Big surprise, "Just following orders..." says Pfc.

[Aaron]

Did you see her on TV? She points the finger at her superiors with that same shit-eating grin that she wore when she was pointing at Iraqi captives.

What the hell is she doing on TV? Shouldn't she be in a cell or something?

One would think so, at the very least she should have a gag order forebiding her to speak for the press. As far as I'm concerned she should be cooling her heels in a cell. And what's with the lawyers? Since when do US military personnel get represention other than an army JAG officer?

[Uraniun235]

If this responsibility was too much for her than she shouldn't have been in the military to start with.

A bit off-topic, but using this line of reasoning, couldn't people in conscript armies hypothetically get away with shit like this? (since they were placed in a position they shouldn't have been in by forces beyond their control)

[jegs2]

And what's with the lawyers? Since when do US military personnel get represention other than an army JAG officer?

Soldiers faced with a court martial are permitted to hire a civilian attorney. Since few civilian attorneys are familiar with the UCMJ or the court martial system, hiring one can backfire.

[Edi]

If this responsibility was too much for her than she shouldn't have been in the military to start with.

A bit off-topic, but using this line of reasoning, couldn't people in conscript armies hypothetically get away with shit like this? (since they were placed in a position they shouldn't have been in by forces beyond their control)

No, they can't. I was in a conscript army, and we were briefed on these kinds of things. The Geneva Conventions were discussed, and there is the matter of having the duty to refuse to follow illegal orders. Conscript or professional, no difference in that you will get charged, but the degree of culpability could (perhaps) be assessed to be different when you compare poorly trained conscripts acting on the orders of professional officers and professional career soldiers.

Edi

[GySgt. Hartman]

To PFC England:

Christ, you're in the pictures. You're gonna get hammered. At least take the one shred of dignity you have left and own up to your own damn actions. I guess somebody forgot to tell you that, in the military as well as life, you have to take responsibility for your actions, good and bad.

The whole prisoner abuse thing is bad enough, but now to see these "soldiers" turning on each other and their commanders faster than the players in Survivor to shift blame off themselves is just sickening to me.

Why do you lose your dignity when you help uncover what's been going on? Surely she knows that she won't get a lesser sentence, but maybe she just wants the other culprits to go down as well. I'd do the same in her position - accept my share of the responsibility, but not cover for my superiors as well.

Btw.: Just because a superior was pointing a camera at her and told her to smile doesn't mean she didn't enjoy it.

[BoredShirtless]

What a stupid bitch. "We didn't feel like we were doing things we weren't supposed to do," she said. for sure will be used by the prosecution. Unlike those two dudes in A Few Good Men, these bitches and bastards seem to have no genuine regret for what they did. In fact, I'm pretty sure they think deep down they've done nothing wrong.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Ahh the age-old excuse "I was just following orders". Too bad for her, that shit doesn't fly anymore. It is the right and obligation of every soldier to refuse to carry out illegal or unethical orders. This has been a cornerstone of miltaries since the Nuremburg trials. If this responsibility was too much for her than she shouldn't have been in the military to start with.

erm that shit hasn't flown since 1945, and It made me very, very concerned when Bush/Rumsfield included a provision to protect US soldiers from Geneva prosecution BEFORE the war started...

kinda tells you something?

[Tsyroc]

And what's with the lawyers? Since when do US military personnel get represention other than an army JAG officer?

Soldiers faced with a court martial are permitted to hire a civilian attorney. Since few civilian attorneys are familiar with the UCMJ or the court martial system, hiring one can backfire.

I think her lawyers have already screwed up. I would guess they are responsible for her being interviewed on tv. I'm sure that's going to go over real well with her court martial. Anyone ever heard of publicity helping in a military trial? I suppose it might have somewhat saved that one pilot who was boning that married enlisted guy. I'd have to check and see if they are still sticking it to her or not.

I'd still like to know where these pictures came from. If she is telling the truth and they were taken by some intelligence types then how and why did these pictures end up in the press?

I'm assuming that the prison probably has a camera in it for official uses but I would think that for the privacy of the prisoners and the security of the prison people would not be allowed to bring personal cameras into the building. So, WTF?

Even if there wasn't a Geneva convention why would anyone think it is okay to do stuff like this to prisoners?

[Aaron]

I'd still like to know where these pictures came from. If she is telling the truth and they were taken by some intelligence types then how and why did these pictures end up in the press?

I'm assuming that the prison probably has a camera in it for official uses but I would think that for the privacy of the prisoners and the security of the prison people would not be allowed to bring personal cameras into the building. So, WTF?

Even if there wasn't a Geneva convention why would anyone think it is okay to do stuff like this to prisoners?

I'm guessing that she was ordered to pose for these pics so that the MI types would have evidence in case they needed someone to take the fall for them. I have worked closely with MI NCO's and Officers while I was in the Canadian Army and I got the impression that as a trade they are very calculating. I am curious myself as to how they came to be in the press.

[jegs2]

If the photos served any use, they would be for threatened (or actual) use against prisoners: "I will show these shameful photos to members of your tribe if you don't tell me what I want to know."

[Aaron]

If the photos served any use, they would be for threatened (or actual) use against prisoners: "I will show these shameful photos to members of your tribe if you don't tell me what I want to know."

How would that be of any use. Of all the pictures I've seen, only one had a person without their head covered. It's kinda hard to humiliate someone that a picture doesn't identify.

[RogueIce]

Why do you lose your dignity when you help uncover what's been going on? Surely she knows that she won't get a lesser sentence, but maybe she just wants the other culprits to go down as well. I'd do the same in her position - accept my share of the responsibility, but not cover for my superiors as well.

Btw.: Just because a superior was pointing a camera at her and told her to smile doesn't mean she didn't enjoy it.

The way it's looking to me, she's trying to shift all responsibility off to someone else. She did it. She needs to just fess up. Smoking a cig and smiling while pointing to a naked prisoner is not something that should be clicked off as right, much less legal.

It's one thing if she acknowledged what she did, and then pointed out that they were ordered. But she's trying to excuse her behaivor by placing all of it on her superiors, when she herself shares a hefty amount of blame.

[jegs2]

How would that be of any use. Of all the pictures I've seen, only one had a person without their head covered. It's kinda hard to humiliate someone that a picture doesn't identify.

From the ones we've seen, you're correct. Most of the ones we've seen just look like photos the soldiers took of each other for souvenirs. That being the case, their level of stupidity may be much higher than even I initially suspected.

[The Yosemite Bear]

I kinda remember Drake talking about basing "Steubeans" off of a real life Military Intell. officer in vietnam, who was consistantly working in the black.