US troops would never do that!!!!

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-05-12 01:49pm

Do you remember how countless reports of US troops killing civilians or brutalizing prisoners in Afghanistan or Guantanamo have been ignored for years now because most people just rolled their eyes at the source (usually victims or relatives of victims speaking to Arab press) and basically argued that the charges are simply absurd because US troops would never do that?

One question: do you still think that way, in light of pictures showing US troops torturing prisoners and laughing? How many of those accusations may have been true, but simply ignored by the West because of our arrogant confidence that our good boys just wouldn't ever do that?

I know someone will say "it was just a few miscreants", but who's to say that other such miscreants aren't sprinkled liberally throughout the forces? What's the chance that the entire US armed forces had just six miscreants who all happened to have the same moral defect and all happened to be on the night shift at the same prison, while the rest of the forces were as pure as driven snow?

Chardok · Post by **Chardok** » 2004-05-12 01:55pm

I was an eye-roller, once, Mike. I'll admit it. I have now done a full 180 on that issue. I will never again be so quick to dismiss claims of that nature. While I will still take I'll Jizz on ya's reports with a grain of salt, I will never just say "Psh" and go to CNN.com, etc. I am ashamed of my country for the first time in my life. as soon as I finish school, I fully plan on moving up to Canada. Hope you guys need nurses anywhere except quebec.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-05-12 02:00pm

If you think being in the forces automatically means respectable and dignified people 100% of the time, think again. My father alone can name total fucktards who were in the RAF with him and wouldn't be too far off the scum that did these recent misdemeanors. There are bad apples in every pile, just need to look.

Glocksman · Post by **Glocksman** » 2004-05-12 02:00pm

One question: do you still think that way, in light of pictures showing US troops torturing prisoners and laughing? How many of those accusations may have been true, but simply ignored by the West because of our arrogant confidence that our good boys just wouldn't ever do that?

It depends upon the source.

If it's a Robert Fisk (there's a reason his name is now a verb) or Indymedia type source, I frankly wouldn't believe it without independent confirmation. If it's Reuters or another major reputable news source, then yeah, I'd have to treat the accusation seriously.

That's pretty much how I've felt from the beginning though, so it's not much of a change.

Currald · Post by **Currald** » 2004-05-12 02:01pm

Of course very few of our soldiers are knights in shining armor. However, effective military discipline will keep them from indulging in their baser impulses in most situations. The military has very clear guidelines on what is acceptable and unacceptable behavior. Where the command structure works correctly, these rules are enforced. Where the command structure breaks down (as it did in that wretched prison), soldiers will fail to obey the rules, sometimes with appalling results.

Many people in the west have not simply ignored such accusations in the past. The administration has deliberately set up situations where the normal procedures for dealing with governmental injustice are inapplicable. The detainees at Guantanamo, for instance, are almost completely divorced from the normal court system. I believe that only the Supreme Court could change that situation. This is a cause for concern for many people here in the US.

I should also point out that even in the prisons here on the US mainland, all sorts of terrible things happen on a daily basis. Politicians have no interest in trying to help prisoners, for fear of being labeled "soft on crime."

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2004-05-12 02:02pm

In a force of 150,000.. a good percentage taken from the poor, under-educated.. eh. I will say this: It's not policy. It's wholly believable that you put people in a stressful situation, that despite all their indoctrination, some are going to want to play by their own rules if they can get away with it.

Though over the US Armed Forces, has generally conducted itself in a civilized manner as an occupation force.

I mean, just about every war we've been in, you have reports of gunning down, abuse, tortures and executions of the prisoners. You hear about rapes, pillagings and thefts.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2004-05-12 02:09pm

Currald wrote: I should also point out that even in the prisons here on the US mainland, all sorts of terrible things happen on a daily basis. Politicians have no interest in trying to help prisoners, for fear of being labeled "soft on crime."

I have few doubts that humiliation similar to, if not quite as extreme as that in the Iraq photos, occurs on a regular basis in US prisons.
And I also wouldn't be surprised if the people who worked for US prisons and found themselves Ahbu-Graib got their some of their ideas from their work related experiences at home.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2004-05-12 02:18pm

US troops are not suppost to do things like this. If I was in charge this shit would have not happened. A rememinder needs to be sent among our forces that this kind of behavior will earn you a permanent change of station to beautiful Fort Leavenworth. How many more troops we will lose because of what these people did is not a question that needed to be answered.

