Reuters news story on plans for new Gaza house demolition.

[Nova Andromeda]

Reuters news story on plans for new Gaza house demolition.

Israel Threatens to Destroy Hundreds of Gaza Homes

By Jeffrey Heller
JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israel's top general threatened Sunday to destroy hundreds of Palestinian refugee homes after the Supreme Court cleared the way for demolitions in a flashpoint Israeli-held corridor on the Gaza-Egypt border.

Secretary of State Colin Powell said the United States opposed the destruction of homes in Rafah, adjacent to the "Philadelphi" buffer zone.

The United Nations says Israel has made more than 12,000 people homeless in Rafah since the start of a Palestinian uprising when peace talks failed in September 2000, and further demolitions would be in "grave breach" of international law.

"Hundreds of houses have been marked for destruction," a senior official quoted Israeli army chief Moshe Yaalon as telling the cabinet at its weekly meeting, without giving any timeframe for their demolition.

The court, in refusing to block the demolitions, appeared to set broad terms for bulldozing homes, saying the army could destroy houses for operational purposes or to protect soldiers.

The demolitions are likely to make thousands of Palestinians homeless. Dozens have already started to evacuate their homes in the camp after learning of the decision. "I don't know what to take. I will start with clothes or the refrigerator or the television," said Abed al-Majid Abu Shamala, 52, preparing to flee a four-story dwelling.

Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qurie accused the Israeli court ruling of permitting "ethnic cleansing crimes and collective punishment of innocent civilians." In a statement, he urged the international community to intervene.

At least 29 Palestinians, including militants and civilians, and 13 Israel soldiers were killed in fierce fighting in the Gaza Strip in the past week.

Seven soldiers died in or near the Rafah buffer area, which Israeli officials said would be widened to make it safer to patrol and less accessible to militants who smuggle weapons in by tunnel from Egypt.

Yaalon told the cabinet that houses picked for demolition were believed to be concealing tunnels or to have been used by gunmen attacking soldiers.

MORE THAN A THOUSAND HOMELESS
U.N. relief officials estimated that Israeli armored bulldozers leveled more than 80 buildings in Rafah in the past days, leaving about 1,100 Palestinians homeless. The army said it demolished structures that provided cover for armed men.

"We are extremely alarmed that even more demolitions are planned," said UNRWA chief Peter Hansen in a statement.

At a news conference in Jordan, Powell said Washington recognized an Israeli right to self-defense "but the kind of action they are taking in Rafah with the destruction of Palestinian homes we oppose."

Powell also rebuked President Yasser Arafat for urging Palestinians, in a speech Saturday, to "terrorise the enemy."

Arafat told reporters in the West Bank that demolitions carried out so far in Rafah were another example of Israel's "sinful aggression against our people and our land."

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon told his cabinet that Israel would not permit militants to attain weapons capabilities "which would threaten the heart of the nation even after our disengagement from Gaza."

Sharon also said Israel was in contact with Egypt to amend their peace treaty to allow Egypt to deploy more forces in Sinai and help secure its border with Gaza, an Israeli official said.

Some 120,000 Israelis rallied in Tel Aviv Saturday in support of Sharon's stalled Gaza plan to evacuate all Jewish settlements in Gaza and four in the West Bank, which senior officials said he would resubmit with minor alterations.

[Aaron]

It seems that Israel has learned nothing from the persecution of it's own people by the Nazi's in WWII. This is exactly the kind of treatment that they were subjected too. Do they think it makes it right to perpetuate this kind of abuse just because it happened to them.

I've always supported Israel's right to exist, but since they started trying to wipe out the Palestinians these last few years, I find myself disgusted. Personally I think that the world would be better off without Israel.

[Xenophobe3691]

It seems that Israel has learned nothing from the persecution of it's own people by the Nazi's in WWII. This is exactly the kind of treatment that they were subjected too. Do they think it makes it right to perpetuate this kind of abuse just because it happened to them.

I've always supported Israel's right to exist, but since they started trying to wipe out the Palestinians these last few years, I find myself disgusted. Personally I think that the world would be better off without Israel.

What's even funnier, is that normal Israelis don't back settler movements that passionately, it's the Ultraorthodox that wanna settle the crap out of the whole place. Oh, and which OS are you using? If it's XP, guess where most of it was designed?

[Tzeentch]

It seems that Israel has learned nothing from the persecution of it's own people by the Nazi's in WWII. This is exactly the kind of treatment that they were subjected too.Do they think it makes it right to perpetuate this kind of abuse just because it happened to them.

Oh wait, no it isn't. That accusation is hyperbole to the point of absurdity.

Do they think it makes it right to perpetuate this kind of abuse just because it happened to them.

I've always supported Israel's right to exist, but since they started trying to wipe out the Palestinians these last few years, I find myself disgusted. Personally I think that the world would be better off without Israel.

I'm not going to excuse them, but do you really think that the U.S. would be reacting any differently if a similar percentage of our citizens were killed in our borders every year? Also, I don't really see how this is any more of an attempt to wipe out the Palestinians than any of the other ugly incidents which dot Israeli history.

