The Good Old Days

[Connor MacLeod]

The claim was made that Trek was using high end to go against wars. This was never done. High end is using canon sources like TDIC or Broken Link. What was used was the high end of the moderate figures and that is different.

So then what do you define as the "high end" trek calcs?

This is not the purpose of the thread.

Not in a sense that we're actually discussing the actual figures, but it is relevant insofar as the processes are concerned. I believe Mike's point is that more often than not, debates in the "good old days" largely involved someone either attempting to knock down/weaken one side by nitpicking calcs or evidence, or attempting to generate the biggest numbers they could irrespective of whether or not they made sense or not. To someone like Mike, its annoying as hell to have to deal with that kinda stuff, rather than a more "straight up" debate.

[Kyle]

Might want to read up on the debates again. If that were the case then ST would have stomped SW into the ground because ST high-end smashes SW "low end".

Wrong. ST fanwhore bullshit smashes SW low-end. No remotely realistic ST high-end figure did that even long before the ICS. Even today, ST fanwhore bullshit still smashes SW figures. Idiocy like Graham Kennedy's 1E45J figure for the Genesis device for example. But it doesn't mean shit, and it never did, because it's based on delusional nonsense.

The claim was made that Trek was using high end to go against wars. This was never done. High end is using canon sources like TDIC or Broken Link. What was used was the high end of the moderate figures and that is different.

When I say high end, I mean realistic figures generated that actually match the canon visuals, not figures generated by dialogue, that clearly contradicts visuals. I'm using high end in the scientific sense, as in the amount that it can not be greater then. Not the BS version that mean "the highest numbers I can come up with." Which is what most of the super high TDiC calcs are, those super high numbers are all based on dialogue which the visuals show to be clearly wrong, those aren't high end calcs. What they are is wrong calcs.

This was why I've given up debating in the most part, alot of people still don't understand the meaning of high end and low end.

BTW don't say it was "never done" since it was a common trekkie tactic of the time and if you don't believe me look up any debate involing Elim on ASVS, and you'll see what I mean or you could even look up TOWNMNBS* if you want.

*Timothy Jones

[SPOOFE]

This is not the purpose of the thread.

No offense, Aly, but you're basically saying, "It was more fun before my side got blasted out of the water." The Warsies are simply responding, "Hey, in our eyes, you've ALWAYS been blasted out of the water."

What sort of response were you expecting? "Yeah, old chap, it was great when you called me a deceptive asshole, wasn't it?"

[Stuart Mackey]

I see that there is a need for me to shamelessly quote myself

And lo..one day when SDN and spacebattles are but a dream within a dream and the minds of humankind
rest on other frontiers and matters of other import, a whisper of the past shall come forth, from
the darkest memories, the echos of a simpler time, the words of another time shall utter in the
recess of our minds "you crack smoking donkey fucker! the navigational sheild does not stop
turbolasers!"

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

The claim was made that Trek was using high end to go against wars. This was never done. High end is using canon sources like TDIC or Broken Link. What was used was the high end of the moderate figures and that is different.

Never? If you guys weren't planning to do so, why do I see TDiC threads every other month in my early days in ASVS. It is pretty durn obvious to me the Trekkies were trying to "land on the beach". If they succeed, they are going to use it.

Never mind that Wars high end involves Dodonna. Something like: 1E38/25000 ISDs

Nice and canon too.

By the way, usage of dialogue evidence that was contradicted by visual observation of the damage is, when doing SOD Scientific Analysis, Fanwhore.

[PainRack]

While I do agree with Connor to a certain point, I find myself agreeing with Alyveska.

It was fun, throwing out the stops to challenge Rvalencia, or arguing with Chris over why the Federation fleet would not use range against a lone SSD, or arguing with E1701 that the SW empire could dispatch more than a sector fleet worth to the battle.

The question wasn't who would win. It was a display of a person debating, research and other esoteric skills, to laugh at others fuck-ups and the feeling of overwhelming someone position.

I guess up to a point, it was a form of masterbation for both sides.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

While I do agree with Connor to a certain point, I find myself agreeing with Alyveska.

It was fun, throwing out the stops to challenge Rvalencia, or arguing with Chris over why the Federation fleet would not use range against a lone SSD, or arguing with E1701 that the SW empire could dispatch more than a sector fleet worth to the battle.

You can still do those. The ICS only solved firepower, shielding and acceleration. You can still nitpick on range and availability issues.

Which is yet another reason I have little sympathy.

[Alyeska]

While I do agree with Connor to a certain point, I find myself agreeing with Alyveska.

It was fun, throwing out the stops to challenge Rvalencia, or arguing with Chris over why the Federation fleet would not use range against a lone SSD, or arguing with E1701 that the SW empire could dispatch more than a sector fleet worth to the battle.

