Gore delivers a verbal carpetbombing on Bush and Iraq

[Elfdart]

A number of soldiers have been killed because they weren't issued kevlar vests, which would have saved their lives. It's gotten to the point that the families of servicemen have been buying kevlar with their own money and shipping it to their sons/ husbands/ brothers (or daughters/ wives/ sisters).

[Icehawk]

A number of soldiers have been killed because they weren't issued kevlar vests, which would have saved their lives. It's gotten to the point that the families of servicemen have been buying kevlar with their own money and shipping it to their sons/ husbands/ brothers (or daughters/ wives/ sisters).

Are you serious?, that sounds like something that would happen to our cash strapped Canadian army, but certainly not the US.

[Elfdart]

Since Bush Sr assembled over half a million just to kick Saddam out of Kuwait, I always thought Numbnuts was going in awfully light. Even assuming Bush Sr was piling on, I think he was closer than his son -and keep in mind Bush Sr had no intention of actually occupying Iraq. Gen. Zinni thought it should at least be 200,000.

Funny how for all the money the Pentagon spends, the actual troops lack body armor and a decent rifle -something US soldiers haven't had in 40 years. Where does all that fucking money go?

[Hamel]

Funny how for all the money the Pentagon spends, the actual troops lack body armor and a decent rifle -something US soldiers haven't had in 40 years. Where does all that fucking money go?

Down the Pentagon's $800 toilets.

[Elfdart]

A number of soldiers have been killed because they weren't issued kevlar vests, which would have saved their lives. It's gotten to the point that the families of servicemen have been buying kevlar with their own money and shipping it to their sons/ husbands/ brothers (or daughters/ wives/ sisters).

Are you serious?, that sounds like something that would happen to our cash strapped Canadian army, but certainly not the US.

My neighbor's kid is in the Marines (and the Corps is better run than the Army) and they've resorted to sewing metal plates to their vests. At least the leaders of Canuckistan have the good sense to not send their under-equipped troops to fight in Iraq. My cousin's husband is in the 82nd Airborne and he told me the same thing.

Another turd is the Stryker. This piece of shit is just a Winnebago -only not as fast or maneuverable. It looks like a super-sized LAV, but can't turn on city streets and is too big to be deployed quickly. The armor sucks and an RPG can perforate it like an icepick through an empty beercan. They spent the mint on this thing and... you might as well pour barbecue sauce on the poor bastards who ride in it. There are so many other things that cost huge amounts of money and get people killed, it's almost comical, except I have high blood pressure. David Hackworth's website is pretty good, since it gets a lot of feedback from soldiers and Marines on the front lines.

[Elfdart]

That was a rhetorical question, but don't worry: They'll fix those $800 toilet seats with $400 screwdrivers.

[MKSheppard]

My neighbor's kid is in the Marines (and the Corps is better run than the Army) and they've resorted to sewing metal plates to their vests. At least the leaders of Canuckistan have the good sense to not send their under-equipped troops to fight in Iraq.

Yes, that's what happens when you go and fight a war on Year 5 of
a seven year (?) equip program for the new ballistic plates/vests.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Right then and there, I fell asleep. I'm getting really sick and tired of the
Left's entire "Geneva Convention" Canard that they keep using over
and over.

You know, let's follow the Geneva convention strictly, and issue hollowpoint
bullets to our troops in Iraq, since they are no longer facing an organized
army in combat, but insurgents who do not fall under the Geneva protections.

Nitpickery.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Inhabitants of non-occupied territory,

You should read what you quote.

Iraq, and the Sunni Triangle, is a occupied territory.

[Elfdart]

It's also what happens when the Administration promises thousands of vests to the Polish and other forces.

A simple stop-gap solution would be what Lucien Truscott ordered during the winter of his campaign in Italy. The waterproof shoes and shoe-packs designed for extreme cold were in short supply and were supposed to be for front-line troops who needed them most. A bunch of REMFs were taking them and the men at the front didn't get any. Finally, Truscott had every last pair collected and sent to the front. He also threatened to have anyone caught wearing them sent to the front.

Even if it's just temporary, the Pentagon should collect every vest kept stateside or in Europe and send them to Iraq until every Marine or soldier who needs one has one. What's truly pitiful is that National Guard units have been issued old Vietnam-era steel-plate vests which weigh a ton and at the most can stop pistol rounds and some shrapnel. Even during Vietnam, SFers like my father didn't even bother with those fucking things, preferring to carry more ammo or grenades instead.

[MKSheppard]

Even if it's just temporary, the Pentagon should collect every vest kept stateside or in Europe and send them to Iraq until every Marine or soldier who needs one has one.

That'd be no mean feat, seeing as the factories are churning them out
as fast as they can. Anyway, heaven forbid that we actually fight
wars according to our procurement schedules.

[MKSheppard]

Nitpickery.

You have something fucking useful to contribute to this, Illuminatus, other
than one word replies?

[MKSheppard]

Are you serious?, that sounds like something that would happen to our cash strapped Canadian army, but certainly not the US.

Like I said earlier. it's what happens when you go to war in the middle
of a seven year procurement cycle intended to replace every vest in the
entire U.S. Army with the new vests.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Its true. You took a huge speech and singled out a single point and dismissed it on that basis. Moreover, its a strawman attack too; what evidence do you have that liberals would be upset over hollowpoints being used against insurgents.

Nothing wrong with calling blue blue, and your nitpicks...nitpicks.

[Elfdart]

Inhabitants of non-occupied territory,

You should read what you quote.

Iraq, and the Sunni Triangle, is a occupied territory.

