I might have to vote for John Kerry...

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-05-21 05:07pm

Howedar wrote:
fgalkin wrote:And, Gil, its slave labor because you don't get paid for it.
Next time I'll fucking spell it out for you in twenty foot high red letters. Volunteers don't get paid either.

prawn put it nicely. how is it voluntary when it's something you're required to do in order to graduate?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-05-21 05:07pm

Its quite fucking obvious there's a difference between slave labor and required and unpaid community service.

You're turning in service in exchange (in combination with competence in basic classes) for a high school education diploma. That said, I don't think it should be an across-the-board graduation requirement.

I think its good as part of benefits and options one can choose from in high school. I myself, in the IB Diploma Programme, must complete 150 hours of community service in order to recieve the diploma (assuming I pass my IB exams next May). So, as magnet programs and scholarship requirements, I don't see why not.

FettKyle · Post by **FettKyle** » 2004-05-21 05:08pm

Schools require students to do alot of things to graduate. I suppose the Phys Ed requirement is slave labor too? Maybe making students pass math is slave labor

EHH HMM How is Phys Ed a service to the community. Manadatory service is involeentary seritude which is slave labor which is against the 13 th adamenmant if I remeber correctly. (Thank you Civics class) So your loose definition is a not crediable.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-05-21 05:09pm

fgalkin wrote:
Howedar wrote:
fgalkin wrote:And, Gil, its slave labor because you don't get paid for it.
Next time I'll fucking spell it out for you in twenty foot high red letters. Volunteers don't get paid either.
Let me spell it out for you, too. Volunteers do it voluntarily.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Perhaps you shall be more clear in the future.

Darth_Zod wrote:prawn put it nicely. how is it voluntary when it's something you're required to do in order to graduate?

Congratulations on your complete inability to grasp what I was saying.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-05-21 05:09pm

Kerry will also put forward a plan to make the U.S. energy independent of Middle East oil in ten years—and create 500,000 jobs by investing in energy renewable sources, such as ethanol, solar, and wind.

Anyone who thinks solar and wind will even put a dent in anything is out of their mind; and ethanol is a fucking fraud. Nice to see Kerry's going to continue the national passtime of sucking corn farmer cock.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-05-21 05:11pm

Eventually, John Kerry believes that we can build a truly clean and secure economy based on hydrogen -- a clean fuel that we can eventually get entirely from renewable sources from our farms, the wind, solar energy, hydropower and geothermal sources.

He's out of his mind. I love the complete and total impossibilities currently listed. If he wants all that hydrogen, he'll have to go France/Japan with Breeder reactors and such. Ethanol BS and sun/wind/dams aren't going to cut it.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2004-05-21 05:13pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:.

I think its good as part of benefits and options one can choose from in high school. I myself, in the IB Diploma Programme, must complete 150 hours of community service in order to recieve the diploma (assuming I pass my IB exams next May). So, as magnet programs and scholarship requirements, I don't see why not.

I have no objection to that, as well as the whole service-for-tuition thing, because you have achoice whether or not you will participate. You are volunteering. But you are required by law to attend high school, and by having community service as a requirement for graduation, you are giving the students no choice.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Sam Or I · Post by **Sam Or I** » 2004-05-21 05:15pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Eventually, John Kerry believes that we can build a truly clean and secure economy based on hydrogen -- a clean fuel that we can eventually get entirely from renewable sources from our farms, the wind, solar energy, hydropower and geothermal sources.

He's out of his mind. I love the complete and total impossibilities currently listed. If he wants all that hydrogen, he'll have to go France/Japan with Breeder reactors and such. Ethanol BS and sun/wind/dams aren't going to cut it.

Iceland is trying to be the first hydrogen economy, with geo thermal. (Saw it on PBS)

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-05-21 05:17pm

fgalkin wrote:I have no objection to that, as well as the whole service-for-tuition thing, because you have achoice whether or not you will participate. You are volunteering. But you are required by law to attend high school, and by having community service as a requirement for graduation, you are giving the students no choice.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

You are not required by law to graduate high school, nor are you required to attend past the age of (IIRC) 16.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-05-21 05:21pm

fgalkin wrote:I have no objection to that, as well as the whole service-for-tuition thing, because you have achoice whether or not you will participate. You are volunteering. But you are required by law to attend high school, and by having community service as a requirement for graduation, you are giving the students no choice.

What the hell difference does it make? You're required to throw seven hours a day away at school. What if they made a class called "community outreach" or some PC BS and you were graded on your participation and competence and you left school and went to help at charities and whatnot.

You're already mandated to be there and put in time and effort in class, so what's the special difference in putting in time for community service? By your definition there's no difference between my AP Calculus class and slavery...I mean there are professions where you do math for pay, and I don't get paid...moreover I must do it. Is it slavery? Come on.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2004-05-21 05:25pm

He's out of his mind. I love the complete and total impossibilities currently listed. If he wants all that hydrogen, he'll have to go France/Japan with Breeder reactors and such. Ethanol BS and sun/wind/dams aren't going to cut it.

Why do politicians, when discussing alternate energy sources, never bring up FUCKING NUCLEAR POWER?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-05-21 05:26pm

HemlockGrey wrote:
He's out of his mind. I love the complete and total impossibilities currently listed. If he wants all that hydrogen, he'll have to go France/Japan with Breeder reactors and such. Ethanol BS and sun/wind/dams aren't going to cut it.

