omegaLancer wrote:Problem of mech is that they tower over the battlefield, making them a target.. with guided weaponary and the shear destructive power of modern anti armor weapons it would be walking Tomb.
The lower the profile the better, the German even design their lastest battle tank with lifters to lower and rise the main chasis...
Well, as far as Mobile Suit Gundam is concerned, I believe size generally provides a sight advantage. Sinse radar is nullified, targeting relys purely on computer-aided visuals, s a higher vantage point to aim and shoot from is optimal. Combined with the lack of guided missiles and ground targeting for most non-mobile suit weapons (ever notice how some of the missile-launchers in the series have wires attached to the warheads? Wire-guided systems haven't been in use sinse the 1940's).
Also, their size is optimal for the types of weapons they use. Their general role is to counter conventional units such as battleships, tanks, and fighters. The 18m-tall MS-06 Zaku II's standard 120mm machinegun would be unwieldly if Zeon had kept mobile suits at their original size (the MS-01 Mobile Suit Prototype was only 10m tall, as were the MS-02 through MS-04, iirc).
But I digress, as the main purpose of mobile suits in Gundam is to take advantage of the physics of Minovsky particles. Such a configuration and size of mechs would be inherently inefficient in the modern real world (then again, Y. T. Minovsky technically won't be born for another 50 years... )
omegaLancer wrote:Problem of mech is that they tower over the battlefield, making them a target.. with guided weaponary and the shear destructive power of modern anti armor weapons it would be walking Tomb.
The lower the profile the better, the German even design their lastest battle tank with lifters to lower and rise the main chasis...
Well, as far as Mobile Suit Gundam is concerned, I believe size generally provides a sight advantage. Sinse radar is nullified, targeting relys purely on computer-aided visuals, s a higher vantage point to aim and shoot from is optimal.
That sounds nice but it's a double edged sword. So who has the advantage: the mech who can see 10-15 tanks at the same time, from which he can choose 1 or 2 to shoot at in his angle of vision, or the 100 tanks who can see and shoot the mech at the same time?
omegaLancer wrote:Problem of mech is that they tower over the battlefield, making them a target.. with guided weaponary and the shear destructive power of modern anti armor weapons it would be walking Tomb.
The lower the profile the better, the German even design their lastest battle tank with lifters to lower and rise the main chasis...
Well, as far as Mobile Suit Gundam is concerned, I believe size generally provides a sight advantage. Sinse radar is nullified, targeting relys purely on computer-aided visuals, s a higher vantage point to aim and shoot from is optimal. Combined with the lack of guided missiles and ground targeting for most non-mobile suit weapons (ever notice how some of the missile-launchers in the series have wires attached to the warheads? Wire-guided systems haven't been in use sinse the 1940's).
Tube launched Optically Wired-guided missiles. The Feds tried those against a Zaku in the first episode. Those missiles were fairly slow and they seemd to be engaging at close range. They managed to not damage the Zaku but instead, kill some important Earth Federation officers and to reveal that sacred book...
Mecha are completely useless. Theyre a waste of technology. look:
If a mecha must lift its armor, that means its motors must be powered constantly (barring locking mechanisms, see below). That means it needs a huge powersource. A tank, which sits on the ground and requires no power source, which means that a tanks armor can be significantly heavier compared to a mechs. The same goes for guns and power.
Now, assuming you have locking mechanisms, that means theres some metal thats capable of handling huge forces acting upon it with much ease. If this is so, a tank made of that material is even better then the tank described above.
Another thing is, if a mecha has a powersource dense enough to provide lift through motors/pistons in the legs, then that powersource could easilly be place in a helicopter which would be capable of traversing much terrain. Or in a hover tank. Remember, the ability for a heavy mecha to lift itself up using motors or pistons is and even great ability for it to life up using helicopter blades.
Any mecha can be outclassed by a tank or heli, simply because the technology used in the mecha have much more effect power when used in a tank or heli.
Also, when you fire on a mecha, its prone to falling over. XP
Sì! Abbiamo un' anima! Ma è fatta di tanti piccoli robot.
Well... in this case the Zaku ducked Tanks in the Gundam Universe always have to deal with Mobile Suits getting up close to them where they just can't compete. Plus the tanks rarely hit Mobile Suits without the element of surprise.
Mecha was just awful in all respects for combat. A myriad of factors combine to make nothing under several thousand tons survivable , and such a massive Mech would sink into the ground and be easily destroyed by truck fired anti ship missiles.
