Hybrid Vehicles

[desertjedi]

Just out of curiosity and that I am in the market for a good cheap vehicle >$25K US, I was starting to look at the Hybrid vehicles that are coming out. Ford has their Escape SUV, Honda has the Accord and Toyota has the Prius. If anyone either owns one of these cars or knows someone who does, please put your two cents in!

[LadyTevar]

Just out of curiosity and that I am in the market for a good cheap vehicle >$25K US, I was starting to look at the Hybrid vehicles that are coming out. Ford has their Escape SUV, Honda has the Accord and Toyota has the Prius. If anyone either owns one of these cars or knows someone who does, please put your two cents in!

I've spoken with a Prius owner in the grocery store parking lot several months back. She said she gets 50 miles to the gallon, and doesn't have any problems at all going over hills.
In WV, how well a car takes hills is a Very Important Thing

[Datana]

I've used a 2002 model Prius pretty extensively, though I don't own one myself. Driving it takes a while to get used to, but once you do, it performs pretty much like a normal car. I actually like it quite a bit. The main things to watch out for are the braking and the behavior from a complete stop.

For the first, braking isn't linear! It brakes normally the first half-centimeter or so you depress the brake pedal, but after that, the regenerative brake system (converts motion into electricity to recharge the batteries) kicks in and the brakes suddenly clamp down much harder. Related to this is that instead of a "low gear" mode, it has a "B" setting on the shifter, where the regenerative system is always engaged -- this is useful for slowing yourself down a bit on steep downhill slopes.

Secondly, it's kind of eerie when you come to a complete halt. The gas engine will tend to "die" on you to conserve gas, switching entirely to the electric motor. It stays off until you reach around 10-15 MPH again, a phase I've heard referred to as "stealth mode" by Prius owners due to the lack of noise. In starting the car, you keep the key turned to "ignition" until the "ready" light appears on the dash instead of waiting for the engine to start -- sometimes the gas engine doesn't fire up at all, so that cue becomes visual instead of aural.

If you get over these two points, you'll find that the Prius behaves like a normal vehicle in town (good acceleration and handling -- very zippy). It can take steep hills much better than my own Ford Escort can. On the freeway, it's a bit slower on hard acceleration than a conventional vehicle once you get past around 50-55 MPH, but the 2004 model might have fixed this (both engine and motor are supposed to be more powerful). I've found that fuel economy is around 50-55 MPG in town, and around 40-45 on the freeway -- pretty respectable.

The interior is also pretty unique. Instead of a dash directly in front of the steering wheel, it's recessed towards the windshield and placed centrally (kind of like the Echo, but more sophisticated). Forward of that and downwards is a touch-screen LCD display which can be used to control the radio and CD player, as well as showing battery and fuel efficiency status. The cabin gives a great deal of headspace, being taller than the average sedan, though legroom is a bit lacking for the driver (I can set the seat all the way back and still easily reach the pedals, and I'm only 5'9"). The passenger and rear seats don't have this limitation to as large an extent.

There was a three to six month waiting list for the Prius, last I heard, so if you don't need a car immediately, you might give it a try at the dealer's and then sign up for one if you like it. Be sure to give other options a look first, though, as the Insight, Civic or Escape might be more your style (Insight and Civic also have waiting lists, last I heard). Hope this helps!

UPDATE: I note that you're in California. The California models of most hybrid vehicles get worse mileage, though better emissions due to Californian environmental standards. You can expect to lose from five to ten MPG, depending on the model.

[Crayz9000]

I'd kind of shy away from the Escape. It seems to have inherited Ford's pathetic history of reliability; people have complained about the interior falling apart too quickly, and then there's always Ford's (lack of?) expertise with drivetrains.

[Mr Bean]

Buying a Hybrid SUV is kinda redundant, you buy an SUV for hauling ability and power,(Or if your compesating of course) not for fuel efficeny, thats nice but unless your just wanting to buy something "big" it makes no sense to buy a much less powerful but more efficent SUV (Like buying a sports car with 100 Horsepower or a Truck with a two foot long bed or an SUV with no power)

[Howedar]

Bean, the Escape is a compact SUV. Not something you'd buy for power. Compensation only.

[TrailerParkJawa]

if your up at Alpine, would'nt you want something good for the winter time?
something with all wheel drive? I know they keep the roads pretty clear but not always.

[Crayz9000]

if your up at Alpine, would'nt you want something good for the winter time?
something with all wheel drive? I know they keep the roads pretty clear but not always.

I'd take a Subaru Forester or one of those over an Escape any day. Low center of gravity = good stability.

[Mayabird]

One of my mom's old friends owns a Prius. She got it not too long ago and loves the gas mileage; she hasn't had any trouble with it whatsoever. The thing is, she's an old college professor who doesn't do a lot of serious driving; most of her driving is through San Antonio to and from work and to and from the store. I think she went on a short road trip through Texas with it, but I can't remember though. All I can say is that one person says it works fine in regular day-to-day usage in San Antonio.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Just out of curiosity and that I am in the market for a good cheap vehicle >$25K US, I was starting to look at the Hybrid vehicles that are coming out. Ford has their Escape SUV, Honda has the Accord and Toyota has the Prius. If anyone either owns one of these cars or knows someone who does, please put your two cents in!

