Grand Admiral Thompson, explain the following:

Sothis · Post by **Sothis** » 2004-05-16 02:39pm

Ok Thompson, we have this, Federation firepower:

'Skin of Evil', Season One of TNG: A torpedo is fired at a planet-bound shuttle- there is a small and brief fireball, that would amount to a few megatons at most.

'Pegasus', Season Seven of TNG: An asteroid a few KM in diametre would require a majority of the Enterprise's torpedoes to destroy it. Assuming 200 torpedoes, and assuming a majority of those torpedoes to mean 101.. well, going from memory, the asteroid was 3KM 'thick', and we'll give it a diametre of 10KM (even though I think that's over-generous).

It takes 1 megaton to fragment a 10KM asteroid. If Federation ships are as powerful as some say, the asteroid would not only be shattered, but vapourised! Yet, Riker specifically said that it would take most of their torpedoes to destroy this asteroid. It takes 1 ton of TNT to destroy 10M worth of asteroid. Assuming 100 torpedoes, that means torpedoes fall into the kiloton range!

'The Die is Cast', DS9, Season Three: a fleet of Romulan and Cardassian ships (around 30 ships, if memory serves me), attack the Founder's homeworld, with the aim of destroying the surface. The Romulan officer claims 30% of the surface destroyed in the opening salvo, yet the screen shots of said salvo reveal NONE of the fireballs or surface damage we'd expect from such powerful weapons. Not to mention that if Trek races were as powerful as some say, we should have seen FAR GREATER damage than that 30% figure anyway!

Star Trek: Nemesis: A (relatively) low-speed impact between the Enterprise is able to penetrate the shields of the mighty Reman Scimitar (shields which were at 70%, i might add). If the multi-gigaton weaponry some claim the Federation has actually exists, why would a low-speed impact bring down the Scimitar's shields, when the weaponry could not?

Information about the Empire:

1. Size: as a galactic civilisation, the Empire is spread out across
nearly a whole galaxy. From this, we can infer a few things that
grant the Empire an advantage, even before we start to work out
energy and power levels.

To control a galaxy, you must have a means of getting ships and
troops from A to B quickly. Warp drive is too slow to do this- a 75
year trip across the galaxy at maximum speed to get a fleet into
position is pointless. Clearly the Empire has a means of FTL that is
very fast, to enable it to move fleets about quickly into
battlezones. Without this, the Empire would not exist.

Also, to control something as large as a galaxy, you would also need
a lot of ships and troops. Remember, the Empire rules over trillions-
you have to be able to have patrols constantly about to maintain
that rule. For a galaxy, you'd need hundreds of thousands of ships
at LEAST, and more likely, millions of ships to do the job.

To build and maintain a large fleet, you need a large and advanced
industry. You need metal processing plants, ore refineries, mining
facilities, shipyards... the Empire MUST have these if it is to look
after and build the ships that control a galaxy.

Now please explain in the light of such info how in the world the Federation could beat the Empire?

Jaepheth · Post by **Jaepheth** » 2004-05-16 10:01pm

A semi-off topic question.

Does this forum have a "Do not feed the trolls" policy?

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2004-05-16 10:52pm

Jaepheth wrote:A semi-off topic question.

Does this forum have a "Do not feed the trolls" policy?

Not really... no.

We enjoy watching trolls, it's fun...

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2004-05-16 11:40pm

Jaepheth wrote:A semi-off topic question.

Does this forum have a "Do not feed the trolls" policy?

Yes and No. It depends on the moods of the cranky moderators ... kinda sucks for the rest of you hah?

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2004-05-17 03:29am

It takes one gigaton to fragment a 10 km asteroid, not 1 megaton (1 megaton to fragment a 1 km asteroid)

Sothis · Post by **Sothis** » 2004-05-17 03:39am

Ack, my bad with the numbers

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2004-05-17 01:18pm

Sothis wrote:Ack, my bad with the numbers

Heh...such things happen

We all know things like that (or the fact that the Romulan-Cardassian fleet actually numbered--gasp!--twenty ships!) doesn't change your conclusions, though. All the Trekkie could do is nitpick, nitpick then nitpick some more.

After recent talking about something similar with a friend and colleague, a few more relevant examples are fresh in my mind. Add them to your list if you like

1--"Deja Q" suggests the Enterprise-D might generate 30,000 TW at most (see Mike's ever-useful Canon Database for specifics).

