STGOD 4 OOC Thread

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-05-29 11:39pm

I see.

Well, here's my thing on the whole thing. If people are upset over a bunch of frigates, how long are they expecting me to quietly not participate until I have enough forces to be a credible threat? Keep in mind I'm literally going to have to fight every nation at once, so to be a credible threat, I'll need several times that of a starter. The pace of this drags at very nearly one to one.

If I'm going to be sitting with my thumb up my ass for In-Game Years(And very likely Real Life years from the pacing) before I can do anything but wait for someone to actually make it to my outposts and then let them assrape it as it has no space defense, I don't see much point in bothering. And no, I will not be coming back with a new nation if I abandon this one due to the incredible amount of time I'm expected to wait, that would be childish.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2004-05-29 11:41pm

Oh, yes, and total numbers are 6 supercaps, 20 Cruisers, and 150 Escorts (the Escort/Cruisers were completed in two runs, one which completed around page 30, and the current run, which rounds out the Fleet's escort screen.)

This is a massive military build-up, one which I have not kept secret, and have been "checking up on" with in-game posts since the beginning.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-05-29 11:48pm

I see.

Well, here's my thing on the whole thing. If people are upset over a bunch of frigates, how long are they expecting me to quietly not participate until I have enough forces to be a credible threat?

It depend on industrial base. I can buy a major power turning out a couple capships in three months. It's just when people start turning out hundreds of ships in a few months, I get wary of the notion of a massive flood a high end warships.

I have no problem with Thirdfain cranking out a lot of disposable, quick build ships just like frigates/destroyer escorts really were.

Oh, yes, and total numbers are 6 supercaps, 20 Cruisers, and 150 Escorts (the Escort/Cruisers were completed in two runs, one which completed around page 30, and the current run, which rounds out the Fleet's escort screen.)

This is a massive military build-up, one which I have not kept secret, and have been "checking up on" with in-game posts since the beginning.

Even a massive build up takes time, and I'm wary of the notion of turning out hundreds of ships in a short time. Specifically I'm worried about it going from lots of lights weights into trying to turn it into a hundreds of major warships.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2004-05-29 11:55pm

Even a massive build up takes time, and I'm wary of the notion of turning out hundreds of ships in a short time. Specifically I'm worried about it going from lots of lights weights into trying to turn it into a hundreds of major warships.

Well, they are frigates. Most powers started the STGOD with what, 500 of them? I now have (slightly less than) 30% more small escort firepower than I, or any of the other powers, had at the start of the STGOD. Of course, these vessels won't go toe-to-toe with capital ships. No one's will. I'd expect a power without my massive resource base to be able to crank out 50-100 escorts of similar size and power in about the same amount of time. They would compare favorably, for instance, with your Werewolf and Fang-class escorts.

My cruisers and carriers/cataphracts, on the other hand, are major warships. And there are quite a few of them. I'd expect the two Cataphracts of this run to compare favorably against other power's heavy battleships/Dreadnoughts, while the four attack carriers would compare favorably to other power's battleships/battlecruisers/weaker Fleet Carriers.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2004-05-29 11:56pm

Oh, and to clarify, I cleared this fully with Pablo before posting. I have the moderator's go.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-05-30 12:05am

I suppose. I guess I'll just do a bit of retconning.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-05-30 12:24am

SirNitram wrote:I see.

Well, here's my thing on the whole thing. If people are upset over a bunch of frigates, how long are they expecting me to quietly not participate until I have enough forces to be a credible threat? Keep in mind I'm literally going to have to fight every nation at once, so to be a credible threat, I'll need several times that of a starter. The pace of this drags at very nearly one to one.

The fact that the very threat of your marauding fleet exists has managed to cripple much of the developing rivalries in the STGOD. You did manage to do a good job in damning the Arcanists, even if that did sort of fall through thanks to Alyrium's reset button, but aside from that, the development of a meaningful conflict has been delayed indefinately because we don't know where you are, you have a virtually infinite number of hiding places, so on and so forth. It was your decision to smash the bulk of your forces against Earth in a full frontal assault. You'll still rebuild faster than any other power in the game, but any other power in the game would take quite possibly a decade or more to completely rebuild their fleets from scratch and train crews for them. You have significant advantages in pretty much every respect there as is. Had you not thrown away the bulk of your forces and almost immediately declared war against everyone, you could still be a significant threat.

