Artillery Shell with Sarin Found in Iraq (saw on Fox)

[jegs2]

To assume from the finding of a single old chemical weapon relic that Saddam had a far reaching WMD program like the Bush administration claimed is absurd. If he had, we would have found stockpiles of stuff in much better shape than this long ago.

That is a bold assumption. It is possible that the chemical weapons were buried in order to be later dug up and used once the Coalition forces were driven out or just up and left. It's a big desert, and there are a lot of places to hide the stuff, not to mention that some may have been moved to Syria. Saddam was no fool, so he would not have hidden chemical weapons where US soldiers are likely to search.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Or since Saddam, a criminal no matter what, had nothing to lose and would have used his deadily weapons of mass destruction stockpiles to try and slow our advance if they existed.

[Master of Ossus]

To assume from the finding of a single old chemical weapon relic that Saddam had a far reaching WMD program like the Bush administration claimed is absurd. If he had, we would have found stockpiles of stuff in much better shape than this long ago.

That is a bold assumption. It is possible that the chemical weapons were buried in order to be later dug up and used once the Coalition forces were driven out or just up and left. It's a big desert, and there are a lot of places to hide the stuff, not to mention that some may have been moved to Syria. Saddam was no fool, so he would not have hidden chemical weapons where US soldiers are likely to search.

In which case the weapons could not have been readied for war almost immediately, as was claimed.

[jegs2]

In which case the weapons could not have been readied for war almost immediately, as was claimed.

When was the statement made, and then how much time elapsed between that time and the invasion?

[Patrick Degan]

To assume from the finding of a single old chemical weapon relic that Saddam had a far reaching WMD program like the Bush administration claimed is absurd. If he had, we would have found stockpiles of stuff in much better shape than this long ago.

That is a bold assumption. It is possible that the chemical weapons were buried in order to be later dug up and used once the Coalition forces were driven out or just up and left. It's a big desert, and there are a lot of places to hide the stuff, not to mention that some may have been moved to Syria. Saddam was no fool, so he would not have hidden chemical weapons where US soldiers are likely to search.

Oh, puhLEEZE! Sarin has a shelf-life of only three months, and that's assuming its storage under proper conditions. And I think we've had quite enough of the "WMDs moved to Syria" myth to the point that it won't even get a laugh anymore.

Saddam may not have been a fool, but he wasn't Ernst Stavro Blofeld either. It's become quite apparent that Saddam's main activity in the last years of his reign was to transfer as much of Iraq's cash to his personal bank accounts as he could manage before the day he'd have to leave office came. It's also become more than obvious that the vast alledged WMD arsenal simply did not exist.

[jegs2]

Oh, puhLEEZE! Sarin has a shelf-life of only three months, and that's assuming its storage under proper conditions. And I think we've had quite enough of the "WMDs moved to Syria" myth to the point that it won't even get a laugh anymore.

Which is why the weapons are designed as binary weapons, vice pure chemical weapons. Binary weapons have a much longer shelf life. What reason do we have to believe that some of the weapons were not moved to Syria?

Saddam may not have been a fool, but he wasn't Ernst Stavro Blofeld either. It's become quite apparent that Saddam's main activity in the last years of his reign was to transfer as much of Iraq's cash to his personal bank accounts as he could manage before the day he'd have to leave office came. It's also become more than obvious that the vast alledged WMD arsenal simply did not exist.

I don't think it has become so apparent, and I believe current events are starting to bear such out. Moreover, I believe there is much more to come, but time will tell.

[KrauserKrauser]

I hope that these weapons and any like them found in the future come to harm our troops over there. These may be just the first of a stockpile that the insurgents have found. If so, well I just hope no Americans get killed because of them.

[Patrick Degan]

Oh, puhLEEZE! Sarin has a shelf-life of only three months, and that's assuming its storage under proper conditions. And I think we've had quite enough of the "WMDs moved to Syria" myth to the point that it won't even get a laugh anymore.

Which is why the weapons are designed as binary weapons, vice pure chemical weapons. Binary weapons have a much longer shelf life. What reason do we have to believe that some of the weapons were not moved to Syria?

Doesn't matter; twelve years is beyond the viable storage period. And we have zero evidence of weapons being moved to Syria; nevermind just how ludicrous the notion that any dictator would trust the storage of any part of his arsenal to a potential rival actually is.

Saddam may not have been a fool, but he wasn't Ernst Stavro Blofeld either. It's become quite apparent that Saddam's main activity in the last years of his reign was to transfer as much of Iraq's cash to his personal bank accounts as he could manage before the day he'd have to leave office came. It's also become more than obvious that the vast alledged WMD arsenal simply did not exist.

I don't think it has become so apparent, and I believe current events are starting to bear such out. Moreover, I believe there is much more to come, but time will tell.

Current events have nothing to do with Saddam Hussein. Any Ba'athists in the present fight are in this for their own shot at power in post-occupation Iraq, but they are only part of what is developing into a general nationalist uprising against all foreign forces in the country.

And you may believe whatever you wish. But belief without evidence to back it is worthless —a lesson Comical Axi still hasn't grasped as yet or any of the remaining defenders of a clearly failed policy for that matter.

[jegs2]

Patrick Degan, I hope you are correct, but based on what I know I fear you're not.

[TrailerParkJawa]

It does not surprise me that a chemical shell shows up at some point. From the sound of the story I don't think the guys that set up the IED realized they had a chemical round.

Overall, I think the big impact this will have is to make the troops in Iraq much more nervous about IED's since now there is the possibility the next one could be chemical.

[Howedar]

Patrick Degan, I hope you are correct, but based on what I know I fear you're not.

Jegs2, based on what I've seen in this thread I fear you do not understand why extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

[Vympel]

It does fit the definition, since it is a chemical round. The question becomes where did the insurgents obtain the round, and are there more where that one came from?