Why do politicians, when discussing alternate energy sources, never bring up FUCKING NUCLEAR POWER?

Don't tell me you're this naive. Nuclear power has been demonized since it's inception.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-05-21 05:28pm

Its disgusting; pure politics blocking perhaps the only sensible path out of this mess and one already followed and demonstrably viable abroad.

Un-fucking-believable.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-05-21 05:35pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:Plus, I like the idea of college money for community service. That would be nice.

We're already doing that here. The upside is that a lot of these kids gain experiences that they would not otherwise have. The downside is that a lot of them just go through the motions, so you end up with kids volunteering to coach soccer but doing a horrible, surly job of it.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-05-21 05:44pm

That's why there should be quality evaluation. Whoever is marking down hours needs to assess whether the kid was an asshole or not. We don't send kids to classes without them getting graded on performance, so why send kids to service without checking to see that they're really participating?

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-05-21 05:47pm

Darth Wong wrote:We're already doing that here. The upside is that a lot of these kids gain experiences that they would not otherwise have. The downside is that a lot of them just go through the motions, so you end up with kids volunteering to coach soccer but doing a horrible, surly job of it.

We've got a program called AmeriCorp, which basically involves a year of service (working in disaster areas, working with communities and youth centers, environmental clean-ups, et cetera) for several thousand dollars toward college. I was thinking of a longer version of that would be a good idea.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-05-21 05:50pm

Thinkmarble wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote: Think so? After what happened when Europe from their socialized school system, I have serious doubts about the feasability and effectiveness of this program.
Could you explain what you mean with "socialized school system" ?

Anytime you have the state paying for a college education, that moves towards a socialized system. Granted, there are limited instances in which such a system has been successful, but over time those systems have always broken down. The situation in Europe, right now, is particularly appalling.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-05-21 05:53pm

Master of Ossus wrote:Anytime you have the state paying for a college education, that moves towards a socialized system. Granted, there are limited instances in which such a system has been successful, but over time those systems have always broken down. The situation in Europe, right now, is particularly appalling.

Yes, but treating that as an all-together bad thing is overgeneralisation.

Merit-based scholarship programs whether private or government-sponsored I do not think is a harmful proposition.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-05-21 05:54pm

Master of Ossus wrote:Anytime you have the state paying for a college education, that moves towards a socialized system. Granted, there are limited instances in which such a system has been successful, but over time those systems have always broken down. The situation in Europe, right now, is particularly appalling.

You can get several thousand dollars straight from the taxpayers pockets to your college education via the state for military service. Same with AmeriCorp and PeaceCorp. Is that socialism?

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-05-21 06:16pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:You're already mandated to be there and put in time and effort in class, so what's the special difference in putting in time for community service?

Because seven hours a day is enough for me, fuck this shit, I'm going home, not staying on to spend two hours working a desk at the "Special" Olympics because the lawmakers think its good "moral fiber" for us to
be slaves.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-05-21 06:30pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:That's why there should be quality evaluation. Whoever is marking down hours needs to assess whether the kid was an asshole or not. We don't send kids to classes without them getting graded on performance, so why send kids to service without checking to see that they're really participating?

You make me go do something above and beyond that is billed as
being "volunteer" but really is only voluntary in that you pick the poison
you'll be sucking down for the goddamn hippie scum to say "See! Our
kids are learning moral values and helping the poor downtrodden", and
I expect to be FUCKING PAID. No cash for it, fuck this, I'm going in the
bathroom to read comics.

The Aliens · Post by **The Aliens** » 2004-05-21 06:50pm

I currently have to do 40 hours of Community Service to graduate, and I'm not having problems with it. I finished in Grade Nine, and it led to a paid job. I live in Ontario, Canada, by the way.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-05-21 07:05pm

If you read earlier Sheppard, I said I did not support it as a requirement for graduation (I think it should stay as part of magent programs and special scholarship offers, etc.), but a comparison to outright slavery is stupid.

Post by **RogueIce** » 2004-05-21 07:48pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:That's why there should be quality evaluation. Whoever is marking down hours needs to assess whether the kid was an asshole or not. We don't send kids to classes without them getting graded on performance, so why send kids to service without checking to see that they're really participating?

In theory, they could just not sing the little paper. But then the kids would whine and complain, so they'd probably have to add "satisfactory service" or something to give them the option.

And if you say that the people signing it could be assholes and not say it was satisfactory, well, with quality evulation they could pretty much do the same thing. Or we can continue with the strong possibility of half-assed community work. *shrug*

Of course, JROTC gave us ribbons and stuff, and the people with the most community service hours could get shiny medals. If all else fails, just bribe the kids.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-05-21 08:44pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Eventually, John Kerry believes that we can build a truly clean and secure economy based on hydrogen -- a clean fuel that we can eventually get entirely from renewable sources from our farms, the wind, solar energy, hydropower and geothermal sources.

He's out of his mind. I love the complete and total impossibilities currently listed. If he wants all that hydrogen, he'll have to go France/Japan with Breeder reactors and such. Ethanol BS and sun/wind/dams aren't going to cut it.

Where did he say that?