You can still do those. The ICS only solved firepower, shielding and acceleration. You can still nitpick on range and availability issues.

Which is yet another reason I have little sympathy.

No, you can't. Any time someone points out long range dialogue from Trek its ignored and NJO is used to prove Wars has lightminute range.

There is nothing left to "nitpick".

[Striderteen]

And lo..one day when SDN and spacebattles are but a dream within a dream and the minds of humankind rest on other frontiers and matters of other import, a whisper of the past shall come forth, from the darkest memories, the echos of a simpler time, the words of another time shall utter in the recess of our minds "you crack smoking donkey fucker! the navigational sheild does not stop turbolasers!"

But by that day and age, the reply will probably be, "Oh yeah? FIRE!"

[Connor MacLeod]

While I do agree with Connor to a certain point, I find myself agreeing with Alyveska.

It was fun, throwing out the stops to challenge Rvalencia, or arguing with Chris over why the Federation fleet would not use range against a lone SSD, or arguing with E1701 that the SW empire could dispatch more than a sector fleet worth to the battle.

The question wasn't who would win. It was a display of a person debating, research and other esoteric skills, to laugh at others fuck-ups and the feeling of overwhelming someone position.

I guess up to a point, it was a form of masterbation for both sides.

Rvalencia was a fucking pain in the ass.

[Lord Poe]

What the hell are you talking about?

This, my student:

My interest in the debate forced me to learn more so I could debate properly.

I wouldn't say the SW side is "unhappy", just vindicated. Trekkies are old news. There is a new evil for us to combat now: ignorant SW fans....

The fun came from looking up information to trash those like Elim. There was fun to be had by stringing Lord Edam along for a dozen posts, then slamming him to the wall with evidence I had a dozen posts back. And it was a lot of fun making up inventive insults to the truly idiotic.

[Zorlon]

Even before ICS came out the debate was setteled for anyone with a grip on reality(for want of a better word), but after ICS there was no longer any need to prove why that was so.
The Debate was dead, but ICS was the final nail in it's coffin. All that was needed then was to write "ICS, 200Gigatons, Official"

For me, this topic isn't even about ICS... it's about the passing of the great debate. The debate was so fun that for it to be resolved, even with my side proving itself right, is poignant. So poignant that even though it was setteled before ICS came out, we kept on pretending there was something to talk about untill it's release.

After all, it must have been fun, it's what brought all of us together.


BTW, Alyeska, I'm flattered.

[Alyeska]

Even before ICS came out the debate was setteled for anyone with a grip on reality(for want of a better word

Funny how none of us Trekkies stopped debating until after ICS recieved canon status. The debate was settled eh? That means both sides need to agree.

[Striderteen]

Even before ICS came out the debate was setteled for anyone with a grip on reality(for want of a better word

Funny how none of us Trekkies stopped debating until after ICS recieved canon status. The debate was settled eh? That means both sides need to agree.

The primary debate of the Star Wars Empire vs. the Star Trek Federation was completely settled in the minds of all but stubborn lunatics; the only sane debates that continued were small scale fights between the lesser warships of the Empire and entire fleets of the Federation.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Even before ICS came out the debate was setteled for anyone with a grip on reality(for want of a better word

Funny how none of us Trekkies stopped debating until after ICS recieved canon status. The debate was settled eh? That means both sides need to agree.

DarkStar and that Stewart character also does not agree with our conclusions. Does that mean our debates with them are not settled?

Let me put it this way. It was settled Logically before the ICS became canon, but Trekkies require Authority, so they require someone to tell them.

This is Trekkies:

Warsies assemble huge pile of evidence and logic.
Trekkie: Give me a source that says the number you say is true flat out.

Warsies come back with EP2ICS, which flat out says what they've been saying for years.
Trekkie: That's merely official.

Warsies come back with the news the EP2ICS is canon.
Trekkie: Ah, OK, you win. Fuck ICS!

[Alyeska]

Even before ICS came out the debate was setteled for anyone with a grip on reality(for want of a better word

Funny how none of us Trekkies stopped debating until after ICS recieved canon status. The debate was settled eh? That means both sides need to agree.

The primary debate of the Star Wars Empire vs. the Star Trek Federation was completely settled in the minds of all but stubborn lunatics; the only sane debates that continued were small scale fights between the lesser warships of the Empire and entire fleets of the Federation.

To us Trekkies that WAS the debate. Three months into my joining SB.com I admited the strategic debate was a forgone conclussion. 90% of the Trekkies who continued debating were debating the tactical side of the issue. That was the debate and that didn't end untill ICS came out.

[Alyeska]

DarkStar and that Stewart character also does not agree with our conclusions. Does that mean our debates with them are not settled?