Exmoor Cat · Post by **Exmoor Cat** » 2004-05-12 02:47pm

Somebody please explain to me why intelligence interrogation has been handed over to "private contractors"?

Currald · Post by **Currald** » 2004-05-12 02:49pm

To furthur enrich Cheney's cronies?

Plekhanov · Post by **Plekhanov** » 2004-05-12 03:11pm

I suppose either because the occupation was so appallingly planned that they didn’t train enough army interrogators or because “private contractors” aren’t totally within the normal command structures the administration feels it can more easily deny responsibility for their actions,

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2004-05-12 03:17pm

I think part of the problem may be these goddamn "military contracters", aka mercenaries we keep hiring. I recall hearing that some of the prison guards were former "security" guys from Pinochet's regime, from South Africa, etc.

Nova Andromeda · Post by **Nova Andromeda** » 2004-05-12 03:51pm

Darth Wong wrote:Do you remember how countless reports of US troops killing civilians or brutalizing prisoners in Afghanistan or Guantanamo have been ignored for years now because most people just rolled their eyes at the source (usually victims or relatives of victims speaking to Arab press) and basically argued that the charges are simply absurd because US troops would never do that?

--Are you so certain people in the west just rolled their eyes at the source? From what I was hearing and seeing people simply thought it was okay because "they're just a bunch of terrorists." Fox news had O'Reily actually arguing that torture is okay. In fact, even you argue that torture is okay under certain circumstances (not that I dispute this necessarily). It wasn't until people started seeing the pictures that they objected to the treatment of those prisoners (who could very well be the worst criminals in Iraq as far as most people know). Nevertheless, there are plenty of people who are completely unrepentant (e.g., the congressman who was "outraged" at the outrage at the abuse). I find it really disturbing that people are so quick to change their minds on an issue just because they see some unpleasant photos and that without those photos the U.S. gov. can imprison and torture teenagers at will.
-Why is it people need to see pictures of abuse before they disapprove of it?

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-05-12 04:09pm

Nova Andromeda wrote: --Are you so certain people in the west just rolled their eyes at the source? From what I was hearing and seeing people simply thought it was okay because "they're just a bunch of terrorists." Fox news had O'Reily actually arguing that torture is okay. In fact, even you argue that torture is okay under certain circumstances (not that I dispute this necessarily

yet this apparently wasn't a situation where torture was necessary to extract vital information.

It wasn't until people started seeing the pictures that they objected to the treatment of those prisoners (who could very well be the worst criminals in Iraq as far as most people know). Nevertheless, there are plenty of people who are completely unrepentant (e.g., the congressman who was "outraged" at the outrage at the abuse). I find it really disturbing that people are so quick to change their minds on an issue just because they see some unpleasant photos and that without those photos the U.S. gov. can imprison and torture teenagers at will.
-Why is it people need to see pictures of abuse before they disapprove of it?

without solid proof that such abuse occurred it boils down to your word against theirs. not a situation any lawyer wants to find themselves in as those cases are incredibly difficult to win in trials. photographs are conclusive evidence once they've been tested to determine their validity.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-05-12 04:20pm

Darth Wong wrote: One question: do you still think that way, in light of pictures showing US troops torturing prisoners and laughing? How many of those accusations may have been true, but simply ignored by the West because of our arrogant confidence that our good boys just wouldn't ever do that?

I know someone will say "it was just a few miscreants", but who's to say that other such miscreants aren't sprinkled liberally throughout the forces? What's the chance that the entire US armed forces had just six miscreants who all happened to have the same moral defect and all happened to be on the night shift at the same prison, while the rest of the forces were as pure as driven snow?

I believed the accusations from the start. Perhaps because the Canadian Somali Incident was fresh in my mind. I served in the military and I know how easy it can be to cross over that imaginary line. As well it was pretty clear to me that something was going to happen eventually juts from the way the US Administration has demonized the Arab world over 9/11. I would guess that this is a system wide problem but that other "miscreants" are kept in check by a strong chain of command.

Nova Andromeda · Post by **Nova Andromeda** » 2004-05-12 04:42pm

Darth_Zod wrote:
Nova Andromeda wrote: --Are you so certain people in the west just rolled their eyes at the source? From what I was hearing and seeing people simply thought it was okay because "they're just a bunch of terrorists." Fox news had O'Reily actually arguing that torture is okay. In fact, even you argue that torture is okay under certain circumstances (not that I dispute this necessarily
yet this apparently wasn't a situation where torture was necessary to extract vital information.

