Rumsfeld Backs Interigation Methods

[Mr. Sinister]

What? You're saying you're suprised

WASHINGTON (May 12) -- Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld on Wednesday defended military interrogation techniques in Iraq, rejecting complaints that they violate international rules and may endanger Americans taken prisoner.

Rumsfeld told a Senate committee that Pentagon lawyers had approved methods such as sleep deprivation and dietary changes as well as rules permitting guards to make prisoners assume stressful positions.

Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, noted that the rules require prisoners to be treated humanely at all times.

But Sen. Richard Durbin, D-Ill., said some of the approved techniques ''go far beyond the Geneva Convention,'' a reference to international rules governing the treatment of prisoners of war.

At the insistence of lawmakers, the Pentagon arranged for members of Congress to view photos and videos depicting the abuse of Iraqis in the Abu Ghraib prison, including examples of prisoners forced into sexually humiliating poses. A congressional aide said there are about 1,800 images and some video.

After seeing some of the images, Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore., said: ''I expected that these pictures would be very hard on the stomach lining and it was significantly worse then anything that I had anticipated. Take the worst case and multiply it several times over.''

Rep. Jane Harman, D-Calif., said some of the images were of male prisoners masturbating. She said she saw a clothed man beating himself against a wall as though to knock himself unconscious.

''I saw cruel, sadistic torture,'' she said.

Rep. Johnny Isakson, R-Ga., viewed the images for about 10 minutes. ''Most of the photographs were the same, but there were additional ones with more nudity,'' he said.

Rumsfeld spoke after two weeks of controversy provoked by photographs of American military personnel abusing prisoners in Iraq. An American was beheaded in a videotaped execution posted to a militant Islamic Web site on Tuesday - a killing that captors said was revenge for the abuse.

President Bush declared there was ''no justification'' for the beheading of American civilian Nicholas Berg. He said the terrorists who executed Berg wanted to shake America's resolve in bringing democracy to the war-torn country.

''The actions of the terrorists who executed this man remind us of the nature of the few people who want to stop the advance of freedom in Iraq,'' Bush said.

Durbin noted that one American GI was missing in Iraq, his whereabouts unknown. Given the circumstances, he asked Rumsfeld, ''wouldn't it help if there was clarity from you and from this administration that we would abide by the Geneva Convention when it comes to civilian and military detainees unequivocally?''

Expanding his question to include detainees in Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay, he asked whether such a declaration would ''also serve to help American prisoners'' held captive.

Rumsfeld replied that the Geneva Convention applies to all prisoners held in Iraq, but not to those held in Guantanamo Bay, where detainees captured in the global war on terror are held.

Any al-Qaida or Taliban personnel taken prisoner are to be treated consistent with the Geneva Convention, under a decision made by Bush, Rumsfeld added.

He said the distinction is that the international rules govern wars between countries but not those involving groups such as al-Qaida. ''Terrorists don't comply with the laws of war. They go around killing innocent civilians,'' Rumsfeld added.

A second Democrat, Sen. Patrick Leahy of Vermont, said that a report issued in March by Human Rights Watch ''corroborated such things'' as sleep deprivation, prisoners kept naked in sleeping cells or forced to stand or kneel for hours.

The report covers prisoners held in Afghanistan, he said, adding it ''appears to be exactly the same technique'' as was employed in Iraq.

Rumsfeld and other Pentagon officials have said the abuses in Abu Ghraib were unauthorized actions taken by a handful of personnel, and Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, who investigated the mistreatment, testified to that effect before a Senate committee on Tuesday.

Half a world away, there were further repercussions.

Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt announced that two more American soldiers have been ordered to stand trial in the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal although no date for the courts-martial was set. Sgt. Javal Davis, 26, of Maryland and Staff Sgt. Ivan L. ''Chip'' Frederick II of Buckingham, Va., were ordered to undergo a general court-martial, Kimmitt said. Spc. Jeremy C. Sivits, of Hyndman, Pa., goes on trial May 19 before a special court martial, which cannot levy as severe a sentence as a general court-martial.

Taguba told the Senate Armed Services Committee that military police who acted improperly did so ''of their own volition.'' But several senators questioned whether low-ranking soldiers would have created the sexually humiliating scenarios by themselves.

''It implies too much knowledge of what would be particularly humiliating to these Muslim prisoners,'' said Sen. Susan Collins, R-Maine. ''And that is why, even though I do not yet have the evidence, I cannot help but suspect that others were involved, that military intelligence personnel were involved, or people further up the chain of command.''

Sen. Ben Nelson, D-Neb., challenged Taguba on his statement that Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, who headed the 800th Military Police Brigade at the prison, bore responsibility for a breakdown in discipline that led to abuse.

Taguba testified that orders were issued taking tactical control of the Abu Ghraib facility away from Karpinski and giving it to Col. Thomas M. Pappas, commander of the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade.

''It was clear that he was directed to be the forward operating base commander there for security detainees and force protection,'' Taguba said. ''However, General Karpinski challenged that and she noted that in her recorded testimony.''