Let me put it this way. It was settled Logically before the ICS became canon, but Trekkies require Authority, so they require someone to tell them.

This is Trekkies:

Warsies assemble huge pile of evidence and logic.
Trekkie: Give me a source that says the number you say is true flat out.

Warsies come back with EP2ICS, which flat out says what they've been saying for years.
Trekkie: That's merely official.

Warsies come back with the news the EP2ICS is canon.
Trekkie: Ah, OK, you win. Fuck ICS!

Bullshit. Before ICS the debates were still going on because the numbers weren't so high and the debates weren't so useless. It was canon numbers that ended the debate. If the debate had been over before that point we would have conceded it. The fact that your claiming the numbers existed before hand without authority proves the numbers DIDN'T exist before hand else they would have been used.

[Striderteen]

As I understand it, prior to ICS all evidence pointed to Star Wars having firepower somewhere in the mid-to-high gigaton range, although low-mid gigaton was used for most debates in order to prevent certain people from derailing every single debate thread into Yet Another Firepower Flame War. If you use the very high end of the Star Trek firepower range against the very low end of the pre-ICS Star Wars firepower range, a medium to large fleet of Federation warships can defeat a lesser Imperial warship.

ICS made this impossible by authoritatively declaring Star Wars firepower to be in the high gigaton range, at the upper end of the previously calculated data range. This position is in fact supported by a large portion of the previously gathered evidence, but was an unpleasant surprise to many Trekkies, who were not familiar with the early firepower debates and thus thought that the low-gigaton compromises used in later force-on-force debates were the definitive figures for Star Wars. Thus originates many Trekkies' claim that the ICS of being nothing more than published fanwanking; unaware of the earlier discussions, they only saw that before ICS Warsies usually claimed only low to mid gigaton firepower, and after it they were claiming high gigaton firepower.

[Alyeska]

As I understand it, prior to ICS all evidence pointed to Star Wars having firepower somewhere in the mid-to-high gigaton range, although low-mid gigaton was used for most debates in order to prevent certain people from derailing every single debate thread into Yet Another Firepower Flame War. If you use the very high end of the Star Trek firepower range against the very low end of the pre-ICS Star Wars firepower range, a medium to large fleet of Federation warships can defeat a lesser Imperial warship.

Funny how no one ever bothered to tell us Trekkies that this is what was going on. Funny how people who advocated higher then low GT was laughed at for being stupid.

ICS made this impossible by authoritatively declaring Star Wars firepower to be in the high gigaton range, at the upper end of the previously calculated data range. This position is in fact supported by a large portion of the previously gathered evidence, but was an unpleasant surprise to many Trekkies, who were not familiar with the early firepower debates and thus thought that the low-gigaton compromises used in later force-on-force debates were the definitive figures for Star Wars. Thus originates many Trekkies' claim that the ICS of being nothing more than published fanwanking; unaware of the earlier discussions, they only saw that before ICS Warsies usually claimed only low to mid gigaton firepower, and after it they were claiming high gigaton firepower.

What earlier discussions? The discussions that the Trekkies were conviently excluded from? In all my history of VS debating I NEVER saw this. Same with Chris O'Farrell. If this claim is true, it means the Warsies were being dishonest debaters moving the goal posts and changing standards without telling the opposition.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Bullshit. Before ICS the debates were still going on because the numbers weren't so high and the debates weren't so useless.

The numbers that are typically used aren't so high, mostly due to obstinate Trekkies. No point in talking about BDZ to a crowd that don't understand asteroids yet. However, even at a very early stage (like no more than four months after I came into ASVS), I already realized that the numbers written in the ICS are EASILY possible, even as Thermodynamic Lower Limits, not Realistic Estimates.

The truth changed little from the Warsie viewpoint. It changed from the Trekkie viewpoint because they wouldn't face reality until it was slammed into their faces.

It was canon numbers that ended the debate.

No, it was canon numbers that forced Trekkies to see the handwriting on the wall.

If the debate had been over before that point we would have conceded it.

We all (not counting trolls and the like) LIKE to think that if the debate is in fact over, we would have detected it ourselves and conceded immediately. Unfortunately, that simply isn't the case in reality. Either due to pride, or a mental blind spot, all too often this we fall short of the ideal. It is NOT merely a Trekkie problem.

The fact that your claiming the numbers existed before hand without authority proves the numbers DIDN'T exist before hand else they would have been used.

OK, it is kind of like the 5-mile Executor.

We logically derive, from screenshots and the like, the true length. But a TFN type would scream and insist on an official source, until then it is 5-miles, blah, blah ...

If tomorrow a book came out with the 11-mile length, those people's world would be shattered. They'd think that new book somehow changed reality.