When you say the world would be better off without Israel's existance, what do you actually mean? You'd like it and all its inhabitants to fall into a pit? You'd like arab armies to crush it? You'd like it to dissolve into anarchy? What exactly is the positive effect you would expect from this?

[Aaron]

Oh wait, no it isn't. That accusation is hyperbole to the point of absurdity.

I'd respond to that but I have no idea what your talking about.

When you say the world would be better off without Israel's existance, what do you actually mean? You'd like it and all its inhabitants to fall into a pit? You'd like arab armies to crush it? You'd like it to dissolve into anarchy? What exactly is the positive effect you would expect from this?

I mean that I think that area would have been better off if Israel had never been formed. There certainly wouldn't have been four wars over it's existance. I think that the area would have been better of staying under British control, at least the palestinians wouldn't be persecuted. I expect that the area would be more stable as they didn't seem to have these problems on the scale that they do know when the Brits controled the area, and before the Jewish people started arriving in droves and displacing the indigenous population.

[Tzeentch]

I'd respond to that but I have no idea what your talking about.

Comparisons of Israeli treatment of Palestinians, specifically the bulldozing in the OP, to the Holocaust.

I mean that I think that area would have been better off if Israel had never been formed. There certainly wouldn't have been four wars over it's existance. I think that the area would have been better of staying under British control, at least the palestinians wouldn't be persecuted. I expect that the area would be more stable as they didn't seem to have these problems on the scale that they do know when the Brits controled the area, and before the Jewish people started arriving in droves and displacing the indigenous population.

I don't think that would have been any better. Jews started immigrating when it was still a British mandate, so there would have still been a sizeable population there. In fact, the situation would likely have been reversed. The Palestinians would have demanded their independance like the rest of the British colonies, probably started opressing the Jews, and had to contend with the Jewish terrorrist networks which existed prior to the formal creation of Israel. Not really much of a step forwards.

The only real way I can think of for this situation to have been diffused would be the creation of a Jewish state elsewhere.

[Darth Wong]

The only real way I can think of for this situation to have been diffused would be the creation of a Jewish state elsewhere.

Or maybe the Jews could have stopped demanding this medieval notion of a race-state. Plenty of Jews are getting along just fine in the US and other places.

In a world where races must live in ethnically defined states, what happens to interracial people, hmmm? Up shit creek? The goal of modern civilization should be to abolish the idea of a race-state, not to create new ones.

[Aaron]

Comparisons of Israeli treatment of Palestinians, specifically the bulldozing in the OP, to the Holocaust.

Given that the treatment of the Jews in Germany during WWII is well documented I believe my comparison is apt. The Israeli's drive the Palestinians from their homes and herd them into refugee camps. They also have no right to vote. These are the same conditions that the Jews in Germany faced, with the exception that the Israeli's don't seem to have an active extermination program is the only difference I see.

I don't think that would have been any better. Jews started immigrating when it was still a British mandate, so there would have still been a sizeable population there. In fact, the situation would likely have been reversed. The Palestinians would have demanded their independance like the rest of the British colonies, probably started opressing the Jews, and had to contend with the Jewish terrorrist networks which existed prior to the formal creation of Israel. Not really much of a step forwards.

The only real way I can think of for this situation to have been diffused would be the creation of a Jewish state elsewhere.

There may not have been any difference, it's hard to say whether the Palestinians would have been better. The Israeli's at the very least could have allowed the Palestinians some rights, they could have allowed them to keep their land, could have given them the right to vote. In short they could have made them full partners and citizens of Israel and not denizens. Israel didn't have to become a racist state, they chose to be.

[Darth Wong]

I'm not going to excuse them, but do you really think that the U.S. would be reacting any differently if a similar percentage of our citizens were killed in our borders every year?

If you had pushed those borders into somebody else's land, would you be all that surprised or outraged?

[Tzeentch]

The only real way I can think of for this situation to have been diffused would be the creation of a Jewish state elsewhere.

Or maybe the Jews could have stopped demanding this medieval notion of a race-state. Plenty of Jews are getting along just fine in the US and other places.

This is true, but it is worth remembering that Weimar Germany was considered among the most civilized nations in Europe, full of assimilated Jews who were doing 'getting along just fine.'

Remember the conference of Evian, where Hitler offered to ship the Jews to anyone who would take them before he really got down to business, but no one was interested?

Ethnic homelands are a tricky business, because while they offer a save haven against persecution, they also throw ethnic differences into relief. However, given that almost every ethnic group of any size (with the notable exception of the Kurds) has a homeland, it seems hypocritical to deny it to the group that arguably needs it the most.

Finally, note that more than half of Israel's population comes from Arab countries where Jews were expelled or induced to leave.

In a world where races must live in ethnically defined states, what happens to interracial people, hmmm? Up shit creek? The goal of modern civilization should be to abolish the idea of a race-state, not to create new ones.

I wouldn't mind if modern civilization abolished the idea of race altogether.

Note that I am not suggesting that the earth be parcelled up into little ethnocracies, but rather that I think that ideally large distinct ethnic groups should have a homeland which looks out for their interests, and to which they can flee to escape tyranny of the majority in other countries.

