Big surprise, "Just following orders..." says Pfc.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2004-05-12 03:55pm

By KIRK JOHNSON, The New York Times

The New Yorker via AP
Pfc. Lynndie R. England at the Abu Ghraib prison
Video: England Speaks Out

Broadband Only

DENVER, May 11 - Pfc. Lynndie R. England, a prison guard who has been prominent in photographs that led to an outcry over treatment of inmates at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, said in a television interview broadcast Tuesday night that she acted on instructions from superior officers.

" 'That's a good tactic, keep it up,' " Private England, who is 21 years old, quoting commanding officers that she did not name as saying.

Asked about a photograph in which Private England was shown holding a leash attached to a chained and collared prisoner, she said the pose and the picture had been a result of direct orders.

"I was instructed by persons in higher ranks to stand there and hold this leash," she said in the interview, on KCNC-TV in Denver.

Ms. England, who is shown smiling and pointing to naked prisoners in some of photographs, said in the interview that she and the other soldiers in the pictures sometimes felt "kind of weird" about what they were asked to do. But she insisted that people in the "higher chain of command," knew all about it.

She was specifically told, she said of one photograph, to "stand there, give the thumbs up, and smile."

"To us, we were doing our jobs, which meant doing what we were told," she said at another point.

The reporter who conducted the interview, Brian Maass of KCNC, a CBS-owned station, said in his report on the 10 p.m. newscast here that Ms. England's lawyers had instructed her not to answer some of his questions. But the hints she gave in not responding seemed likely to provoke as much controversy as the things she openly talked about.

Asked if there were worse things that went on with prisoners at Abu Ghraib than the things shown in the photographs, Private England said yes. But then on the advice of her lawyers, she declined to say more.

She said her superiors had also wanted to keep the scandal within the military, "and not go public." There was an effort, she said, "to keep it hush-hush."

Mr. Maass described Ms. England as calm and confident during the hourlong interview, and in the portions that were broadcast on Tuesday, she showed little remorse.

"We didn't feel like we were doing things we weren't supposed to do," she said.

Private England was charged last Friday by the military with assaulting detainees at the prison and conspiring to mistreat them and with committing acts that were "prejudicial to good order and discipline and were of nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces."

The interview was filmed in a hotel in Fayetteville, N.C., near Fort Bragg, where Private England is currently based. The news director for KCNC, Angie Kucharski, said Mr. Maass arranged the interview through Ms. England's Denver-based lawyers.

Mr. Maass, Ms. Kucharski said, "had developed a relationship with the legal team," and, together with a cameraman and producer, traveled to North Carolina with the lawyers, who Ms. Kucharski said had experience with military cases. On Tuesday, Ms. England agreed to an interview.

"She wanted to make sure that people in the US and around the world knew that only one side of the story was being told," Ms. Kucharski said. "They spent time together without the camera, and she was willing to sit down later this evening and tell her side of the story."

May 12, 2004

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-05-12 04:09pm

Ahh the age-old excuse "I was just following orders". Too bad for her, that shit doesn't fly anymore. It is the right and obligation of every soldier to refuse to carry out illegal or unethical orders. This has been a cornerstone of miltaries since the Nuremburg trials. If this responsibility was too much for her than she shouldn't have been in the military to start with.

Ubiquitous · Post by **Ubiquitous** » 2004-05-12 04:09pm

Not much of a debate here I'd imagine ... who else didn't think she'd just blame her superiors?

Cosmic Average · Post by **Cosmic Average** » 2004-05-12 04:18pm

ALI_G wrote:Not much of a debate here I'd imagine ... who else didn't think she'd just blame her superiors?

Well, they might have been.

From the New York Times:

Officer Suggests Iraq Jail Abuse Was Encouraged
By PHILIP SHENON

Published: May 2, 2004

WASHINGTON, May 1 — An Army Reserve general whose soldiers were photographed as they abused Iraqi prisoners said Saturday that she knew nothing about the abuse until weeks after it occurred and that she was "sickened" by the pictures. She said the prison cellblock where the abuse occurred was under the tight control of Army military intelligence officers who may have encouraged the abuse.

The suggestion by Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski that the reservists acted at the behest of military intelligence officers appears largely supported in a still-classified Army report on prison conditions in Iraq that documented many of the worst abuses at the Abu Ghraib prison, west of Baghdad, including the sexual humiliation of prisoners.

The New Yorker magazine said in its new edition that the report by Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba found that reservist military police at the prison were urged by Army military officers and C.I.A. agents to "set physical and mental conditions for favorable interrogation of witnesses."

Link

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-05-12 04:37pm

Officer Suggests Iraq Jail Abuse Was Encouraged
By PHILIP SHENON

Published: May 2, 2004

WASHINGTON, May 1 — An Army Reserve general whose soldiers were photographed as they abused Iraqi prisoners said Saturday that she knew nothing about the abuse until weeks after it occurred and that she was "sickened" by the pictures. She said the prison cellblock where the abuse occurred was under the tight control of Army military intelligence officers who may have encouraged the abuse.

The suggestion by Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski that the reservists acted at the behest of military intelligence officers appears largely supported in a still-classified Army report on prison conditions in Iraq that documented many of the worst abuses at the Abu Ghraib prison, west of Baghdad, including the sexual humiliation of prisoners.

The New Yorker magazine said in its new edition that the report by Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba found that reservist military police at the prison were urged by Army military officers and C.I.A. agents to "set physical and mental conditions for favorable interrogation of witnesses."

This still doesn't change the fact that this Pvt and the others should have refused to carry out these orders, that is their right and their responsibility as soldiers, and they failed miserably. If these MI officers ordered this treatment then they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the UCMJ. Although I find it interesting that this Pvt was ordered to pose for these photos, could it be that the MI officers set them up to take the fall for them?

