The Jenin Massacre

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2004-05-26 03:17pm

Despite having no idea what this is (I'm vaguely aware that it involves Israel and Palestine), I've been told repeatedly (mostly by Christian fundies) that it is "false". "It never happened." "It's a lie spread by Amensty International."

So...um...what IS the Jenin Massacre, and did it or did it not take place?

Montcalm · Post by **Montcalm** » 2004-05-26 03:24pm

Google is your friend

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-05-26 03:28pm

Christ not again.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-05-26 03:29pm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... r-ann1.jpg

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... -after.jpg

That's all you need to know about the "masscare"

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2004-05-26 03:56pm

Careful, Chrostas will lose his balls and be on you like sausage on pizza~

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-05-26 04:30pm

The Jenin Massacre is a myth.

Jenin was the last city attacked in one of Israelis first major occupation of West bank cities during the current uprising. The armed Palestinian in the city put the several days they warning to good use and heavily fortified the center of the city. The result was several days of heavy fighting when the IDF began its operation. The Palestinians then claimed that hundreds, at one point even thousands had been killed. However they never produced more then a handful of bodies for the press, and the death toll were later placed at approximately 50-armed gunmen killed by the IDF and 50 civilians killed by both sides combined. The IDF lost 23 soldiers, most of them as the result of an ambush in which they where lured into a house filled with bombs, which was complexly destroyed when they where detonated. After that the IDF switched tactics and began bulldozing the buildings and homes in the area of the fighting, rather then risk another ambush by sending troops in to search them. That's what really got things going, with the Palestinians claiming that all the bodies where just hidden under the rubble, they never did dig them up it seems...

This also led to a stream of bullshit that a huge area of the city had been leveled. This once more provided to be false, as you can see from those overhead photos only a small area, comprising of less then 1% of the city was destroyed. In the aftermath there was a call for a UN investigation, which never really accomplished anything because Israel objected to the fact that only a single member of the assembled team had any military experience whatsoever.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2004-05-26 04:31pm

The IDF stormed into Jenin during Operation Defensive Shield. They killed at least 40 unarmed civilians, including one old man in a wheelchair who was machinegunned in spite of having a white flag attatched to his wheelchair. Another unarmed elderly man was crushed to death by Israeli tank crews, who refused to allow his family to pull him from his home. B'Tselem and Human Rights Watch both issued reports charging the IDF with war crimes.

Some Arab papers accused Israel of killing more than 10 times that number, so pro-Likud hucksters use that as an excuse to claim that no innocent people were killed. These fuckers have no shame. Eli Weasel went so far as to claim that although there were no atrocities in Jenin, if there were the IDF didn't want to do it and only did so "with great pain and anguish".

Norman Finkelstein called bullshit on Weasel. If the death and destruction were carried out with such a heavy heart, why did Israeli stormtroopers vandalize a Palestinian pre-school? This action had no military justification and included defacating into a photocopier, of course with "great pain and anguish".

Just another example of the hysterical nature of pro-Israeli propaganda.

Saurencaerthai · Post by **Saurencaerthai** » 2004-05-26 04:36pm

Don't forget to mention the "corpses" that came back to life.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2004-05-26 05:20pm

Ok. Are the other massacres attributed to Israel troops (I heard Wong mention something about "Sabra"...) real or falsified/

Plekhanov · Post by **Plekhanov** » 2004-05-26 05:37pm

Jenin may or may not be a massacre that point is debateable and probably turns upon just how many people have to be killed before an atrocity becomes a massacre. It was however definitely a war crime.

I generally find it better not to refer to the “Jenin Massacre” as you just get into pointless arguments as to whether it qualifies as a massacre or not and get pulled away from the essential point which is the ongoing illegal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza and the appalling repressive system used to sustain it.

Sabra and Chatila are without question massacres though even the Knesset thought they were a bit much which was why Sharon was forced to step down at the time.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-05-26 05:42pm

HemlockGrey wrote:Ok. Are the other massacres attributed to Israel troops (I heard Wong mention something about "Sabra"...) real or falsified/

Some are real, some are fake. Wongs most common example, of an Israeli tank opening fire on a crowd that broke curfew is real though no one can seem to agree on a body count. The main problem being that Israel of course wants something as low as possibul and often only has second hand information based on distant observations, while the Palestinian sources argue amongst themselves, some want to give the truth while others proclaim whatever number they think is the highest the press will believe.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2004-05-26 08:29pm

The other massacres are quite real: Der Yassin, Qibya, Chatilla, Sabran. It's just that Israel's apologists never miss an opportunity to prove that creeps like David Irving aren't the only ones who try to deny well-documented atrocities.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-05-26 08:38pm

Elfdart wrote:The other massacres are quite real: Der Yassin, Qibya, Chatilla, Sabran. It's just that Israel's apologists never miss an opportunity to prove that creeps like David Irving aren't the only ones who try to deny well-documented atrocities.

