Same-sex marriage in Canada

[Darth Wong]

Many of you may believe that there is no need to discuss a "done deal", but despite numerous high-profile victories, the battle is still being waged here. The fact that the federal government said they would allow gay marriage does not mean that provincial governments are allowing them to be performed in their jurisdictions. Religious groups are still foaming at the mouth trying to reverse the gains already made. And the Redneck, I mean Reform, I mean Alliance, I mean New Conservative Party has submitted literally dozens of petitions in Parliament in their efforts to turn back the tide. It's a sure thing that Stephen Harper (leader of the Redneck, er, Reform, er, Alliance, er, New Conservative Party) would immediately attack gay marriage if he were to ever get into power.

So there is a gay-marriage advocacy website for Canadians out there, and it's at http://www.samesexmarriage.ca

Those of you who are curious might want to check it out; the initial battle has been won but the long period of insurgent uprisings is just getting underway, and Al-Sadr (I mean Stephen Harper) is readying his forces.

[Aaron]

I take it that if Harper and the Conservatives make it into power in the next election then we can expect a bill banning gay marriage to be preposed? I certainily hope not, I'm planning on voting Conservative because I believe their the only hope for our militaries survival. But there stance on gay marriage greatly disturbs me.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

What the fuck is it with politics and package deals? I fucking hate it: Vote one way, get taxed to death and guns taken away. Vote the other way and get corporations steamrolling people's civil rights by the millions and religious fundamentalism forcibly thrust down your throat...

[darthdavid]

I say we the fine netizens of sd.net, pool our money and buy our own private island where everything is perfect.

[Ma Deuce]

What the fuck is it with politics and package deals?

Oh, be thankful the Democrats aren't nearly as bad as the Liberal Party of Canada in that regard. On the other hand, I don't believe that our Conservative Party is as bad as the Republicans.

Still, I also plan to vote conservative, despite my misgivings about their stance on gay marriage and other social issues. However, if the Liberals end up with a minority government, I'll be happy (Realisticly, I think thats the best Conservative voters can hope for anyway). Setting aside what I think of the Liberals, I don't think that 3 majority governments in a row have been healthy for the country or the Liberal Party...

[Aaron]

Still, I also plan to vote conservative, despite my misgivings about their stance on gay marriage and other social issues. However, if the Liberals end up with a minority government, I'll be happy (Realisticly, I think thats the best Conservative voters can hope for anyway). Setting aside what I think of the Liberals, I don't think that 3 majority governments in a row have been healthy for the country or the Liberal Party...

I'll also be happy with a minority Liberal government. The last 3 elections have seen the Liberals go from a fine alternative to Mulroney to a corrupt, and morally disgusting party. The Liberals have systematically destroyed the military, and they certainly haven't helped out healthcare. Then there's the constant corruption scandels........

[Solauren]

I'm for a minor government period. That way, they HAVE to comprimise.

As long as the liberals do not get a majority, I'm happy.

Case in point: The latest Ontario budget.

[Darth Wong]

I take it that if Harper and the Conservatives make it into power in the next election then we can expect a bill banning gay marriage to be preposed?

Over a 5-day period in February, they submitted an astonishing sixty one separate petitions designed to fight gay marriage. I'd say it's a fair bet that if they actually won the election they'd immediately strike down gay marriage.

I certainily hope not, I'm planning on voting Conservative because I believe their the only hope for our militaries survival. But there stance on gay marriage greatly disturbs me.

Their stance on all social issues greatly disturbs me. I like their stance on fiscal issues (in a broad sense; they fall down on details), but their idea of society is not the kind of society I'd want to live in.

[Solauren]

Looking at Canada's curtain situtations then Mike, here's a interesting conundrum

Would you be willing to put up with Conversative party social crap until the next Federal election in order to have them build a stronger economy?

[Darth Wong]

Looking at Canada's curtain situtations then Mike, here's a interesting conundrum

Would you be willing to put up with Conversative party social crap until the next Federal election in order to have them build a stronger economy?