Since when do all chemical munitions necessarily fit the category of weapons of mass destruction? It's a purely political moniker used to combine the three, very different threats of NBC weapons into one boogeyman (with nuclear connotations)- purely a political perception ploy.

[Vympel]

Patrick Degan, I hope you are correct, but based on what I know I fear you're not.

About what? About weapon shelf-life? What exactly do you know? Iraq's capabilities in producing Sarin were well known and cataloged by UNSCOM and UNMOVIC- the CIA's assessments are on the record and concur.

[jegs2]

About what? About weapon shelf-life? What exactly do you know?

I was an Army chemical officer for four years and have been an intelligence officer for nearly a decade. That is all I will say.

Iraq's capabilities in producing Sarin were well known and cataloged by UNSCOM and UNMOVIC- the CIA's assessments are on the record and concur.

Iraq did produce Sarin in the form of binary weapons, which do not officially fit the definition of a chemical weapon. Currently do not give a lot of credibility to the CIA, sorry.

[Vympel]

Iraq did produce Sarin in the form of binary weapons, which do not officially fit the definition of a chemical weapon. Currently do not give a lot of credibility to the CIA, sorry.

Niether do I- currently- but this was a decade ago that they reported this. Also, UNSCOM noted the existence of binary sarin type munitions, I think it was 1995. They didn't overlook this. Iraq's sarin agents are according to two (or three, if you count UNMOVIC's 2003 follow-up), crap.

[jegs2]

Iraq's sarin agents are according to two (or three, if you count UNMOVIC's 2003 follow-up), crap.

...and that is the part I am hoping to be true.

[Currald]

Doesn't sarin have an easily-administered antidote? How effective is it as a weapon, anyway?

[jegs2]

Doesn't sarin have an easily-administered antidote? How effective is it as a weapon, anyway?

The antidote increases one's heartbeat to a frantic pace and isn't terribly good for your long-term health, but it does work.

[MKSheppard]

nevermind just how ludicrous the notion that any dictator would trust the storage of any part of his arsenal to a potential rival actually is.

Erm, then why did the Iraqi Air Force fly to Iran during 1991?

[MKSheppard]

Oh yes, Syria is the only other country in the region controlled by the Ba'ath party.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Why, surprise, Sheppard still doesn't know what the Burden of Proof is.

Rather, like a tinfoiler he makes vague, flawed insinuations that it could be plausible with precisely zippo evidence to warrant any of it.

Nice try though. We should give your a prize for effort.

[LordShaithis]

In the year 2006, when we all live under the iron fist of glorious Fuehrer Bush...

SD.netters: Bah, that nuclear bomb they found in Iraq was crap! Bet it would barely explode!

[/i]

[Howedar]

Why, surprise, Sheppard still doesn't know what the Burden of Proof is.

Rather, like a tinfoiler he makes vague, flawed insinuations that it could be plausible with precisely zippo evidence to warrant any of it.

Nice try though. We should give your a prize for effort.

Given the use of smilies, one might surmise he is kidding.

[Patrick Degan]

nevermind just how ludicrous the notion that any dictator would trust the storage of any part of his arsenal to a potential rival actually is.

Erm, then why did the Iraqi Air Force fly to Iran during 1991?

And what happened? Iran confiscated Saddam's air force. Yeah, brilliant move, that.

[MKSheppard]

Yep, it's sarin.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u ... aq_sarin_2

WASHINGTON - Comprehensive testing has confirmed the presence of the chemical weapon sarin in the remains of a roadside bomb discovered this month in Baghdad, a defense official said Tuesday.

The determination, made by a laboratory in the United States that the official would not identify, verifies what earlier, less-thorough field tests had found: the bomb was made from an artillery shell designed to disperse the deadly nerve agent on the battlefield.

The origin of the shell remains unclear, and finding that out is a priority for the U.S. military, the defense official said, speaking on the condition of anonymity.

Some analysts worry the 155-millimeter artillery shell, found rigged as a bomb on May 15, may be part of a larger stockpile of Iraqi chemical weapons that insurgents can now use. But no more have turned up, and several military officials have said the shell may have been an older one that predated the 1991 Gulf War (news - web sites).

It likewise is not known whether the bombers knew they had a chemical weapon. Military officials have said the shell bore no labels to indicate it was anything except a normal explosive shell, the type used to make scores of roadside bombs in Iraq (news - web sites).

No one was injured in the shell's initial detonation, but two American soldiers who removed the round had symptoms of low-level nerve agent exposure, officials said last week.

The shell was a binary type, which has two chambers containing relatively safe chemicals. When the round is fired from an artillery gun, its rotation mixes the chemicals to create sarin, which is supposed to disperse when the shell strikes its target.

Since it was not fired from a gun but was detonated as a bomb, the initial explosion on May 15 dispersed the precursor chemicals, apparently mixing them in only small amounts, officials said then. In battle, such shells would have to be fired in great numbers to effect a large body of troops.

Iraq's first field-test of a binary-type shell containing sarin was in 1988, U.S. defense officials have said.

Saddam's government only disclosed the testing and production after Iraqi weapons chief Lt. Gen. Hussein Kamel al-Majid, Saddam's son-in-law, defected in 1995. Saddam's government never declared any sarin or shells filled with sarin remained.

Saddam's alleged stockpile of weapons of mass destruction was the Bush administration's chief stated reason for invading Iraq. U.S. weapons hunters have been unable to validate the prewar intelligence.

Some trace elements of mustard agent, an older type of chemical weapon, were detected in an artillery shell found in a Baghdad street this month, U.S. officials said previously. The shell also was believed to be from one of Saddam's old stockpiles.