I might have to vote for John Kerry...

[Master of Ossus]

Anytime you have the state paying for a college education, that moves towards a socialized system. Granted, there are limited instances in which such a system has been successful, but over time those systems have always broken down. The situation in Europe, right now, is particularly appalling.

You can get several thousand dollars straight from the taxpayers pockets to your college education via the state for military service. Same with AmeriCorp and PeaceCorp. Is that socialism?

No, which is why I carefully pointed out that there are some exceptions to this. However, Kerry's program appears to go far beyond that by greatly expanding the types of positions which someone could fill in order to earn such scholarships.

[Andrew J.]

As a high school student who will have graduated by the time this plan could possibly be initiated, I am fully in favor of it.

Hell, maybe if they had made me do community service I would have done my NHS hours earlier, instead of scrambling for work at the last minute.

And I don't want to hear any bitching about how this is slave "labor," either. Community service is easy; chemistry is labor.

[SecondStorm]

Think so? After what happened when Europe from their socialized school system, I have serious doubts about the feasability and effectiveness of this program.

Could you explain what you mean with "socialized school system" ?

Anytime you have the state paying for a college education, that moves towards a socialized system. Granted, there are limited instances in which such a system has been successful, but over time those systems have always broken down. The situation in Europe, right now, is particularly appalling.

Could you tell me what is wrong with Europes socialized school system?

[Master of Ossus]

Could you tell me what is wrong with Europes socialized school system?

Sure. The services provided by it are considerably weaker than the ones provided by even third-rate American public institutions. Take England, for example. About half the funding for the entire college system there goes to maintaining Oxford and Cambridge, whose services have still slipped under the system. Cambridge and Oxford have all but halted new construction, they can't retain their staffs (one professor left teaching to read gas meters because there was more money in that), and the rest of the colleges there are in similar financial straits. Meanwhile, alumni donations have trickled down to almost nothing compared with American and Canadian institutions (though Canada's are falling, also), the lack of accountability on the part of colleges and universities has removed the incentive to provide better service at a lower price. In Germany, they were forced to change the rules regulating the system because so many students there were taking inordinately long times to finish their degree programs. This has left the state a significant economic burden, which they can't even begin to make up for the next 15 years in most parts of Europe.

Other studies have shown that the socialized system has done virtually nothing to encourage low-income students to finish their degrees. College and university graduates there have a reduced incentive to look for high-paying jobs, which has meant that the income of college graduates compared with high-school graduates in Europe has gone down by an average of almost 20% since the socialized systems were implemented. Most studies in the US find that undergraduate and graduate studies programs are already OVER funded by the state, since graduates are not providing that many positive externalities. If that's the case in the US, imagine the over-funding problems in Europe, where the entire bill is footed by the college.

In short, the socialized system has been a disaster for Europe. Their colleges and universities are now providing extremely weak educations compared to non-socialized ones at a significantly raised social cost. The social benefits provided by the socialized system have actually GONE DOWN because of the program, since less people graduate and they aren't as motivated to seek professional careers, and the system has failed to entice low-income individuals to enter college, which was the stated goal of most of the programs when they started.

[Gil Hamilton]

No, which is why I carefully pointed out that there are some exceptions to this. However, Kerry's program appears to go far beyond that by greatly expanding the types of positions which someone could fill in order to earn such scholarships.

I don't see how it's that different. Take AmeriCorp, for instance. It's basically a domestic PeaceCorp, where students and potential students enroll and are moved into a state run dorm. From their, they do what is asked of them. They go to flooded areas and put out sandbags. They clean up environmental areas (IE, picking up junk in parks). They go to urban communities and help organize programs. All of this is supported and funded by taxpayer money. Their cost of living stipend comes from the state. Their housing comes from the state. Transporting them is done by the state. And after a year of this, they are given a few thousand dollars of taxpayer money and can re-enroll for another year (and another bit of college money).

How exactly is that not socialism, if Kerry's program is? After all, from the sound of it, Kerry's two years of service for four years of college money is just a bigger version of AmeriCorp.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I'm afraid I somewhat agree with Ossus.