Combined with the fact that the ship's power generation is supposed to yield more than "phasers and photon torpedoes can ever provide" (LaForge, "BOBW pt. I"), "Deja Q" also gives us an upper-limit on torpedo yields.

Even if we were exceptionally generous and assumed Geordi's "BOBW" statement referred to the most firepower E-D could bring to bear in a short period (a spread of 6 photorps plus some phaser blasts), photorps still shouldn't yield more than a couple of megatons apiece.

2--Where were Trekkies' super-torpedoes in episodes like "Rise"? My most generous estimates of that asteroid's size were well short of RSA's, and the thing was only shattered. (An argument can be made that even that's misleading, as Mike Blackburn could attest.) Megaton-range yields definitely aren't necessary there.

How about "Genesis"? The rocks pulverized in that episode were probably smaller than those we saw totally vaporized by some of an ISD's light guns in TESB.

3--Why aren't starships totally obliterated by such super-torps?

Their hulls aren't that tough; remember how Spock said a fighter plane carrying tiny nukes could "damage" them, "possibly beyond [their] ability to repair under the circumstances"? How could the hull be damaged by something if it was thousands or more times weaker than Trek weapons?

4--What about Trek shields' resistance to solar EM?

"Relics" indicates a GCS's total shield capacity, which might be significantly greater than what they can handle at one time, is equal to a couple dozen megatons. Since a GCS can probably withstand multiple torpedo hits, the effective yield of those devices are, again, no more than a few megatons.

Etc., etc.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2004-05-17 10:15pm

Sean, WRT Rise, it was either you or Ted who pointed out another Voyager episode where they fire torpedos are a ship right above a city and we see them right before they impact. This scene disproves the torpdo glow growing idea. Can you recall the episode name, orwas it Ted who hammered fuckstick with that one?

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2004-05-18 04:42am

Their hulls aren't that tough; remember how Spock said a fighter plane carrying tiny nukes could "damage" them, "possibly beyond [their] ability to repair under the circumstances"?

First, they were already damaged, and second, they were in the atmosphere, where nuclear blast effects really come into play.

How could the hull be damaged by something if it was thousands or more times weaker than Trek weapons

The protective ability of Federation shield technology may be far greater than the protective ability of Federation armor technology, so Starfleet designers may have chosen to invest the mass normally assumed by heavy armor plating in more powerful shield generators instead.

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2004-05-18 02:28pm

Ender wrote:Sean, WRT Rise, it was either you or Ted who pointed out another Voyager episode where they fire torpedos are a ship right above a city and we see them right before they impact. This scene disproves the torpdo glow growing idea. Can you recall the episode name, orwas it Ted who hammered fuckstick with that one?

I'm 99% sure that was me. I remember talking about that.

I can't remember the episode's name off-hand, but it introduced the Trabe. "Alliances" maybe?

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2004-05-18 02:58pm

Uraniun235 wrote: First, they were already damaged, and second, they were in the atmosphere, where nuclear blast effects really come into play.

True, true.

Mind you, I wasn't out to say Federation hulls are ridiculously weak. My concern is, if a fellow like Mr. Thompson assumes photorps yield in the high megaton range (or more), he'd better be ready to explain why low kT-ranged missiles could have any effect on even unshielded ships.

The protective ability of Federation shield technology may be far greater than the protective ability of Federation armor technology, so Starfleet designers may have chosen to invest the mass normally assumed by heavy armor plating in more powerful shield generators instead.

Agreed.

Sothis · Post by **Sothis** » 2004-05-18 03:00pm

I am disappointed this far, that Thompson has ignored this thread.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-05-18 05:19pm

seanrobertson wrote:
Sothis wrote:Ack, my bad with the numbers
4--What about Trek shields' resistance to solar EM?

"Relics" indicates a GCS's total shield capacity, which might be significantly greater than what they can handle at one time, is equal to a couple dozen megatons. Since a GCS can probably withstand multiple torpedo hits, the effective yield of those devices are, again, no more than a few megatons.

Etc., etc.

Not completely correct.

