Deserter Claims To Have Witnessed Abuses

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2004-05-24 06:54pm

So ? Since the inception of the "Völkerbund" it is clear that all these wars were unjust.
The leadership of the 3rd Reich was convicted for crimes against peace, which consisted of a resources grab (aka land grab or invasion of poland and a butt load of other countries).
Check out the principles of the Nuremberg trials

Sure ? Even if this was correct your POV is problematic.

According to the constitution treaties signed and ratified by president and congress become "supreme law of the land". The UN charter delcaring wars of agression to be illegal was ratified in 1945.
As an result under american law any order pertaining to the invasion of iraq was unjust and illegal. The only defense a soldier partiscipating in the invasion can bring forward against the charge "commiting crimes against the peace" is "hindsight is 20/20" as well as "I was just following orders".
BtW the Veterans for peace are with me in this.

In short the President of the United states, the members of congress as well as any soldiers partiscipating in the invasion are criminals.

Actually there is grey area out the ass for that one.

1. The US and Iraq were still under a cease fire agreement for the 91 Gulf War. A technical 'state of war' still exsisted under a ceasefire.

2. Iraq had breached that ceasefire too many times to count.

3. 17 UN resolutions and alot of them that declared 'serious consequences' for not complying, including the (correct me if I'm wrong) 1441.

Admittatly the UN deal is not a real good argument since all those resolutions are political double speach with as much meaning as a typical billboard.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2004-05-24 07:07pm

Elfdart wrote:Exactly what commodities are worthy of war? If oil is an excuse, why not pork bellies? Cattle futures? The notion that attacking another country is justified because they have something you want is the mentality of thieves, rapists and murderers.

I find it amusing that this Army National Guardsman is getting his balls busted for desertion when Dubya deserted from REMF duty in the Air National Guard. Too bad this guy's daddy wasn't a congressman and grandad a senator. Maybe he could someday be President, too!

Oil is not my excuse, it was one of the excuses that the guy in the original article used as a reason not to follow his orders.

That said, since oil is the shit that makes any first world economy spin, I'd say that oil would be a good reason to go to war.

Take heed, I am not saying that that is why we went to war in Iraq, nor am I saying that the US should go to war over oil at this point in our history.

Sriad wrote:"Steal a loaf of bread when you're STARVING"?!?
Excuse me while I die laughing. First of all, the US ain't starving, we're sitting on our oil reserve, a fat man insisting on eating other people's bread. (although, granted, we're paying for it.)

Learn to read more and knee jerk less;

I said that the deserting scum bag's assertion that the US went to war in Iraq over oil (and that its a bad excuse to go to war) was dumb. I have never said that that was actually the case.

I was just arguing that even if this guy was right (which he isn't) it would still be a better reason to go to war since if the US was out of oil, our economy would collapse and historicaly wars for resources are one of the most common type.

So his dumb ass excuse to desert was not a very good one.

Second, history needs to stop trying to backseat drive on this one. 2a) UN charter, Geneva, etc ad nauseum. 2b) why yes, MOST WARS IN HISTORY WERE UNJUST. What the hell books are you reading? Historically speaking, wars aren't started because the Noble King is riding off to free the enemy nation's people from brutal oppression, they're started because he's actually a Greedy Asshat King out for revenge.

Gee, countries act in self interest. Yeah, they're soooo much different than people. But I suppose that if you lived in some shithole with no money, no food, and jack shit for anything, the though of getting together and taking someone elses shit would NEVER occur to you.

Welcome to war. Welcome to history.

Which (thirdly) is, when you think about it, actually the case here.

Honestly, I believe that Bushy originaly wished to finish something that was started a decade ago. The corruption and blindingly stupid mistakes happened durring the execution of the war.[/i]

Sriad · Post by **Sriad** » 2004-05-25 04:30am

Knife wrote:
Sriad wrote:"Steal a loaf of bread when you're STARVING"?!?
Excuse me while I die laughing. First of all, the US ain't starving, we're sitting on our oil reserve, a fat man insisting on eating other people's bread. (although, granted, we're paying for it.)
[...]
I said that the deserting scum bag's assertion that the US went to war in Iraq over oil (and that its a bad excuse to go to war) was dumb. I have never said that that was actually the case.

I was just arguing that even if this guy was right (which he isn't) it would still be a better reason to go to war since if the US was out of oil, our economy would collapse and historicaly wars for resources are one of the most common type.

So his dumb ass excuse to desert was not a very good one.

Conceded. Your harping on how it would be hunkey dorey to go to war for oil even though we really didn't confused me as to your actual point.

Knife wrote:
Sriad wrote:Second, history needs to stop trying to backseat drive on this one. 2a) UN charter, Geneva, etc ad nauseum. 2b) why yes, MOST WARS IN HISTORY WERE UNJUST. What the hell books are you reading? Historically speaking, wars aren't started because the Noble King is riding off to free the enemy nation's people from brutal oppression, they're started because he's actually a Greedy Asshat King out for revenge.
Gee, countries act in self interest. Yeah, they're soooo much different than people. But I suppose that if you lived in some shithole with no money, no food, and jack shit for anything, the though of getting together and taking someone elses shit would NEVER occur to you.

Welcome to war. Welcome to history.

I can't speculate on what I would think if I lived in a shithole with no money, no food, and jack shit for anything, but it occurs to me that we'd LOSE. Maybe we could build a farm and put said shit to some kind of use if we weren't so worried about your friends storming in and stealing our food.
Some rich French wankers discovered human rights in the seventeenth century. Welcome to the feckin' present.

Knife wrote:
Sriad wrote:Which (thirdly) is, when you think about it, actually the case here.
Honestly, I believe that Bushy originaly wished to finish something that was started a decade ago. The corruption and blindingly stupid mistakes happened durring the execution of the war.[/i]

"Greedy Asshat King bent on Revenge" was meant to say that.

I agree with the letter of that statement, but it implies that corruption and blindingly stupid mistakes didn't happen before the war.