith in God.

10. This God, this Sovereign Master, has issued commandments whose value is independent of time and space, country and race. As God's sun shines on every human face so His law knows neither privilege nor exception.

Again mention that Gods commandments and love is applied to all irrespective of race.

11. None but superficial minds could stumble into concepts of a national God, of a national religion; or attempt to lock within the frontiers of a single people, within the narrow limits of a single race, God, the Creator of the universe, King and Legislator of all nations before whose immensity they are "as a drop of a bucket" (Isaiah xI, 15).

God is not limited to a single race or a single nation.

The document goes onto slam the Nazi's for being pagans, treaty breakers and war mongers, this was in 1937 while the west was still treating Hitler like an equal.

17. The peak of the revelation as reached in the Gospel of Christ is final and permanent. It knows no retouches by human hand; it admits no substitutes or arbitrary alternatives such as certain leaders pretend to draw from the so-called myth of race and blood.

Who do you think the "certain leader" could be?

The document goes onto talk about reform must be brought about from a love of God and man. It warns that reform born of passion leads to destruction and evil.

The entire document reads as an indictment of the Nazi regime from start to finish, from its racist policies, to its paganism, to treaty breaking, to war mongering and to ill thought out reform.

It doesn't get much more damning than this and it was obvious meant for a German audience because for the first time ever it was in German not Latin.

Let us not forget that Vatican radio as early as 1935 was calling for prayer for the persecuted Jews in Germany (the radio was under the control of the future Pius XII, who also largely drafted the document above).

The Vatican was Anti-Nazi because they objected morally and they also didn't like the Nazi's stepping on their toes. No doubt there were some in the church who approved of the Nazi's and even more who kept quite to save their own hides but the Church as lead from the Vatican was not pro Nazi.

Leon Kubowitzky (head of the World Jewish congress which gave the Church a donation for their efforts during the war),

The Chief Rabbi of Israel in 1944 said "The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion, which form the very foundation of true civilization, are doing for our unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history, which is living proof of Divine Providence in this world."

In 1940 Albert Einstein said Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing the truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised, I now praise unreservedly."

So if these prominent Jews thought Pius XII did well by them (as do many other eyewitnesses) then maybe he did.

If Albert Einstein knew in 1940 that the Church was against Hitler then it was hardly a secret, in fact time magazine is littered with headlines talking about the Pope criticising the Nazi's.

JANUARY 23, 1940:
"Vatican Denounces Atrocities in Poland"
"Jews and Poles are being herded into separate ghettos,
heremetically sealed and pitifully inadequate for the economic subsistence
of the millions destined to live there."

JANUARY 24, 1940:
"Vatican Amplifies Atrocity Reports / Weight of Papacy Put Behind
Exposure of Nazi Excesses in Poland."
"Poland's Agony" (editorial on same day):
"Now the Vatican has spoken, with authority that cannot be
questioned, and has confirmed the worst intimations of terror which have
come out of the Polish darkness."

AUGUST 27, 1942:
In article, "Vichy Seizes Jews; Pope Pius Ignored," it is stated:
"These arrests are continuing despite appeals to Marshal Henri Philippe
Petain . . . by leading Catholic clergymen, with the support of the
Pope."


And so on.

The idea that the Catholic Church as an organisation was Pro Nazi is absurd, the Nazi's weren't Pro Catholic and were a threat to the Church, just from a basic survival standpoint the Church isn't going to be happy with them.

[Stuart Mackey]

Unfortunatly such an attitude played into Nazi hands and was supported by the church. The Church may not have actually done the deed, but they were the orgnisation that helped to legitimise the effort from day dot.

And yet the Vatican was already complaining about the Nazi's by the mid 1930's and the future Pope was speaking out about the Nazi’ in the 20’s.

Only to the extent that they infringed on Christianity.

The point is that the Church supported the entire action of the Nazis racial veiws as they related to the Jews and they never activly went against Nazism. The supported them completly.

That is utter tripe.

I should have been more clear, they never activly went against the Nazi's anti-semetic policies

Let us look at the first ever Papal Encyclical written in German and smuggled into Germany to be read from every pulpit in 1937.