What makes you think they will fix the economy? Paul Martin is fairly conservative on economic issues already, so what are they going to do?

Look at their website at http://www.conservative.ca and you will notice that there's a server error when you try to skip the intro to read the page. Do you trust a party which can't even administrate a website to administrate a nation? And check out their policy document at http://www.conservative.ca/english/documents/policy.pdf ; can you seriously tell me that these are the policies of a party which knows what it's doing? Once you get past the vague feelgood boilerplate about beliefs and values (which is most of the document, unfortunately) and the bullshit about "cutting waste" which every single party has always said they would do (some were so confident that they factored the savings from these promises into budget plans) and no party has ever successfully done, look at two of their only concrete, specific promises:

p4: Balanced-budget legislation (aka economic straitjacket).
p5: Legislated debt-repayment plan!!!! (see above).

Does this sound smart to you? And woven throughout the whole document are promises to maintain virtually every major federal social program, from health-care to education and employment insurance and everything else, while simultaneously promising "broad tax relief" to Canadians while paying down the debt and balancing the budget. Can you spell "bullshit"? Almost all of their promises are vague qualitative statements of values: utterly worthless tripe. Look at this example:

Social Programs
The Conservative Party of Canada believes that social programs should be designed on the premise that responsibility for the well being of citizens rests first and foremost with the individual and family.

Provincial Role in Social Programs
The Conservative Party of Canada believes social programs should be designed so the level of government closest to the people being served manage and deliver those programs. A Conservative government will respect the constitutional jurisdiction of the provinces in the delivery of social programs.

Healthcare
The Conservative Party of Canada believes all Canadians should have reasonable access to quality health care regardless of their ability to pay.

Does anyone else notice that the third part contradicts the first two? They think the individual should be responsible, and that the provinces should take care of everything, thus taking it out of the hands of federal government ... but they also believe that every Canadian should have health care. Well, how the fuck are they supposed to accomplish that last promise if they follow through on the first two statements of principle, to make individuals responsible for their own health care and dump everything on the provinces? This is a beautiful example of their schizophrenic bullshit, speaking out of both sides of their collective mouth.

Can anyone wonder why I don't take these windbags seriously? And check out this bullshit:

Retirement Savings
A Conservative government would value retirement security as a vital element of independence. We will honour obligations under current government programs and will maintain support for low-income seniors.

A Conservative government will pursue economic and fiscal policies that will ensure government retirement programs are affordable and sustainable over the long run.

Oh I see, they won't cut anything major (sorry, but their crown jewel plan of cutting the gun registry won't make as much of a difference as people think), they'll make it all sustainable, they'll cut taxes, they'll pay down the debt, and they'll balance the budget, all at the same time! Sorry to be a naysayer, but I know how to operate a calculator, and that doesn't fucking add up.

Even their gun-control stance is vague mealy-mouthed bullshit:

Firearms Registry
A Conservative government will replace the current firearms law, including its firearms registration provisions, with a practical firearms control system that is cost effective and respects the rights of Canadians to own and use firearms responsibly.

Are they going to cut the program? Noooo, they'll replace it with one that's "practical" and "cost effective". Do they say what this replacement will look like? Nope.

Their key planks are:

1. putting the government in an economic straitjacket with balanced-budget and forced debt-repayment legislation
2. harsher criminal justice system
3. cut taxes
4. maintain every major federal social program and obligation in principle, while promising to somehow cut all of their costs while magically maintaining their obligations
5. download social programs (and their associated costs) to the provincial level while still somehow guaranteeing at the federal level that these services are maintained at current levels.
6. spend more money on the military.

News flash: you can't do all of that shit at once! Some of those promises even contradict themselves! Oh yes, and they throw in this little gem near the end:

Parliament and the Courts
A Conservative government will maintain a proper balance between Parliament and the courts.

You'd think that if they were going to try to cloak an attack on "activist judges" and gay marriage, they could have done a better job of hiding it.

