CBC wrote:WASHINGTON - The U.S. military has been careful to make sure none of the seven soldiers charged in the prisoner abuse scandal has been officially accused of torture.
Instead, they're facing charges that include maltreating detainees and failing to protect detainees from abuse.
The Geneva Conventions define torture as "Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical OR mental, is intentionally inflicted ... (to obtain) .. information or a confession ...."
Last week, as the Abu Ghraib scandal grew, U.S. Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld was asked how he'd describe the actions of U.S. soldiers towards Iraqi prisoners.
"I'm not a lawyer," he said. "My impression is that, so far, it's abuse, which I believe technically is different from torture. I don't know that torture has taken place, therefore I won't address the torture word."
Robert Goldman, an expert on the law of war at American University in Washington, says Rumsfeld is being deliberately unclear about what was going on. "Rumsfeld's a smart guy," said Goldman, "this is not fuzzy."
Rumsfeld came under fire on Capitol Hill from Illinois Democratic Senator Richard Durbin. Holding up a list of Pentagon-approved interrogation techniques, Durbin charged the administration with clearly violating the Geneva Conventions in its treatment of prisoners in Iraq.
Durbin listed what is allowed: "stress positions, dietary manipulation, sleep management ..."
The International Committee of the Red Cross has not been reluctant to describe what's been happening in Abu Ghraib. In its February report on the prison it described aspects of the treatment of prisoners as "tantamount to torture."
Oxford professor Sir Adam Roberts, one of the world's leading experts on the laws of war, says the U.S. government has good reason not to label the actions of its own citizens as torture.
"There is an implication that if it's called torture it comes under the convention to which the U.S. is a party against torture, which allows any state which has signed to put on trial those who have committed torture, and that might be something the U.S. is particularly concerned about," he said.
Goldman believes there's another reason Bush officials avoid the word torture. He argues ideology rather than legal scholarship has shaped the administration's thinking on everything to do with Iraq.
"They have not listened to the law of war experts, both at the State Department and the Pentagon. Instead, they have listened to neo-conservatives with no background in the law of war, who pick and choose what part they want to apply. And where it's not convenient, they don't apply it at all."
It may be difficult for the administration to maintain that evasiveness, with rumours swirling that evidence of much worse treatment of Iraqi prisoners will soon become public.
Apparently if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it's no longer a duck.
M1891/30: A bad day on the range is better then a good day at work.
Wouldn't it be better for the US if they just said; "These guys tortured some prisoners, now we're going to kick their asses."?
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"
- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist
"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin
It is possible to torture someone just for the sake of torture. In fact, when criminals subject people to long hours of pain with no particular motive, you don't see people saying that, "Technically, it's abuse." No, it's torture.
Damien Sorresso
"Ever see what them computa bitchez do to numbas? It ain't natural. Numbas ain't supposed to be code, they supposed to quantify shit."
- The Onion
Durandal wrote:It is possible to torture someone just for the sake of torture. In fact, when criminals subject people to long hours of pain with no particular motive, you don't see people saying that, "Technically, it's abuse." No, it's torture.
If its going to be something that they are charged with, then the definition does matter.
And according to the definition given, there has to be some purpose to it. Even if that's not the standard definition of torture, it seems to be the one that is used in cases like these.
Durandal wrote:It is possible to torture someone just for the sake of torture. In fact, when criminals subject people to long hours of pain with no particular motive, you don't see people saying that, "Technically, it's abuse." No, it's torture.
If its going to be something that they are charged with, then the definition does matter.
And according to the definition given, there has to be some purpose to it. Even if that's not the standard definition of torture, it seems to be the one that is used in cases like these.
Merriam-Webster seems to agree with me.
1 a : anguish of body or mind
b : something that causes agony or pain
2 : the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure
3 : distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or an argument
Where is the definition of torture which states that it must have the intent of extracting information?
Damien Sorresso
"Ever see what them computa bitchez do to numbas? It ain't natural. Numbas ain't supposed to be code, they supposed to quantify shit."
- The Onion
"The Geneva Conventions define torture as "Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical OR mental, is intentionally inflicted ... (to obtain) .. information or a confession ...."
neoolong wrote:"The Geneva Conventions define torture as "Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical OR mental, is intentionally inflicted ... (to obtain) .. information or a confession ...."
I'm just going by what it says in the article.
Here is the full definition of torture from the Geneva Convention. (Apologies for the .doc link).
The Geneva Convention wrote:For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
This article is without prejudice to any international instrument or national legislation which does or may contain provisions of wider application.
Looks like that reporter left a few minor details out.
Damien Sorresso
"Ever see what them computa bitchez do to numbas? It ain't natural. Numbas ain't supposed to be code, they supposed to quantify shit."
- The Onion
Wouldn't it be better for the US if they just said; "These guys tortured some prisoners, now we're going to kick their asses."?
yeah, this makes it look like the us is officially trying to protect the bad guys making the us look like a mafia boss who´s trying to protect the clan.
Wouldn't it be better for the US if they just said; "These guys tortured some prisoners, now we're going to kick their asses."?
yeah, this makes it look like the us is officially trying to protect the bad guys making the us look like a mafia boss who´s trying to protect the clan.
This is actually pretty fucking apt, particularly with the handover approaching and the fact they've said the people they hand over to, who shall remain nameless for now, will have to give some of their sovreingty back to the US again....it has that whole Godfather vibe going on... Make them an offer they cant refuse...
"Prodesse Non Nocere." "It's all about popularity really, if your invisible friend that tells you to invade places is called Napoleon, you're a loony, if he's called Jesus then you're the president." "I'd drive more people insane, but I'd have to double back and pick them up first..." "All it takes for bullshit to thrive is for rational men to do nothing." - Kevin Farrell, B.A. Journalism. BOTM - EBC - Horseman - G&C - Vampire