I'm wary of giving scholarships away to those who cannot pay unless the means of selecting who gets those scholarships is merit-based; as in how good the student was in high school. I don't have much faith in shitty students who do national service or whatever for two years then get a full ride for four years. (I am happy, however, than this aide is restricted to four years, my state's "Bright Futures" scholarship program locks in at this amount too; too many idiots are staying around for the "six-to-eight year Anheiser Busch plan" as my epistemology doctor christened it).

[Master of Ossus]

I don't see how it's that different. Take AmeriCorp, for instance. It's basically a domestic PeaceCorp, where students and potential students enroll and are moved into a state run dorm. From their, they do what is asked of them. They go to flooded areas and put out sandbags. They clean up environmental areas (IE, picking up junk in parks). They go to urban communities and help organize programs. All of this is supported and funded by taxpayer money. Their cost of living stipend comes from the state. Their housing comes from the state. Transporting them is done by the state. And after a year of this, they are given a few thousand dollars of taxpayer money and can re-enroll for another year (and another bit of college money).

How exactly is that not socialism, if Kerry's program is? After all, from the sound of it, Kerry's two years of service for four years of college money is just a bigger version of AmeriCorp.

Well, I think that is a socialist-style program, and I don't support that, either. With the Peace Corps and the military it makes sense, since it's clear that people actually have to give something up in order to serve and earn their college money. Namely, there's a significant chance of death or serious injury above and beyond normal living. They also have to go through training, effectively pre-screening themselves to select better qualified applicants. Picking up trash, however, does not represent substantial enough service for me to consider giving them massive college pay-outs. I can see expanding this into other areas, such as police work or firefighting and the like. But I seriously don't see picking up garbage as being valuable enough for the state to be forced to pay for their college education.

[Gil Hamilton]

My ex-girlfriend is in the PeaceCorp and never once in any of her letters had she mentioned being at risk of being killed and her job largely seems to be dealing with a small herd of Central American children. One of my English professors was also in PeaceCorp and said that, by and large, he spent the time translating books on poetry into Arabic. Though his time was a bit more adventurous. The country he was in, Oman, managed to have a civil war and the PeaceCorp people were evacuated, though the closest he came to a fight was the two Saudi airport security officers that found his brandy and made him watch as they poured it into a toilet. PeaceCorp isn't precisely as dangerous as you paint it.

Plus, in the military, it's not just individuals who actually fight that get college benefits. A person can get awarded the Montgomery GI Bill even as a pencil pusher far from combat.

[Darth Wong]

Well, I think that is a socialist-style program, and I don't support that, either.

The fact that a program is "socialist-style" does not constitute a cogent disproof of its value to society.

But I seriously don't see picking up garbage as being valuable enough for the state to be forced to pay for their college education.

Compared to the salaries and benefit packages of the unionized city workers who would be doing it otherwise? I guess it depends on how many hours they put in, and how much of one's college tuition they pay for, but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it on economic grounds.

[Master of Ossus]

Well, I think that is a socialist-style program, and I don't support that, either.

The fact that a program is "socialist-style" does not constitute a cogent disproof of its value to society.

No, but in this case I've already demonstrated that socialist-style college financing is an unmitigated disaster, and should almost certainly not be adopted.

But I seriously don't see picking up garbage as being valuable enough for the state to be forced to pay for their college education.

Compared to the salaries and benefit packages of the unionized city workers who would be doing it otherwise? I guess it depends on how many hours they put in, and how much of one's college tuition they pay for, but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it on economic grounds.

Perhaps, although almost all the trash and garbage that's picked up of big-city streets is dealt with by homeless people, so I don't particularly see the social benefits in getting others to do it.

Also, I don't know how much the people are being paid to pick up trash, but let's assume it's a fairly generous $60,000 per year, with minimal benefits. The proposed "volunteer," if they were compensated in a way similar to our soldiers, would be given over $100,000 per year for their service, since this is a two-year program. That doesn't strike me as being a very good deal. Now, of course, not everyone's going to take all of the money since some of them will go to public schools and some of them will not be going to college, but I'm still not too thrilled about spending $100,000 tax payer dollars for something that could be done for a lower price, even with unionized labor.