-Pictures don't tell you that and we had plenty of reports before hand that torture was being used and that there were no protections for the innocent.

Darth_Zod wrote:
Nova Andromeda wrote:It wasn't until people started seeing the pictures that they objected to the treatment of those prisoners (who could very well be the worst criminals in Iraq as far as most people know). Nevertheless, there are plenty of people who are completely unrepentant (e.g., the congressman who was "outraged" at the outrage at the abuse). I find it really disturbing that people are so quick to change their minds on an issue just because they see some unpleasant photos and that without those photos the U.S. gov. can imprison and torture teenagers at will.
-Why is it people need to see pictures of abuse before they disapprove of it?
without solid proof that such abuse occurred it boils down to your word against theirs. not a situation any lawyer wants to find themselves in as those cases are incredibly difficult to win in trials. photographs are conclusive evidence once they've been tested to determine their validity.

-Pleading ignorance does not absolve one when they did nothing to prevent the abuse that has occured and simply allowed the government to keep everything secret. That includes many citizens of the U.S.

Plekhanov · Post by **Plekhanov** » 2004-05-12 06:00pm

Frank Hipper wrote:
Currald wrote: I should also point out that even in the prisons here on the US mainland, all sorts of terrible things happen on a daily basis. Politicians have no interest in trying to help prisoners, for fear of being labeled "soft on crime."
I have few doubts that humiliation similar to, if not quite as extreme as that in the Iraq photos, occurs on a regular basis in US prisons.
And I also wouldn't be surprised if the people who worked for US prisons and found themselves Ahbu-Graib got their some of their ideas from their work related experiences at home.

It would seem you guys couldn’t be more right, according to this story I just saw on fark one of the accused guards has a history back home also a bit more info here.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-05-12 06:09pm

Nova Andromeda wrote:
Darth_Zod wrote:
Nova Andromeda wrote: --Are you so certain people in the west just rolled their eyes at the source? From what I was hearing and seeing people simply thought it was okay because "they're just a bunch of terrorists." Fox news had O'Reily actually arguing that torture is okay. In fact, even you argue that torture is okay under certain circumstances (not that I dispute this necessarily
yet this apparently wasn't a situation where torture was necessary to extract vital information.
-Pictures don't tell you that and we had plenty of reports before hand that torture was being used and that there were no protections for the innocent.

i never said that they did tell you that.

the only thing the pictures will confirm is that the torture happened, after they have been validated by experts. Where's your evidence that the torture being conducted was necessary? if that is indeed what you're trying to argue.

Darth_Zod wrote:
Nova Andromeda wrote:It wasn't until people started seeing the pictures that they objected to the treatment of those prisoners (who could very well be the worst criminals in Iraq as far as most people know). Nevertheless, there are plenty of people who are completely unrepentant (e.g., the congressman who was "outraged" at the outrage at the abuse). I find it really disturbing that people are so quick to change their minds on an issue just because they see some unpleasant photos and that without those photos the U.S. gov. can imprison and torture teenagers at will.
-Why is it people need to see pictures of abuse before they disapprove of it?
without solid proof that such abuse occurred it boils down to your word against theirs. not a situation any lawyer wants to find themselves in as those cases are incredibly difficult to win in trials. photographs are conclusive evidence once they've been tested to determine their validity.
-Pleading ignorance does not absolve one when they did nothing to prevent the abuse that has occured and simply allowed the government to keep everything secret. That includes many citizens of the U.S.

it's pleading ignorance to state that there's no solid proof that abuse had happened? you can't very well claim that there's been abuse and do something about it based on circumstantial evidence and heresay.

Nova Andromeda · Post by **Nova Andromeda** » 2004-05-12 06:52pm

Darth_Zod wrote:
Nova Andromeda wrote:
Darth_Zod wrote: yet this apparently wasn't a situation where torture was necessary to extract vital information.
-Pictures don't tell you that and we had plenty of reports before hand that torture was being used and that there were no protections for the innocent.
i never said that they did tell you that.

the only thing the pictures will confirm is that the torture happened, after they have been validated by experts. Where's your evidence that the torture being conducted was necessary? if that is indeed what you're trying to argue.

-Are you raelly so dense? My whole point is that people didn't know whether torture was necessary or not because of the pictures, yet somehow they all changed their minds as to whether it is okay based on those pictures!!! Do you even have a point to make or are you just wasting my time?