Power armor, or more likely a powered exoskeleton more on the lines of the real USAF bomb loader seen in Aliens then of say a Space Troop may become practical within a decade or so.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
quote=kojikun]If a mecha must lift its armor, that means its motors must be powered constantly (barring locking mechanisms, see below). That means it needs a huge powersource. A tank, which sits on the ground and requires no power source, which means that a tanks armor can be significantly heavier compared to a mechs. The same goes for guns and power. [/quote]
There are many types of joints which allow fast locking and unlocking as well as fast motion. The joint motors do not have to constantly be applying force. Consider also, that unless the mech is climbing or standing up, the vast majority of its leg motion will occur while the leg is off the ground and therefore has no load on it. Once the leg is placed back down, its joints can be locked and load will be transferred onto it. The mech does still need to "push off" of its back leg(s) to transfer its weight, but that is small compared to what you're talking about, especially once momentum comes into play.
[quote=kojikun]Now, assuming you have locking mechanisms, that means theres some metal thats capable of handling huge forces acting upon it with much ease. If this is so, a tank made of that material is even better then the tank described above. [/quote]
Not neccessarily. What if this material has a very high tensile strength, but is soft or brittle when bent, and therefore would not make good armor. In a support joint for a leg, it will likely only be subjected to one type of force (tensile, torsional, or bending *I forgot what it's called*), and such materials do exist. The material may also be very expensive or difficult to manufacture, so putting a relatively small ammount into a mech would be much cheaper than plating a tank with it.
[quote=kojikun]Another thing is, if a mecha has a powersource dense enough to provide lift through motors/pistons in the legs, then that powersource could easilly be place in a helicopter which would be capable of traversing much terrain. Or in a hover tank. Remember, the ability for a heavy mecha to lift itself up using motors or pistons is and even great ability for it to life up using helicopter blades. [/quote]
The problem with helicoptors and hovertanks is, they're either a fleeting presence or a dead lump on the ground. Allow me to explain. Helicopters and hovertanks would (we can assume) both require constant energy to remain aloft. If they are airborn, they can't stay in one spot for very long, because it burns fuel like a mofo. They tend to stay moving, and thus can patrol territory, but cannot occupy it. If they are on the ground with their blades/whataver powered down, then they are immobile. It takes several seconds at least for a helicoptor to spin up its blades, and we have no way of knowing how long a hovertank would take. During this time, neither can fight to full potential.
A mech on the other hand, is fully capable of standing in one spot with its engine ideling (low fuel consumption), and can still rapidly respond to a threat.
[quote=kojikun]Also, when you fire on a mecha, its prone to falling over. [/quote]
only if it's poorly designed. A well designed mech should have a low center of gravity and a wide stance to resist outside influences on its inertia. This covers gunfire, explosions, unstable terrain, collisions, etc. I believe Curtis Saxton did some calculations regarding the kinetic energy needed for a projectile to topple an AT-AT, but I don't have time to find the link now. It's worth reading, though.
Bob The Great wrote:off topic : does anyone know why my quoting doesn't work? It used to back a couple of months ago; am I just messing up the code and not seeing it?
It doesn’t work because you tags are wrong. In some you have forgotten to use the [/quote] end tag. Rather you have just repeated
In other cases you have used
kojikun wrote: You need to add " and " before and after the name your quoting, no spaces of course.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
Skimmer is right, mechs are not practical enough today. If they carry lots of weapons, they're too slow. If they are fast, not only are they lightly armored, but they would need bigger engines, and maintenance, and be unable to carry much more than a standard tank. Like kojikun said, if we had a power source capable of powering mechs, why not upgrade our other cehicles with it?
Then there's the matter of size. It is virtually impossible to use a mech from the hull-down position (unless you're talking Gundams). The materials is another problem also. What mech could bear the load of it s upper torso (which includes reactor, armaments, etc.) and arms and etc. on its legs? More cogently, what kind of amterials would it need to be made of? Metal fatigue would kill it faster than any bomb, shell or rocket, especially if you move at Gundam-type speeds.
Somebody already mentioned the power-suit troop and infantry heavy weapons platform idea, so I won't say too much, but barring some great leap in technology, these are the best way to incorporate mech-type technology into the military. For example, if we could build a flying platform (Not impossible - there is a commercially available frame which sports a rotor that enable its user to fly (albeit slowly) for about two hours, the XFS Solotrek) with twin M249 machineguns it could serve as very good urban fire support or function as a counter-insurgency weapon.