[Howedar]

(I am happy, however, than this aide is restricted to four years, my state's "Bright Futures" scholarship program locks in at this amount too; too many idiots are staying around for the "six-to-eight year Anheiser Busch plan" as my epistemology doctor christened it).

I don't know what Mike would think about this, probably call me a lazy young whippersnapper or something, but I'm finding the workload to get an engineering degree in four years to be a bit much. IMHO five years is quite reasonable for many majors.

Of course, some pussy shit out to be finished in three...

[Illuminatus Primus]

Well it was connected in conjunction with IB graduates from my school who go to UF and due to IB and AP scores almost universally begin at second-semester sophmores, in which case you can see taking a really long time at uni is ridiculous, and should not be taken as necessarily applying to everyone in a generalisation (as it is, most of them double-major, and I probably will too).

[Master of Ossus]

I don't know what Mike would think about this, probably call me a lazy young whippersnapper or something, but I'm finding the workload to get an engineering degree in four years to be a bit much. IMHO five years is quite reasonable for many majors.

Of course, some pussy shit out to be finished in three...

Five years doesn't strike me as being unreasonable: even with lower-workload schools there are a lot of people who take a year off, but I still don't see much reason not to have them pay for it, if only to provide an incentive to finish on-time. Heartless as this may sound, I very much doubt that a senior in engineering school is going to have a particularly difficult time getting a loan to pay for their last year in college, and provided that they finish they'll doubtless be able to recover the cost of doing so, even if it still hurts them compared to a student who finishes in four.

BTW, that was the problem in Germany. They had almost 10% of their students taking MORE than six years to finish their undergrad degrees, and a lot of them simply dropped out of their last semester so as to avoid the "graduate tax." They changed the rules about how long someone could enjoy government funding to go to school, but they still haven't really solved the problem of people ducking the tax by dropping out in their last semester.

[Howedar]

Fair enough. I guess I'm just bitter cause my scholarship is... 4 years

[Darth Wong]

Co-op education is the solution. School goes year-round, but every other semester is a "work semester", where you go and get a job, and you have to write a report at the end of that term which is related to your field and the job you were doing. The job helps you pay for the next semester, and companies are given special tax incentives to hire students who are on this program.

[kojikun]

my school has a mandatory 40-hour community service requirement for graduation.

[Master of Ossus]

my school has a mandatory 40-hour community service requirement for graduation.

Lots of schools require a few hours of community service for graduation, but there's a difference between asking someone to do a little work in the community every now and then and forcing them to take a year out of their lives and dedicate that to community service.

[phongn]

I'm wary of giving scholarships away to those who cannot pay unless the means of selecting who gets those scholarships is merit-based; as in how good the student was in high school. I don't have much faith in shitty students who do national service or whatever for two years then get a full ride for four years. (I am happy, however, than this aide is restricted to four years, my state's "Bright Futures" scholarship program locks in at this amount too; too many idiots are staying around for the "six-to-eight year Anheiser Busch plan" as my epistemology doctor christened it).

I'm luckily grandfathered in under the old 7-year rule, because I'll be needing five years to graduate. And while I have a pile of AP credit, not all of it was accepted or useful. But yes, there are not a few people abusing that system. (My sister is stresing out, though, because while she gets Bright Futures, some of her architecture classes are dual graduate/undergraduate courses which are not fully covered by that scholarship).

Sure. The services provided by it are considerably weaker than the ones provided by even third-rate American public institutions. Take England, for example. About half the funding for the entire college system there goes to maintaining Oxford and Cambridge, whose services have still slipped under the system.

If anyone cares to view where MoO got his information, the relevant article is posted in this thread

[Durandal]

Co-op education is the solution. School goes year-round, but every other semester is a "work semester", where you go and get a job, and you have to write a report at the end of that term which is related to your field and the job you were doing. The job helps you pay for the next semester, and companies are given special tax incentives to hire students who are on this program.

That's what my dad did when he attended GMI (General Motors Institute), now Kettering University. For 6 weeks, they'd take classes. Then for the next 6 weeks, they'd work in the plants. And their education was paid for by GM. Only two majors were offered: Mechanical engineering and administration. ME was 35 credit hours per week; IA was 25. So some ME student wrote above the toilet paper dispenser in one of the bathrooms "IA Degree. Take one."