Fallujah and a few other towns in Iraq weren't occupied during the invasion and weren't occupied until very recently. Certainly, it's enough of a DISPUTE to fall under #5: Fighters and others rounded up are to be treated as POWs until a "competent tribunal" determines otherwise. Those found to be spies, bandits, saboteurs and mercenaries can then be shot. If even a court martial can't condemn them (as Clemenceau wrote "Court martials are to justice what military marches are to music."), then there's no case.

[MKSheppard]

Its true. You took a huge speech and singled out a single point and dismissed it on that basis.

Would you rather me pick apart that speech over ten entire pages of
absolutely boring mind numbng bullshit?

[Elfdart]

Even if it's just temporary, the Pentagon should collect every vest kept stateside or in Europe and send them to Iraq until every Marine or soldier who needs one has one.

That'd be no mean feat, seeing as the factories are churning them out
as fast as they can. Anyway, heaven forbid that we actually fight
wars according to our procurement schedules.

No, but the front-line equipment should go to front-line units first and not promised the Poles or anyone else. Don't tell me that REMFs don't have quite a few. Our troops even get shortchanged on uniforms, too. Notice the Marines in the desert in their GREEN uniform last spring? And the 101st Airborne in their khaki in the valleys of Kurdistan? These items combined probably cost less than the Stryker.

Oh well, it could be worse. Units in the British Army have no body armor at all, leading to a number of needless deaths. Also leading to them begging equipment off the Americans.

[MKSheppard]

No, but the front-line equipment should go to front-line units first and not promised the Poles or anyone else. Don't tell me that REMFs don't have quite a few.

Talking about finding each individual vest and sending it to Iraq really won't do much, at best you gain a few thousand more vests, and there
are other places which do need the vests, such as South Korea....the NKs
love to shoot at our people from time to time for shits and giggles.

We're already doing that though;

http://www.bakersfield.com/state_wire/s ... 2372c.html

Marine Staff Sgt. Marvin Funiestas, 26, of Camp Pendleton, Calif., was found with more than 100 pieces of stolen body armor. Last week, he was convicted in a court-martial and sentenced to 10 years in prison on charges of conspiracy, wrongfully selling government property and larceny.

The shitty fact is, no amount of pleading or "quick fixes" will change the
fact that we are backlogged big time.

[MKSheppard]

The shitty fact is, no amount of pleading or "quick fixes" will change the
fact that we are backlogged big time.

To elaborate:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/1000971.asp?0sl=-43&cp1=1

Now, three manufacturers are working overtime to produce the 80,000 vests and 160,000 plates required to outfit everyone in Iraq by the end of the year. Assembly lines are producing 25,000 sets a month.

And of course, they are ceramic. I wasn't sure if they were metal or
ceramic inserts till I read that. Well, each time a ceramic plate is hit
by an incoming round, it shatters, absorbing the kinetic energy in
doing so. But then it's worthless, and you have to replace the plate...

[Elfdart]

I thought ceramic inserts were like the old bomb squad vests, where steel bars were coated with ceramic material -and weighed some ungodly amount.

Now if they do something about the rifle...

[Icehawk]

Now if they do something about the rifle...

They are, with the HK XM8, but the gun is still under evaluation and it'll be another year or two before full production starts IIRC.

[Elfdart]

But they're insisting that the new rifle fire fire the same 5.56 round the M4/M16 uses. The original design called for a @6.5mm round that would be more powerful. Troops in Afghanistan and Iraq (and Somalia) tried to dig out as many old M14s as they could scrape together because they need something with knockdown power and staydown power. My father and six of my uncles served in Vietnam and /or Korea and they disliked Jane Fonda -but they fucking HATED Eugene Stoner.

[Icehawk]

Their is the new 6.8mm round which is also undergoing testing, it will more than likely fire that.

[Nathan F]

But they're insisting that the new rifle fire fire the same 5.56 round the M4/M16 uses. The original design called for a @6.5mm round that would be more powerful. Troops in Afghanistan and Iraq (and Somalia) tried to dig out as many old M14s as they could scrape together because they need something with knockdown power and staydown power. My father and six of my uncles served in Vietnam and /or Korea and they disliked Jane Fonda -but they fucking HATED Eugene Stoner.

I'm a M14 fan, and am usually the first to jump to it's defence, however, you're being a damn moron.

The M16 is a reliable, easy to operate, accurate rifle that has plenty of takedown power usually. Troops can carry more ammunition, and put a higher volume of fire down on a target much more accurately with an M16 than an M14. The M14 is good for longer range, lower ROF work, the M16 is good for shorter to long range high ROF work. The M16 and it's ammunition is a helluva lot lighter than the M14, which means troops going on longer patrols don't suffer the fatigue that those carrying the M14 do, and it's ability to fire automatically at least somewhat accurately make it much more suited to closer quarters battles, not to mention it's smaller size.

I don't disagree that the M14 should continue to be issued in limited numbers for special uses, and it has a long life ahead of itself, but as a general issue battle rifle, the M16 isn't bad at all.

(Oh, and in case you don't agree with me, just ask my father, who will tell you the exact same thing. He has been in continuous service with the USAF/ANG since about 1969 and is a small arms expert, with training from the USAF, the NRA, and manufacturers on the operation of the M16, M14, M1 Carbine, M1 Garand, M1903 and 03A3, M60, M249, M203, M2, M1911, M92, etc., etc., and serving as a NCOIC of firearms instruction for the 118th AW (TNANG), and armourer for a Tennessee state law enforcement agency. Needless to say, he has the experience and knowledge to know his stuff, and I think I'll believe him before I believe you.)

[Nathan F]

Their is the new 6.8mm round which is also undergoing testing, it will more than likely fire that.

Already undergone testing and is being produced commerically and for the US military for SpecOps.