Believe in the sign of Hentai.
BotM - Hentai Tentacle Monkey/Warwolves - Evil-minded Medic/JL - Medical Jounin/Mecha Maniacs - Fuchikoma Grope Attack!/AYVB - Bloody Bastards.../GALE Force - Purveyor of Anal Justice/HAB - Combat Medical Orderly
Combat Medical Orderly(Also Nameless Test-tube Washer) : SD.Net Dept. of Biological Sciences
Darth Utsanomiko wrote:Well, as far as Mobile Suit Gundam is concerned, I believe size generally provides a sight advantage. Sinse radar is nullified, targeting relys purely on computer-aided visuals, s a higher vantage point to aim and shoot from is optimal. Combined with the lack of guided missiles and ground targeting for most non-mobile suit weapons (ever notice how some of the missile-launchers in the series have wires attached to the warheads? Wire-guided systems haven't been in use sinse the 1940's).
Actually a large portion of the antitank missiles current in service are wire guided.
Darth Utsanomiko wrote:Well, as far as Mobile Suit Gundam is concerned, I believe size generally provides a sight advantage. Sinse radar is nullified, targeting relys purely on computer-aided visuals, s a higher vantage point to aim and shoot from is optimal. Combined with the lack of guided missiles and ground targeting for most non-mobile suit weapons (ever notice how some of the missile-launchers in the series have wires attached to the warheads? Wire-guided systems haven't been in use sinse the 1940's).
Actually a large portion of the antitank missiles current in service are wire guided.
The vast majority actually. There where no ATGW's in service in the 1940's, and only a very few in the 50's. Recoilless rifles remained the standard through the mid 60's. Radio command guidance saw limited service in the 70's and 80's as did semi active laser, but until the 90's it was almost all wired guided.
However wired guided missiles are on their way out, at least in terms of production. The hundreds of thousands floating around the worlds arsenals wont be leaving anytime soon. Currently the trend is for fire and forget systems with EO trackers or at least semi active laser guidance. The Russians have the radar command guided AT-15 though with secondary semi active laser. Too bad each firing unit costs as much as an MBT.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
VF5SS wrote:Tube launched Optically Wired-guided missiles. The Feds tried those against a Zaku in the first episode. Those missiles were fairly slow and they seemd to be engaging at close range. They managed to not damage the Zaku but instead, kill some important Earth Federation officers and to reveal that sacred book...
TOW-style weapons also have the disadvantage of requiring the launch platform to remain stationary when firing and guiding. As Sea Skimmer noted, fire-and-forget is the current trend.
weemadando wrote:I think the most realistic mecha *ducks as Phong attacks* are the tanks found in Ghost in the Shell and Patlabor. Four or six legged, squat and packing a fairly hefty armament.
They're cool looking, but still aren't as good as conventional armor (and not realistic, really).
VF5SS wrote:Tube launched Optically Wired-guided missiles. The Feds tried those against a Zaku in the first episode. Those missiles were fairly slow and they seemd to be engaging at close range. They managed to not damage the Zaku but instead, kill some important Earth Federation officers and to reveal that sacred book...
TOW-style weapons also have the disadvantage of requiring the launch platform to remain stationary when firing and guiding. As Sea Skimmer noted, fire-and-forget is the current trend.
That seems to be why the Soviets went for radio command guidance in the AT-6, Hind's can't hover worth a damn.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
weemadando wrote:I think the most realistic mecha *ducks as Phong attacks* are the tanks found in Ghost in the Shell and Patlabor. Four or six legged, squat and packing a fairly hefty armament.
They're cool looking, but still aren't as good as conventional armor (and not realistic, really).
Like I said, they are the most realistic of the mecha though. An EVA would still be damn sweet however...
weemadando wrote:I think the most realistic mecha *ducks as Phong attacks* are the tanks found in Ghost in the Shell and Patlabor. Four or six legged, squat and packing a fairly hefty armament.
They're cool looking, but still aren't as good as conventional armor (and not realistic, really).
Like I said, they are the most realistic of the mecha though. An EVA would still be damn sweet however...
Well, yes, they are the most realistic. And yes, and EVA would be cool, especially if you could get the AT field working
)
Tanks in the Gundam Universe always have to deal with Mobile Suits getting up close to them where they just can't compete. Plus the tanks rarely hit Mobile Suits without the element of surprise.