You refer to "With burning concern"
An interesting document which also has the words

No one would think of preventing the youth of Germany from establishing a true ethinic community in a noble love of freedom and unshakablefidelity to the Fatherland

This is of course a nice cop out because to Germany at the time 'true ethinic community' Volksgemeinshaft' by definition would exclude Jews and according to the Nazi party "no Jew may be a member of the Volk"

That encyclical was about the error of putting race above religion, the Christian religion, it was not, however, an outright condemnation of anti-semitism or the Nazi anti-Jewish policies, and not once does it mention the Nazi party. The encyclical also presents the old Testement in a manner that plays to existing opinions in Germany
One also has to question Pious X11's sincerity when he supressed his predessesors draft encyclical 'Humani Generis Unitas', a document which would have, for the first time, start the Church to defending the Jews by explicatly condemning the Nazi's.
snip

The entire document reads as an indictment of the Nazi regime from start to finish, from its racist policies, to its paganism, to treaty breaking, to war mongering and to ill thought out reform.

It doesn't get much more damning than this and it was obvious meant for a German audience because for the first time ever it was in German not Latin.

Yet it never once mentions the Nazis, and is focused on one specific narrow area. It is selective and narrow in its veiw.Its stated objection revolves around "systematic antagonism raised between nationaleducation and religious duty". The document is vague enough to be a nice peice of CYA.

Let us not forget that Vatican radio as early as 1935 was calling for prayer for the persecuted Jews in Germany (the radio was under the control of the future Pius XII, who also largely drafted the document above).

The Vatican was Anti-Nazi because they objected morally and they also didn't like the Nazi's stepping on their toes. No doubt there were some in the church who approved of the Nazi's and even more who kept quite to save their own hides but the Church as lead from the Vatican was not pro Nazi.

Not every person in the official {as oppossed to lay people} Church was a Nazi Sympathiser but given the actions of the Nazis one wonders why the church or rather the Pope excommunicated all communists in 1949, regardless of if they were involved in the communist party or Stalins purges, but never excommunicated any Germans let alone Hitler. Why did the Church or the Pope not lift a finger to help the Jews of Italy being deported to the camps?

Leon Kubowitzky (head of the World Jewish congress which gave the Church a donation for their efforts during the war),

The Chief Rabbi of Israel in 1944 said "The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion, which form the very foundation of true civilization, are doing for our unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history, which is living proof of Divine Providence in this world."

So? the Pope practices CYA the same as anyone else but does not counter what he did not do befor or during the war.

In 1940 Albert Einstein said Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing the truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised, I now praise unreservedly."

I rather suspect that he did not have access to all information.

So if these prominent Jews thought Pius XII did well by them (as do many other eyewitnesses) then maybe he did.

aye, maybe he did, one must also look to what he did not do for a mesure of the man.

If Albert Einstein knew in 1940 that the Church was against Hitler then it was hardly a secret, in fact time magazine is littered with headlines talking about the Pope criticising the Nazi's.

JANUARY 23, 1940:
"Vatican Denounces Atrocities in Poland"
"Jews and Poles are being herded into separate ghettos,
heremetically sealed and pitifully inadequate for the economic subsistence
of the millions destined to live there."

JANUARY 24, 1940:
"Vatican Amplifies Atrocity Reports / Weight of Papacy Put Behind
Exposure of Nazi Excesses in Poland."
"Poland's Agony" (editorial on same day):
"Now the Vatican has spoken, with authority that cannot be
questioned, and has confirmed the worst intimations of terror which have
come out of the Polish darkness."

AUGUST 27, 1942:
In article, "Vichy Seizes Jews; Pope Pius Ignored," it is stated:
"These arrests are continuing despite appeals to Marshal Henri Philippe
Petain . . . by leading Catholic clergymen, with the support of the
Pope."


And so on.

So why was the head of the Polish church not excommunicated? despite his support of the Nazi's why were no Germans ever excommunicated despite the actions of their government and themselfves?
The Pope never raised a finger to stop the deportation of Jews from Italy,
etc etc..

The idea that the Catholic Church as an organisation was Pro Nazi is absurd,

All the anti-semetic evidence going back to medeval times notwithstanding eh?

all evidence the Nazi's weren't Pro Catholic and were a threat to the Church, just from a basic survival standpoint the Church isn't going to be happy with them.

Threat to the Church? rubbish! Whenever the national Catholic churches {or other denominations} spoke out they were never seriously targetted look at Scandinavia