Why doesn't Kerry leave the Catholic church?

[Darth Wong]

Question: with all of the news about the Catholic Church trying to sanction Kerry and deny him communion etc., why does Kerry insist on continuing to go to Catholic church? What is it with Catholics who reject the church's teachings but still insist on belonging to it?

[Montcalm]

Must be that some catholics are not seeing through all the hipocrisy and stay in believing the lies.

[Admiral Valdemar]

He believes in the religion, but also in the right to bring the church kicking and screaming into the present and that's why he has views that are often hammered by the Vatican.

There was a good article in New Scientist the other month about his views being something more religious followers should take up rather than do everything the church says to the T.

Maybe it's an act of defiance that he hopes will modernise an otherwise antiquated system of beliefs.

[Gil Hamilton]

Because he wants to get elected. In the eyes of the God-fearing public, leaving his church would look really bad, while staying the the church only looks really bad to conservative catholics who aren't voting for him anyway.

Besides, John Steward said it best. If you disqualified Catholics who didn't follow every single tenet of the church, that knocks their numbers down to three. One of of those people spanks it like a monkey.

[Alferd Packer]

Probably the same reason why most liberal Christians continue to go to church: they pick all the good stuff and ignore the bad stuff, including the minister/priest/whatever employing the "No True Scotsman" fallacy against them.

[General Zod]

the whole brainwashing aspect of the church that makes people continue to cling to it despite anything the church itself may do to shake their subjects' faith. after all, if you leave the church your soul is doomed to hell for eternity!!1111!!!shift!11!one-eleven!.

[MKSheppard]

God damn it Zod, Dump that fucking Sig.....it's 174 Kb in size

[General Zod]

God damn it Zod, Dump that fucking Sig.....it's 174 Kb in size

blah. okay okay, it's changed to something smaller. i really wish people would use the PM function if they have issues with my profile though. . .

[Howedar]

Question: with all of the news about the Catholic Church trying to sanction Kerry and deny him communion etc., why does Kerry insist on continuing to go to Catholic church? What is it with Catholics who reject the church's teachings but still insist on belonging to it?

To my knowledge it's only a few bishops going out on a limb and trying to hurt Kerry, most of the priests aren't going along with it.

At least that's been my (limited) experience over the last few months.

[MKSheppard]

blah. okay okay, it's changed to something smaller. i really wish people would use the PM function if they have issues with my profile though. . .

Zod, We've long had rules on SIGs, on what size they generally have
to be, so that we don't fuck up the formatting on other people's monitors
or slow down people on 56Ks...

[Admiral Valdemar]

On that note, Shep, your height is off by 50 pixels. The rules were 500x100, IIRC.

[General Zod]

blah. okay okay, it's changed to something smaller. i really wish people would use the PM function if they have issues with my profile though. . .

Zod, We've long had rules on SIGs, on what size they generally have
to be, so that we don't fuck up the formatting on other people's monitors
or slow down people on 56Ks...

no issues with that. i'd simply have prefered it if i'd have gotten a PM about it rather than getting jumped on in the main forums is all.

[Howedar]

Okay, the sig is all better, let's stop bitching about it and get back to the thread, eh?

[MKSheppard]

On that note, Shep, your height is off by 50 pixels. The rules were 500x100, IIRC.

Kelly is no longer with us, so we don't have to accomodate her
tiny 640x480 monitor

[Plekhanov]

Question: with all of the news about the Catholic Church trying to sanction Kerry and deny him communion etc., why does Kerry insist on continuing to go to Catholic church? What is it with Catholics who reject the church's teachings but still insist on belonging to it?

I was similarly puzzled the other week when attending a debate held by my Uni’s LGBSoc (Lesbian Gay Bi Society) on behalf of the Lib Dems on the subject “Can we trust the Conservatives new Gay Friendly stance?”. One of the society members asked me “if you get into power what pressure will you put on churches to accept gays” as I was representing the party at the time (and consequently doing my best not to actually answer any questions) I talked about the separation between church and state, the fact that we favoured disestablishing the CofE and pointed out that we were the only party which would end religious organisations opt out from the discrimination laws.

My gut reaction was more along the lines of “How can you embrace who you are and be a Christian? The bible doesn’t seem to like you and its pretty obvious that most other Christians don’t either, also how the hell is the government supposed to change the will of this God bloke you seem to believe in?”

She may have been a Catholic I really don’t know but the logical somersaults she was turning to try and accept her sexuality and remain in the church were just astonishing.

[Admiral Valdemar]

She may have been a Catholic I really don’t know but the logical somersaults she was turning to try and accept her sexuality and remain in the church were just astonishing.

A girl I knew was a Pagan because of such behaviour and I recall once watching her debate another girl, an avid follower of Christ thanks to her CofE childhood, on issues such as marriage, sex and polytheism versus monotheism etc. It could get quite heated, but I always went with my Pagan friend, if only because she was far sexier and accepted atheism.

[HemlockGrey]

In order to purposely infuriate the Chasity and Prayer Club, a gay acquitance of mine created a poster for the Gay-Straight Alliance. It had a carictature of him, dressed in purple, holding a megaphone and shouting "TEN PERCENT IS NOT ENOUGH! RECRUIT, RECRUIT, RECRUIT!"

...just thought I'd share an amusing story with you all.