But the evidence and numbers existed before. Just that they didn't have the logical ability to understand and accept it, so they were so shocked when it was written into their faces.

To us, reality hasn't changed a bit. We already knew what the book said was true. But because they are so hugging on Authority, to them the world changed, and until then the numbers and evidence of the 11 miler didn't exist.

But it always had. Same here.

Of course, perhaps our laziness and generosity in using only blatantly Conservative Thermodynamic Lower Limit Calculations, then settling a bit further back to get a scenario processed faster with the results we wanted may have added to the confusion in Trekkies, as Striderteen mentioned.

[Alyeska]

Complete bullshit. No one ever bothered to "prove" this higher figures you claim were always accepted. In my entire history debating STvsSW the only time I saw figures above low GT was when everyone else was laughing at the concept. Chris in all his time at ASVS never saw such figures thrown around in a serious fashion.

If what you claim is true then that means the Warsies were even more dishonest in their debating because they made arbitrary rules without bothering to tell anyone and assumed all Trekkies were complete idiots and didn't give those of us who knew what the fuck we were talking about the benefit of the doubt.

[SirNitram]

Complete bullshit. No one ever bothered to "prove" this higher figures you claim were always accepted. In my entire history debating STvsSW the only time I saw figures above low GT was when everyone else was laughing at the concept. Chris in all his time at ASVS never saw such figures thrown around in a serious fashion.

If what you claim is true then that means the Warsies were even more dishonest in their debating because they made arbitrary rules without bothering to tell anyone and assumed all Trekkies were complete idiots and didn't give those of us who knew what the fuck we were talking about the benefit of the doubt.

You seem to think we met in cloistered, star-shaped rooms and declared these things To Be So. Nothing so conspiratorial; in my case, I simply saw the rabid, unrelenting attacks on all the high-end bombardment scenarios, and thus didn't press the obvious logical conclusion of them.

[Darth Wong]

Funny how no one ever bothered to tell us Trekkies that this is what was going on. Funny how people who advocated higher then low GT was laughed at for being stupid.

You're full of shit. Curtis Saxton has been claiming that a BDZ requires a lower limit of 500 million TW sustained firepower (roughly 120 gigatons sustained per second) for years. Note the distinction between lower limit and estimate. And my Base Delta Zero page was written before AOTC or ICS2 came out, and it argued that the figures could be much higher: 1E27 J for the entire operation, thus requiring tens of thousands of gigatons per second for a 1-hour operation, and several thousand gigatons per second even if it takes a whole day). I don't recall anyone on the SW side accusing either Curtis or myself of being "stupid" as a result.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Complete bullshit. No one ever bothered to "prove" this higher figures you claim were always accepted. In my entire history debating STvsSW the only time I saw figures above low GT was when everyone else was laughing at the concept. Chris in all his time at ASVS never saw such figures thrown around in a serious fashion.

Very curiously, during my very first four months in ASVS, I had already began exploring the possibility of higher numbers than BDZ (those numbers were used for the computations in the disastrous SDR release). I even compiled some crude thoughts into an Essay, which still remains along with other, much finer essays written by much more experienced people, ironically including one that uses SDR as a future lesson to all writers

Anyway, I was one of what I called the forward echelon (in private). Durandal was one of them, since I chatted with him for the Dankayo stuff. I think Graeme Dice and Kynes were also members. Anyway, IIRC we tended to take the Unaltered BDZ (no extension) very easily. Generally, we think that (even in 2001) the idea of an ISD killing hundreds or thousands of GCSs (and we mean in one engagement if you can get that many GCSs together) perfectly plausible. I suspect we all knew that the ICS was just a matter of time.

There was, admittedly, an aft echelon, which favor about 8 SCS or so : 1, as of early 2001.

In fact, we know the ICS is easily possible since ANH. Surely you cannot have missed the ever present Dodonna. We may not talk about Dankayo so much because in ASVS, we are trying to educate Trekkies about basic BDZ Theory. In SB, as of early 2001, I'd say they are trying to educate Trekkies about basic Asteroid Theory. But certainly we all talk about Dodonna. And what do Trekkies do? Come on, you know what you said every time it came up, and I know it wasn't "Gee wheez, Warsie, I think you are right."

If what you claim is true then that means the Warsies were even more dishonest in their debating because they made arbitrary rules without bothering to tell anyone and assumed all Trekkies were complete idiots and didn't give those of us who knew what the fuck we were talking about the benefit of the doubt.

What arbitrary rules?

The ultimate point is that reality did not change with the ICS, so stop blaming it for your current hard life. At most, Trekkies' PERCEPTION of it changed. Maybe the ICS was the brick that got through your skulls, but reality never really changed.

[Kamakazie Sith]

It's interesting that some people seem to have taken offense to this thread which was created out of a sense of nostalgia.