[Peregrin Toker]

What the fuck is it with politics and package deals? I fucking hate it: Vote one way, get taxed to death and guns taken away. Vote the other way and get corporations steamrolling people's civil rights by the millions and religious fundamentalism forcibly thrust down your throat...

I know it's like that in the US, but is the political landscape really that bipolar in Canada?

[Ma Deuce]

I know it's like that in the US, but is the political landscape really that bipolar in Canada?

Perhaps we're not as bipolar as the US, but it's still bad here, especially now that the Alliance and Progressive Conservative parties have merged to form the Canpub- err, Conservative Party of Canada. It has been this way since the Reform (later Alliance) party became the official opposition to the Liberal government in the '96 elections. The PC party (on the federal level) basically died in the '92 elections, and anything it's done since then has basically been reflexive corpse twitching.

[The Aliens]

The most plausible scenario I want to see isa minority Conservative government. That'll shove the Liberals to the left as they ally with the NDP, resulting in whatever crappy legislation the Tories try to pass getting shot down. That'll necessitate a vote of no-confidence, sending the voters back to the polls within six months after the first election, causing the Conservatives to plummet in the polls (elections cost money) and resulting in a much bigger NDP prescnece in the house within a couple of years.

[muse]

I'm for a minor government period. That way, they HAVE to comprimise.

The problem with a minority government is that nothing gets friggin' done, wait, wait, you're saying that nothing gets done in government anyway? Well, with a minority they'll be too busy bickering to get anything of importance such as gay marriage, healthcare reform, military spending, or anything like that through the house. Everything will just get stalled in the parliament floors if it even gets there in the first place.

As long as the liberals do not get a majority, I'm happy.

Case in point: The latest Ontario budget.

There's a huge difference between the worthless Ontario liberals who are led by a clown who rivals George Bush in stupidity and incompetancy and the federal Liberals.

There's actually a parallel between the Ontario Liberals and federal Conservatives if you think about it. Both of their platforms can basically be summed up as "we are against the current government, we'll make a bunch of vague promises that sound good but we have no real solution at all for the problems of the people". Sadly enough it worked for the Ontario Liberals, and now our province is being fucked over, and sadly enough it'll probably work for the federal Conservatives, and it'll fuck our country over and set back our social progress (ie. gay marriage) several decades and screw over our social programs (healthcare, pensions, etc.). The current federal government is far from perfect, but at least it's heading in the right direction.

[The Aliens]

As long as the liberals do not get a majority, I'm happy.

Case in point: The latest Ontario budget.

I utterly fail to see the problem with that budget. So what, I have to pay around $500 a year (higher or lower dependent on income) if I get more hospitals, better equipment and more Doctors for it? Five hundred is squat compared to American hospital bills. And I don't see how any sane person can say that adding taxes on alcohol and cigarettes in order to give more funding to public transit ($3 billion) and education ($2.1 billion) is a bad thing.

[The Aliens]

Oops- should have added that I don't agree with taking off free eye tests for adults, and I also recognize that the Liberals lied to the voters about tax increases. While that's a reason to bitch about the government, it doesn't mean the budget is bad.

[Solauren]

Muse:
Seeing as I work for the government, I'm saying nothing gets done

Lord Wong
I was asking that because you said you liked there economic stuff in a BROAD sense.

a simple yes or no would have done.

[aerius]

Ontario budget: The eye tests aren't too bad since the cost of an eye exam isn't going to bankrupt you, it ain't good but I can live with it. However, cancelling coverage for physiotherapy is fucking retarded. If a kid blows his ACL for instance, OHIP will pay for the surgery to put it back together, but now it won't cover his rehab & physio for when he gets off crutches. Those physio costs could easily run thousands of dollars, and without proper rehab & physio that kid will never regain full function of his leg. It's just fucking retarded, cancelling physio coverage is gonna finacially screw over quite a few people, or if they skip physio because of the costs they'll be fucked for life.