[Wicked Pilot]

Question: with all of the news about the Catholic Church trying to sanction Kerry and deny him communion etc., why does Kerry insist on continuing to go to Catholic church?

Three reasons: votes, votes, and votes.

[Plekhanov]

Three reasons: votes, votes, and votes.

Well that’s probably preferable to him being just another self-delusional member of the one true faith.

[CrimsonRaine]

Because he wants to get elected. In the eyes of the God-fearing public, leaving his church would look really bad, while staying the the church only looks really bad to conservative catholics who aren't voting for him anyway.

Would have to agree on that one. Not only would it look bad in the Catholic eye, but I see more Catholics who lean more towards Kerry's position rather than have hardcore moral agreement with Catholicism itself. I know many people who say, "Well, I don't agree with this, but I still consider myself a Catholic." As if no one really gives a damn what the Church tells them, but rather, use their own goddamn judgement.

'Raine

[Darth Wong]

Why not go to a different church then? Surely there are enough denominations out there to make it feasible to simply switch, without suddenly appearing "un-Christian" in the eyes of voters.

[Plekhanov]

Why not go to a different church then? Surely there are enough denominations out there to make it feasible to simply switch, without suddenly appearing "un-Christian" in the eyes of voters.

Assuming Kerry is a wholly rational political machine and isn’t a believer leaving the Catholic Church seems to be a big step which risks really pissing off full on Catholics and upsetting moderate Catholics who can’t bring themselves to make the same decision, it’s also likely to bring few perceptible political advantages (unless he maybe joins one of the more extreme protestant groups which would piss off his existing supporters). So unless Kerry’s stupid he isn’t gonna do it.

If on the other hand he’s a true believer, he’s probably as tied up in knots as the rest of them trying to reconcile the real world with his beliefs and will no doubt spend the rest of his life attempting to do so rather than face reality.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Plus, if he did many of my fellow conservatives would run around saying "Kerry is abandoning his faith" or "Catholic Church Kicks out Kerry"

[Gil Hamilton]

Why not go to a different church then? Surely there are enough denominations out there to make it feasible to simply switch, without suddenly appearing "un-Christian" in the eyes of voters.

Probably because he himself believes himself to be Catholic, albeit a liberal one.

[Plekhanov]

Maybe he should join the English Catholic church, Bishop’s here seem to be finding it necessary to soften their "universal truths" somewhat English bishops soften Vatican's moral line

English bishops soften Vatican's moral line

Stephen Bates, religious affairs correspondent
Wednesday May 26, 2004
The Guardian

The Catholic Church in England and Wales will today soften the harsh moralistic language of the Vatican in setting out its most comprehensive moral guidelines for many years to the faithful on how they should live their lives.
The document, called Cherishing Life, approved by the Church's bishops, refrains from the sort of blunt language in which last year the Vatican described gay partnerships as evil. The English bishops say instead that ho mosexual orientation must never be considered sinful or evil in itself -just so long as it is not sexually expressed.

The moderate language reflects the doubts many English Catholics feel about the Vatican's uncompromising stance on some issues of personal morality. Although the Church notionally has 4.3 million members in England and Wales, only about a quarter are regular churchgoers.

Cherishing Life restates the Church's opposition to abortion, divorce, contraception, cloning, embryo research and extra-marital sex but mostly in less censorious terms than hitherto. It suggests there is a difference in degree between preventive contraception measures and those such as the morning after pill which abort conception. But it still says that contraception places a barrier between partners and "suppresses the healthy working of the body".

The 103-page document admits that the Church does not have answers to all the questions of modern living.

It warns: "One should not ... look to the Church to produce concrete answers for every practical question. Priests and bishops will not always be so expert as to have a ready answer to every problem (not even every grave problem)."

Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor, the archbishop of Westminster and leader of the Church, writing in today's Guardian, says: "Each of us is on a journey, a journey back to God. That journey should be exhilarating and life-giving. It also requires us to make difficult moral choices... our overriding obligation is to safeguard and promote the inherent and equal dignity of all human life from its natural beginning to its natural ending."

The document criticises the "me-too" society, the blame culture and social pressures, particularly on the young, to be sexually active and self-conscious about their body image.

It insists that sex should only take place within a married relationship, calls for self-control and chastity, and argues that unmarried couples should not automatically receive the same privileges and benefits as married partners.

The harshest language though continues to be directed at abortion. The document describes the 1967 Abortion Act as having a corrupting effect on British society and its medical profession: "Many thousands of children a year, while still in their mothers' wombs, are being killed not through incompetence or isolated malice, but because of a corrupting ideology."

The bishops, who seven years ago produced a document on social teaching which placed strictures on politicians, are critical of current governments, saying their response to terrorism must be based on justice and law, not on vengeance.

"Overcoming war demands establishing a just interna tional order and building up of a culture in which life is cherished," the document says.

Martin Pendergast, of the Roman Catholic caucus of the Lesbian and Gay Christian Movement, said last night: "The bishops are playing games with words. We are pleased they have moderated the harsh, intemperate, language of the Vatican but they are not prepared to stick their heads above the parapet by challenging it."

Of course they’re still wrong on contraception, abortion, homosexuality and a bunch of other things but at least they’re less stridently wrong than in most of the rest of the world, which is at least a start. Sometimes I’m actually quite proud to be British.