I've spoken with a Prius owner in the grocery store parking lot several months back. She said she gets 50 miles to the gallon, and doesn't have any problems at all going over hills.
In WV, how well a car takes hills is a Very Important Thing

important up here too

oh, we use the bio-desile varients hybrids that handel the buses in Yosemite.

part of my off kilter mindset was thinking of the "other" definition of "Hybrid'" vehicle, which would be the Jeep, with outboard.....

[Pu-239]

Doesn't the fuel costs saved by using a hybrid offset significantly by higher initial cost? Also isn't engine efficiency approaching that of a a hybrid? And, what about the diminishing returns, ie 2mpg over 1 mpg is a large improvement, but 50 vs 40 isn't since you are reducing usage of a smaller amount? This is California, so I do not know how this translates.

[The Yosemite Bear]

essentially engineering makes it easier to make a clean burning, engine. since desiel is more efficiant then petrol, and bio-desiel (deseil/alcohol varient) is much cleaner more efficiant then standard, lets face it, hybrid petrol, really isn't that good, a deseil engine with a light body mass, and good power ratio and good traction, etc.

after all the hybrid electric uses gasoline/petrol to recharge electrical batteries, they also use regenerative breaks (disk breaks attach to generator) to recharge the batteries that recharge the engines.

[LapsedPacifist]

Don't VW's turbodiesels get on the order of 50mpg on the highway?

Not a hybrid but it could be an option.

LP

[Alferd Packer]

Don't VW's turbodiesels get on the order of 50mpg on the highway?

Not a hybrid but it could be an option.

LP

The 2003 models did. This year, WV remapped the fuel curves and the timing so that the engine's more powerful, but you get something like 36/42 now. Which is still quite respectable, mind you, and since diesel is dirt cheap right now, it could be a viable alternative to a hybrid.

Plus, you get bucketloads of torque with the diesel(175 ft-lbs with the WV Golf, IIRC), so chugging up a hill shouldn't be too difficult.

[Stormbringer]

Doesn't the fuel costs saved by using a hybrid offset significantly by higher initial cost?

In theory, definitely. And really so long as you drive enough it will be.

Also isn't engine efficiency approaching that of a a hybrid?

No, not even close in truly comparable conditions. Comparing the minimum to the other's maximum isn't exactly a fair comparison.

And, what about the diminishing returns, ie 2mpg over 1 mpg is a large improvement, but 50 vs 40 isn't since you are reducing usage of a smaller amount?

Except it's a very rare car that's going to get anything approaching 40mpg. You might be lucky enough to get that with a car in perfect condition on a highway, but in ordinary conditions you won't get close to that.

[Datana]

Doesn't the fuel costs saved by using a hybrid offset significantly by higher initial cost?

In theory, definitely. And really so long as you drive enough it will be.

I think you have what he's saying backwards, Stormbringer. Pu-239 was saying that the higher cost of the engine outweighs the savings in fuel. I can't really say either way if it would be cost-effective or not; I don't think the price of the electric motor is published publically anywhere, and I don't know how much each person drives.

What I can find, however, are the total vehicle costs. The Prius with all options installed sets you back around 26,000 USD, while the bare-bones model is around 20,000 USD. The Civic Hybrid falls into the same price range. That's pretty affordable for a midsize car, IMO, especially compared to luxury models. I don't know about the Escape; Ford doesn't list a price on it, and simply notes that customers will have to pay a "premium" on top of the price of a standard Escape (a normal Escape ranges from 19,000 to 27,000 USD, depending on options). Based on the difference in price between a Civic Hybrid and conventional Civic, though, the hybrid cost is from 3,000 to 7,000 USD, depending on which trim variant the hybrid was based on (seems to be the Civic LX or EX based on a persual of statistics in the model listings, which would put the price at around $4,000). You can probably calculate a break-even point on fuel from that depending on how much you drive.

EDIT: Changed around a few lines to clear up what looked like a self-contradictory statement.

[desertjedi]

I really appreciate the help you folks have given me. Jus tto let you know, I live 30 miles away from my job and work 4/10 hour days, hence the need for a more fuel-effecient vehicle.

PS. I only threw in the Escape because it's there. I don't think I could seriously consider that particualr vehicle.

[Mr Bean]

Also keep in mind you get tax breaks on Hybrid Vechicals in some states, in Indiana for example its to the tune of $1,500 off your taxes if you buy one

[Datana]

Also keep in mind you get tax breaks on Hybrid Vechicals in some states, in Indiana for example its to the tune of $1,500 off your taxes if you buy one

There are also some penalties, depending on where you are. Plate registration costs twice as much for hybrids in Oregon compared to conventional vehicles, as some asinine politician here decided that the money you're saving on gas is "stealing" gasoline tax money from state coffers.

[Pu-239]

http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,25 ... 13techhead