What is this, stupidity night with Palestinian apologists? First Plekhanov, and now you?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-05-26 08:44pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Elfdart wrote:The other massacres are quite real: Der Yassin, Qibya, Chatilla, Sabran. It's just that Israel's apologists never miss an opportunity to prove that creeps like David Irving aren't the only ones who try to deny well-documented atrocities.
What is this, stupidity night with Palestinian apologists? First Plekhanov, and now you?

Speak for yourself. Elfdart did not deny that the number of people killed at Jenin was massively exaggerated, but he did point out that civilians were killed, and that many of the other massacres attributed to Israel are real. If you have a problem with those statements, perhaps you could explain your reasoning.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-05-26 08:48pm

Darth Wong wrote:If you have a problem with those statements, perhaps you could explain your reasoning.

"Massacre" is a far far overused term by those on the far left to describe
what is an regrettable fact of life in Urban Warfare; when you throw lots
of explosives, gunfire, and shellfire around in a city, people die, even
if you weren't aiming at them.

http://www.marxist.com/MiddleEast/fallu ... sacre.html

If I had the time or the compunction I could probably write up breathless
prose and describe pretty much anything as a "massacre"

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-05-26 08:56pm

Anyway, the Far-Left wouldn't know a REAL massacre, even if it came
up to them and sodomised them:

Alan Clark's Barbarossa wrote: On another occasion, in Minsk itself,

the SD one day took about 280 civilian prisoners from the gaol, led them to a ditch, and shot them. Since the capacity of the ditch was not exhausted, another thirty prisoners were pulled out and also shot . . .

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2004-05-26 09:03pm

How many people were killed in the Boston Massacre?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-05-26 09:04pm

Elfdart wrote:How many people were killed in the Boston Massacre?

Six or so, I think. Might have been a dozen. Not counting the Redcoats who got cobbles chucked at their skulls, dunno if any of them died.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-05-26 09:06pm

SirNitram wrote:Six or so, I think. Might have been a dozen. Not counting the Redcoats who got cobbles chucked at their skulls, dunno if any of them died.

Five. IIRC, John Adams got six of the eight solders on trial exonerated
of all charges

Plekhanov · Post by **Plekhanov** » 2004-05-26 09:07pm

How about the St Valentines Day one?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-05-26 09:08pm

MKSheppard wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Six or so, I think. Might have been a dozen. Not counting the Redcoats who got cobbles chucked at their skulls, dunno if any of them died.
Five. IIRC, John Adams got six of the eight solders on trial exonerated
of all charges

Firing into armed mobs tends to be difficult to peg as a crime, yes.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-05-26 09:08pm

Plekhanov wrote:How about the St Valentines Day one?

Ooof. Two dozen? Three? I wouldn't put it over a hundred. Mobsters being mobsters.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-05-26 09:10pm

Plekhanov wrote:How about the St Valentines Day one?

Now you're getting close.......The "policemen" put the mobsters against
a wall and then gunned them all down with automatic weapons...

Uhm, where do I see IDF troops doing this to the Palestinians?

Plekhanov · Post by **Plekhanov** » 2004-05-26 09:11pm

MKSheppard wrote:"Massacre" is a far far overused term by those on the far left to describe
what is an regrettable fact of life in Urban Warfare; when you throw lots
of explosives, gunfire, and shellfire around in a city, people die, even
if you weren't aiming at them.http://www.marxist.com/MiddleEast/fallu ... sacre.html

If I had the time or the compunction I could probably write up breathless
prose and describe pretty much anything as a "massacre"

Massacre certainly is an overused term (and by no means only by the far left, ever heard a sorts commentator?) however none of the “Palestinian apologists” on this board have used this term to describe Jenin in this thread (personally mainly because it’s a semantic distraction and not worth the effort when there are so many other atrocities deserving of my attention) so I fear that once more your rage is sadly misdirected, if marxism.com pisses you off so much go and pick a fight there, I don’t think you’ll find to many Marxists on this board who’ll object.

Plekhanov · Post by **Plekhanov** » 2004-05-26 09:15pm

SirNitram wrote:
Plekhanov wrote:How about the St Valentines Day one?
Ooof. Two dozen? Three? I wouldn't put it over a hundred. Mobsters being mobsters.

According to a quick search the agreed figure is 7, by american gangster standards Jenin is a massacre several times over.