The ethnic conflicts that have sprung up around the world have mostly been the result of long centuries of mutual antagonism, something that doesn't really apply to interracial people.

Given that the treatment of the Jews in Germany during WWII is well documented I believe my comparison is apt. The Israeli's drive the Palestinians from their homes and herd them into refugee camps. They also have no right to vote. These are the same conditions that the Jews in Germany faced, with the exception that the Israeli's don't seem to have an active extermination program is the only difference I see.

1) refugee camps, while bad, =!= forced labor/death camps.

2) Israeli arabs do have the right to vote, though admittedly not those in outlying territories.

3) The interracial marriage laws (and other discriminatory laws), obviously despicable, are highly controversial in israel, and they do not form anything like the web of persecution in nazi germany.

4) I think not having an active extermination program is actually a pretty big difference, but that may just be me.

There may not have been any difference, it's hard to say whether the Palestinians would have been better. The Israeli's at the very least could have allowed the Palestinians some rights, they could have allowed them to keep their land, could have given them the right to vote. In short they could have made them full partners and citizens of Israel and not denizens. Israel didn't have to become a racist state, they chose to be.

1) I hold the other arab countries partially responsible for Palestinian flight from Israel.

2) Though Israeli arabs are discriminated against, this could be rectified without changing Israel's nature. I agree with you on this, and I'd like to think that Sharon will be replaced with someone a little saner.

3) the real rights problem is in the occupied territories, which Israel simply shouldn't possess. Now that there are actual settler cities there, I don't know what's going to happen, but if we're looking at Israel's founding, they shouldn't have taken them.

After some thought, I will concede that the Israeli's have definately mishandled their dealings with the palestinians, creating a lot of unnecessary violence and bad blood. However, there are certainly arab leaders who do not want a middle-eastern israel to exist at all, and I doubt that there could have been peace.

If you had pushed those borders into somebody else's land, would you be all that surprised or outraged?[/url]

We probably did worse to the Native Americans than the Israelis did to the Palestinians. The only reason we haven't had to deal with the consequences is because we crushed our predecessors so completely. If similar guerilla warfare tactics had been around back then, and we hadn't wiped out such a large percentage of the Native American population, we could have well been facing a similar threat.

And yeah. Attacks that target civilians are always going to outrage me, from any side, no matter how much that country's leaders or military may have it coming.

[Edi]

I'd respond to that but I have no idea what your talking about.

Comparisons of Israeli treatment of Palestinians, specifically the bulldozing in the OP, to the Holocaust.

Sorry, but comparison of Israel to the Nazi Germany of the 1930s is completely valid, because their behavior is not different at all. There aren't death camps in the occupied territories, but those territories can in themselves, especially with the construction of the new "security" fence, be classified as concentration camps. Note that concentration camp and extermination camp are conceptually different.

Edi

[Durandal]

When you say the world would be better off without Israel's existance, what do you actually mean? You'd like it and all its inhabitants to fall into a pit? You'd like arab armies to crush it? You'd like it to dissolve into anarchy? What exactly is the positive effect you would expect from this?

Non sequiter. Israel not existing as a race state does not imply that all Jews must be destroyed.

[Tzeentch]

When you say the world would be better off without Israel's existance, what do you actually mean? You'd like it and all its inhabitants to fall into a pit? You'd like arab armies to crush it? You'd like it to dissolve into anarchy? What exactly is the positive effect you would expect from this?

Non sequiter. Israel not existing as a race state does not imply that all Jews must be destroyed.

I was responding to this comment:

Personally I think that the world would be better off without Israel.

This statement has nothing to do with Israel as a race state, merely that he wishes that the whole place didn't exist. He later clarified that he meant he wished it had never been founded.

[GySgt. Hartman]

Just yesterday I saw a report on Israel, and it showed public opinion shifting. Many Israelis despise the radical settlers that hold their politics hostage. Many want to retreat from the occupied territories, but the settlers won't leave, and their tactic is to set up illegal settlements and then demand protection from the Israeli army. They are armed and will strongly oppose, maybe even to the point of violence, their removal from the settlements. As alawys, it is not the Israelis or the Jews that are the problem, but the radical fundies.

[Ace Pace]

Hartman, wondered when this would reach surveys, since this has been going on for a long time, fundies might still cry, but opinion is shifting, as shown by allowing extreamly seculer parties into the goverment.

[wautd]

Israël again shows it isnt interested in peace.

And what buggs me the most, europe again says its against it but doesnt take real actions

[Tribun]

Israël again shows it isnt interested in peace.

And what buggs me the most, europe again says its against it but doesnt take real actions

Easy, because Israel would accuse anyone who is really against thie policies, that this someone hates Jews in general, and that this someone is antisemitic.
It is thier standard attack that sadly still works.

[wautd]

Israël again shows it isnt interested in peace.

And what buggs me the most, europe again says its against it but doesnt take real actions

Easy, because Israel would accuse anyone who is really against thie policies, that this someone hates Jews in general, and that this someone is antisemitic.
It is thier standard attack that sadly still works.

I know, still buggs me tough

[wautd]

Hey maybe they find a tunnel leading to Iraq and that Saddam used to smuggle out all his WMD's