In TNG, shield power varied alot, but was often notoriously weak. When the Enterprise-D was trapped inside an asteroid in "The Pegasus" (I think that was the episode) thanks to a Romulan Warbird, they said they could not fire a photon torpedo to open a hole in the asteroid because the torpedoes' explosion would destroy the ship.

I've seen a couple other instances where they've implied that a torpedo or two could destroy the Enterprise in TNG.

Then I've seen a couple episodes where they could withstand a million hits, lol. By the time we hit DS9, Fed ships could take a good dozen or more photon hits...perhaps they increased shield power between TNG and DS9.

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2004-05-18 06:25pm

Praxis wrote: Not completely correct.

In TNG, shield power varied alot, but was often notoriously weak. When the Enterprise-D was trapped inside an asteroid in "The Pegasus" (I think that was the episode) thanks to a Romulan Warbird, they said they could not fire a photon torpedo to open a hole in the asteroid because the torpedoes' explosion would destroy the ship.

Eh...no.

They said they couldn't use phasers to cut their way out, lest the rock collapse on them. Torpedoes had nothing to do with it:

WORF: We could use the phasers to cut our way out.

DATA: The asteroid's internal structure is highly unstable. Any attempt to cut through the rock could cause the entire chasm to collapse.

I've seen a couple other instances where they've implied that a torpedo or two could destroy the Enterprise in TNG.

Yes, when they're unshielded ("Q Who?", "The Nth Degree"). Big difference.

The only episode that said ANYTHING remotely like what you're suggesting is "Samaritan Snare"...

RIKER
Did you disable [the photon torpedoes you built for the Pakleds]?

GEORDI
Just in time. That's why you're
all standing here...

Needless to say, a nebulous statement like that is useless.

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2004-05-19 11:36am

Sothis wrote:I am disappointed this far, that Thompson has ignored this thread.

Me, too, but I'm not surprised. RSA's site doesn't have a page that addresses your post point by point, so Mr. Thompson has no ready-made material to cop...err, I mean, legs to stand on.

(Whew! I almost shed light on the little known fact that Thompson is--gasps aplenty!--parroting RSA's work!

I'm glad I didn't spoil that for everyone!

)

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2004-05-19 08:01pm

seanrobertson wrote:(Whew! I almost shed light on the little known fact that Thompson is--gasps aplenty!--parroting RSA's work!

What an amazing idea! We've never seen anything like that before!

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-05-19 08:30pm

YT300000 wrote:
seanrobertson wrote:(Whew! I almost shed light on the little known fact that Thompson is--gasps aplenty!--parroting RSA's work!
What an amazing idea! We've never seen anything like that before!

And here's another one

DON'T VULTURE

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-05-19 10:51pm

seanrobertson wrote:(Whew! I almost shed light on the little known fact that Thompson is--gasps aplenty!--parroting RSA's work!

Calling it "work" might be a little generous

Ma Deuce · Post by **Ma Deuce** » 2004-05-20 01:00pm

erm... was there ever any doubt that FAT is one of RSA's acolytes? DarkStar's bullshit has a very recognizable smell (yes, I've read his crappy site, painful as it was to do so).

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-05-20 01:41pm

Ma Deuce wrote:erm... was there ever any doubt that FAT is one of RSA's acolytes? DarkStar's bullshit has a very recognizable smell (yes, I've read his crappy site, painful as it was to do so).

Of course Darkstar has a following. Virtually any idea can gather a following on the Internet. The interesting part, however, is the calibre of the people who follow him: they're invariably morons and always make fools of themselves when they try to sally forth onto the field of flamewar with their flimsy RSA-armour in place.

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2004-05-20 05:24pm

Howedar wrote:
seanrobertson wrote:(Whew! I almost shed light on the little known fact that Thompson is--gasps aplenty!--parroting RSA's work!
Calling it "work" might be a little generous

I thought someone might point out my error

On a serious note, I'd like to add something to Sothis' list. In some of his HoS posts, Thompson's crowing about how an asteroid destroyed in "Cost of Living" is indicative of very impressive torpedo yields.

Great--I'm all ears. How's about you give us some figures based on that scene, T?

Since I'm a nice guy, here's a friendly reminder: dredging up one old vidcap that shows a smattering of debris near Enterprise is not enough evidence to back your claim. Try harder than that.

P.S.--Ma Deuce: My sense of humor must be rustier than I thought. I was kidding, dude