Darth_Zod wrote:
Nova Andromeda wrote:
Darth_Zod wrote: without solid proof that such abuse occurred it boils down to your word against theirs. not a situation any lawyer wants to find themselves in as those cases are incredibly difficult to win in trials. photographs are conclusive evidence once they've been tested to determine their validity.
-Pleading ignorance does not absolve one when they did nothing to prevent the abuse that has occured and simply allowed the government to keep everything secret. That includes many citizens of the U.S.
it's pleading ignorance to state that there's no solid proof that abuse had happened? you can't very well claim that there's been abuse and do something about it based on circumstantial evidence and heresay.

-Holy bolts and wires are you dense! Did you even bother to read what I wrote? If you allow your government to setup a prison system where everything is kept secret and there are no systems in place to prevent abuse you are responsible for that abuse!!! It is called gross negligence. Pleading ignorance of the abuse after the fact does not absolve you!

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2004-05-13 12:45am

When it comes to detaining prisoners with no due process and harassing them, I fully believe it. Until I saw these pictures I think I'd tend to roll my eyes at most allegations of abuse. But deep down, I know that war can bring out the worst in some people. I think there are members of the military and Americans in general that just want to kick someone's ass.

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2004-05-13 01:16am

What makes you think that I thought that way in the first place?

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2004-05-13 01:17am

Chardok wrote:I was an eye-roller, once, Mike. I'll admit it. I have now done a full 180 on that issue. I will never again be so quick to dismiss claims of that nature. While I will still take I'll Jizz on ya's reports with a grain of salt, I will never just say "Psh" and go to CNN.com, etc. I am ashamed of my country for the first time in my life. as soon as I finish school, I fully plan on moving up to Canada. Hope you guys need nurses anywhere except quebec.

Please tell me you were planning on moving to Canada before this whole mess?

I mean seriously, if this event made up your mind then all I have to say is WTF. You're telling me that an illegal crime has made you ashamed of your country? It's not like the president, congress, joint chiefs, ect said "hey, lets torture some prisoners" these are the results of a few idiots.

GySgt. Hartman · Post by **GySgt. Hartman** » 2004-05-13 05:45am

Kamakazie Sith wrote: It's not like the president, congress, joint chiefs, ect said "hey, lets torture some prisoners" these are the results of a few idiots.

Congress - no, probably not. On the rest, I am not so sure. How come you are? Please tell me it's not "'cause I trust my president".

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2004-05-13 06:45am

I think the "US troops would never do that" was rediculous statement 30 years ago, much less today. It shows a great deal of ignorance of history. George Washington hanged some of his own troops because of thier raping and looting of Tory farmsteads, we have passed out blankets laden with small pox, during WWII we imprisoned innocent civilians, strafed lifeboats, and firebombed non-military targets, vietnam had Mai Lei. There were hundreds of rapes reported in the aftermath of the Invasion of Panama. We aren't anywhere near as clean as we like to convince our selves we are.

Chardok · Post by **Chardok** » 2004-05-13 08:32am

Kamakazie Sith wrote:Please tell me you were planning on moving to Canada before this whole mess?

There or australia, but it's REALLY hard for an american to get an aussie visa, I hear. Canada seemed the next best thing.

I mean seriously, if this event made up your mind then all I have to say is WTF. You're telling me that an illegal crime has made you ashamed of your country?

Yes. A crime against humanity. Crimes. It's appalling. The abuses have and the turns my country has taken of late have made me ashamed to say "I am an American" where once I had the whole "I RULE! I'M AN AMERICAN" attitude.

At any rate, your really making a molehill out of a mountain, aren't you? AN illegal crime? You don't seem to realize that in congress yesterday, the photos viewed by congresspeople showing sometimes ten sets of boots standing in the photos in addition to the people in the photos themselves, and reports say the photos were WORSE than the ones previous. Before this, I would have said "Never, ever, would american troops or commanders allow things like this to happen, this is something I would expect from some African country in a civil war. No, my friend, this is not A crime, but many crimes. How many of the people at abu Graeb are innocent? Wrong place wrong time? do you think that warrants a broomstick up the ass? I am ashamed beyond words.

It's not like the president, congress, joint chiefs, ect said "hey, lets torture some prisoners" these are the results of a few idiots.

Not a few. Many. As time goes on, we'll see. Perhaps the U.S. will redeem herself, but I doubt it, not with Monkey McDipshit in the white house.

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