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2004-05-12 04:52pm

How does this change the fact that in all the ones I've seen she seems to be having the time of her life?

Cosmic Average · Post by **Cosmic Average** » 2004-05-12 05:05pm

Sharp-kun wrote:How does this change the fact that in all the ones I've seen she seems to be having the time of her life?

I don't think she's too happy in that pic.

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2004-05-12 05:09pm

Cosmic Average wrote:
Sharp-kun wrote:How does this change the fact that in all the ones I've seen she seems to be having the time of her life?
I don't think she's too happy in that pic.

What about that one?

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-05-12 05:09pm

Hmmm unamed superiors and the same excuse I'm sure they used at Magdeburg. Why the hell do I have the feeling this has as much or more to do with her covering her ass than anything?

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-05-12 05:10pm

Lotsa asscovering right to the top with BGEN Karpanski.....

Cosmic Average · Post by **Cosmic Average** » 2004-05-12 05:13pm

Sharp-kun wrote:
Cosmic Average wrote:
Sharp-kun wrote:How does this change the fact that in all the ones I've seen she seems to be having the time of her life?
I don't think she's too happy in that pic.

What about that one?

It looks as if she's forcing a smile, to me, though I suppose it's open to interpretation.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-05-12 05:19pm

It doesn't matter whether she is having the time of her life or not. The point is that she knowingly engaged in an illegal and unethical act in direct violation of the Geneva Convention and the UCMJ. All soldiers are trained on what the Geneva Convention and UCMJ entail and there is no excuse for her violating them.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2004-05-12 05:47pm

Cpl Kendall is correct.

Cosmic Average · Post by **Cosmic Average** » 2004-05-12 05:57pm

That doesn't change the fact that they're trying to scapegoat her.

If she was given orders to committ the abuse, then couldn't the individuals that gave the orders be prosecueted as well?

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2004-05-12 06:35pm

Cosmic Average wrote:That doesn't change the fact that they're trying to scapegoat her.

If she was given orders to committ the abuse, then couldn't the individuals that gave the orders be prosecueted as well?

Scape goat her? She's in the freaking picture. She did it. Fuck her. They're going after her boyfriend as well and last I heard, around six to ten more soldiers. She's hardly a scape goat.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2004-05-12 06:48pm

You know, I think the only thing that will appease the hardline Islamicists in Iraq and the ME would be televised executions. Personally, I think these people should be locked away for 10-20 years.

Post by **RogueIce** » 2004-05-12 08:35pm

Knife wrote:
Cosmic Average wrote:That doesn't change the fact that they're trying to scapegoat her.

If she was given orders to committ the abuse, then couldn't the individuals that gave the orders be prosecueted as well?
Scape goat her? She's in the freaking picture. She did it. Fuck her. They're going after her boyfriend as well and last I heard, around six to ten more soldiers. She's hardly a scape goat.

Ditto.

To PFC England:

Christ, you're in the pictures. You're gonna get hammered. At least take the one shred of dignity you have left and own up to your own damn actions. I guess somebody forgot to tell you that, in the military as well as life, you have to take responsibility for your actions, good and bad.

The whole prisoner abuse thing is bad enough, but now to see these "soldiers" turning on each other and their commanders faster than the players in Survivor to shift blame off themselves is just sickening to me.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-05-12 09:19pm

We should remember that just because this woman is guilty as hell, that doesn't mean her superiors didn't give orders to the effect that she describes, thus making them guilty as hell as well.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2004-05-12 10:15pm

The Kernel wrote:We should remember that just because this woman is guilty as hell, that doesn't mean her superiors didn't give orders to the effect that she describes, thus making them guilty as hell as well.

True, but more than her *are* going to stand tall in a court martial. Weather or not some general gets slammed is somthing to be seen but I doubt it. Though General whatshernuts will probably be retired and never command anything again.

PFC England is not a scapegoat rather just one of the first to get slammed for something she did.

Macross · Post by **Macross** » 2004-05-12 11:43pm

Was she following orders when she engaged in explicit sex acts in front of Iraqi prisoners?

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-05-13 12:02am

The Kernel wrote:We should remember that just because this woman is guilty as hell, that doesn't mean her superiors didn't give orders to the effect that she describes, thus making them guilty as hell as well.

No, it doesn't. And frankly I suspect that there are plenlty of people that at the least condoned it or practiced willful ignorance.

But frankly, I don't put much stock in her self serving, ass-covering testimony. Her testimony that she was just following orders is flimsy as hell (even were it an acceptable defense).

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-05-13 12:07am

Did you see her on TV? She points the finger at her superiors with that same shit-eating grin that she wore when she was pointing at Iraqi captives.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-05-13 12:10am

Darth Wong wrote:Did you see her on TV? She points the finger at her superiors with that same shit-eating grin that she wore when she was pointing at Iraqi captives.

Are you saying she's sexually abusing her superiors as well?

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-05-13 12:20am

I think it's obvious that this Pvt is in over her head and has no idea of the shitstorm that is about to land on her head. She's just trying to cover her ass. Frankly I'm suprised that her lawyers haven't come up with a better defensive strategy than the "I was just following orders" crap, considering it doesn't fly anymore. I hope this broad spends the rest of her life in Leavenworth, but knowing the military she'll probably just be dishonourably discharged.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-05-13 12:26am

Darth Wong wrote:Did you see her on TV? She points the finger at her superiors with that same shit-eating grin that she wore when she was pointing at Iraqi captives.

What the hell is she doing on TV? Shouldn't she be in a cell or something?

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Big surprise, "Just following orders..." says Pfc.

Big surprise, "Just following orders..." says Pfc.

Age old excuse

Doesn't matter

In over her head