Taguba said the order placing Pappas in charge of prison policy where Karpinski's MPs worked created a confusing situation and was contrary to Army doctrine. Nonetheless, he found that Karpinski retained overall responsibility for the MPs in her brigade and assigned much of the blame for the abuse to inadequate leadership on her part.

Asked to put in simple words how the abuses happened, Taguba said: ''Failure in leadership, sir, from the brigade commander on down. Lack of discipline, no training whatsoever and no supervision. Supervisory omission was rampant.''

Karpinski has been suspended and issued an official letter of admonishment in connection with the abuse. She has not been charged and has asserted other officers are attempting to make her a scapegoat.

[Stofsk]

No offence to you yanks, but I'm seriously thinking a team of monkeys might make a better choice than your current crop of politicians.

Rumsfeld told a Senate committee that Pentagon lawyers had approved methods such as sleep deprivation and dietary changes as well as rules permitting guards to make prisoners assume stressful positions.

Sleep deprivation doesn't sound too bad, neither does "dietary changes" (whatever the hell that means - feed them forbidden foods? Whatever), but the last part seems to have been creatively interpreted. I wonder what it was supposed to mean in the context of allowed practice? I doubt arranging a naked pyramid qualifies.

Karpinski has been suspended and issued an official letter of admonishment in connection with the abuse. She has not been charged and has asserted other officers are attempting to make her a scapegoat.

Always someone has to cry "scapegoat." What, do they think they're promethean in their protestation?

[Aaron]

Scapegoat my ass. As the CO of 800th MP Brigade BGen Karpinski is responsible for everything happening in that unit, whether she likes it or not. Discipline problems are usually the result of an ineffectual chain of command, of which she is at the top. If the soldiers were poorly trained then that is her fault as well, she is partialy responsible for making up the training schedule.

She's just trying to weasel her way out of getting charged for this clusterfuck.

[GySgt. Hartman]

Sleep deprivation doesn't sound too bad, neither does "dietary changes" (whatever the hell that means - feed them forbidden foods? Whatever), but the last part [stressful positions] seems to have been creatively interpreted. I wonder what it was supposed to mean in the context of allowed practice? I doubt arranging a naked pyramid qualifies.

Sleep deprivation is not too bad is it's only for one or two consecutive nights, but prolonged deprivation can kill you or drive you insane.
Dietary changes could be interpreted to feeding them pork or not giving them anthing to eat at all. And I believe having someone bend over with a broomstick in his ass certainly does qualify as a stressful position, don't you? There is a reason why there is no such thing as "a little torture".

[wautd]

Sleep deprivation doesn't sound too bad, neither does "dietary changes" (whatever the hell that means - feed them forbidden foods? Whatever), but the last part [stressful positions] seems to have been creatively interpreted. I wonder what it was supposed to mean in the context of allowed practice? I doubt arranging a naked pyramid qualifies.

Sleep deprivation is not too bad is it's only for one or two consecutive nights, but prolonged deprivation can kill you or drive you insane.

True, the mod on another forum has an uncle who was imprisoned in the GDR and they did it to him. He told he it fucked him up pretty bad

[Tsyroc]

Rumsfeld replied that the Geneva Convention applies to all prisoners held in Iraq, but not to those held in Guantanamo Bay, where detainees captured in the global war on terror are held.

That statement is just so fucking lame. Something like that should never be coming from an official of the United States Government.

If these people aren't enemy combantants and therefore not covered under the Geneva convention then at the very least they should be under the UCMJ and/or Federal Legal Codes.

Nowhere in the UCMJ do I recall seeing anything that allows the kind of crap they are suggesting.


We should be better than this.

[Solauren]

The American people is better then that
Just there current officals are not

[Darth Wong]

As the soldiers and ex-soldiers on this very board demonstrate, this kind of thinking is not endemic to the forces. However, Rumsfeld at al. think that humane treatment of prisoners is a legal imperative but not a moral one. Therein lies the problem in a nutshell.

[jegs2]

Taguba testified that orders were issued taking tactical control of the Abu Ghraib facility away from Karpinski and giving it to Col. Thomas M. Pappas, commander of the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade.

I once worked for Pappas, when he was a LTC. I'm not allowed to say what I think of him.

[Nova Andromeda]

However, Rumsfeld at al. think that humane treatment of prisoners is a legal imperative but not a moral one. Therein lies the problem in a nutshell.

--You do not think it is a moral imperative either and the only difference is a matter of degree. Rumsfeld is probably willing to torture 5000 terrorists to save one U.S. soldier while you might require the saving of many more lives before torturing even one terrorist. Rumsfeld is probably not so concerned about figuring out who is innocent if he thinks it gets in the way of getting intel., you would presumably have stricter evidence requirements before torture is used. The same is true for the general treatment of prisoners. You would have higher evidence requirements before allowing prisoners to be subjected to inhumane conditions, but probably wouldn't give a shit if you knew they were all a bunch of murderers bent on building a theocracy at any cost.
-I have yet to see anyone actually try to defend a point a which it becomes acceptable to torture a prisoner. Until someone can make such an arguement and show that Rumsfeld has crossed that point I have to wonder if all those people condemning the Bush administration are throwing stones from glass houses.