On a personal note, I'm not a huge fan of the whole "blatantly evil bad guys with hugely superior numbers that everyone must band together to defeat" concept. I like the concept of shades of gray. No government being totally good, or totally evil. From that, conflict arises on its own.

If I'm going to be sitting with my thumb up my ass for In-Game Years(And very likely Real Life years from the pacing) before I can do anything but wait for someone to actually make it to my outposts and then let them assrape it as it has no space defense, I don't see much point in bothering. And no, I will not be coming back with a new nation if I abandon this one due to the incredible amount of time I'm expected to wait, that would be childish.

Unfortunately, your timing was terribly off for your attack. I'm not certain how familiar you are with the backstory behind Heavy Gear, but you just filled the role of the CEF invaders of Terra Nova. Terra Nova's two major power blocks were in the final stages of the Judas Syndrome, and about to launch a major global war that would have crippled both powers. Just as war was about to break out, CEF invades the equator of the planet, between both polar powers, and declares war. Both sides, already on war footing, fight back and beat the unholy living crap out of CEF. Had they waited but a few months to come in, they could have just walked over the existing powers. As it turned out, they had to retreat and lick their wounds for over fifty years.

That is exactly what happened to you. Not only that, but the kicker is this, we don't know if you have any more fleets incoming, so we're going to do our damnedest to kick out as many ships as possible to hunt you down. What annoys me the most is that, as far as I'm concerned, there is going to have to be some sort of constant vigil from this point out in the STGOD against you, even if we managed to destroy the Overseer, because we don't know if you've been destroyed or not, because we don't know if you're really gone or not. Even if you lose, you win.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-05-30 12:32am

Hotfoot wrote:
SirNitram wrote:I see.

Well, here's my thing on the whole thing. If people are upset over a bunch of frigates, how long are they expecting me to quietly not participate until I have enough forces to be a credible threat? Keep in mind I'm literally going to have to fight every nation at once, so to be a credible threat, I'll need several times that of a starter. The pace of this drags at very nearly one to one.
The fact that the very threat of your marauding fleet exists has managed to cripple much of the developing rivalries in the STGOD. You did manage to do a good job in damning the Arcanists, even if that did sort of fall through thanks to Alyrium's reset button, but aside from that, the development of a meaningful conflict has been delayed indefinately because we don't know where you are, you have a virtually infinite number of hiding places, so on and so forth. It was your decision to smash the bulk of your forces against Earth in a full frontal assault. You'll still rebuild faster than any other power in the game, but any other power in the game would take quite possibly a decade or more to completely rebuild their fleets from scratch and train crews for them. You have significant advantages in pretty much every respect there as is. Had you not thrown away the bulk of your forces and almost immediately declared war against everyone, you could still be a significant threat.

It would have been trivially easy to simply pull my fleet away from Terra as the massive fleet approached. Given how several posters were out for blood OOCly as well as in the game, I didn't want to simply go 'nyah nyah, I get away', it would come off as cheesy and childish. I doubt anyone will claim they would have been pleased by such a move.

On a personal note, I'm not a huge fan of the whole "blatantly evil bad guys with hugely superior numbers that everyone must band together to defeat" concept. I like the concept of shades of gray. No government being totally good, or totally evil. From that, conflict arises on its own.

On a personal note, I don't care if you are in love with the idea or hate it. There are, of course, shades of grey within the Overseer and the fight against it; it's not simply killing for the fuck of it, but no one is caring enough to actually find that out.

If I'm going to be sitting with my thumb up my ass for In-Game Years(And very likely Real Life years from the pacing) before I can do anything but wait for someone to actually make it to my outposts and then let them assrape it as it has no space defense, I don't see much point in bothering. And no, I will not be coming back with a new nation if I abandon this one due to the incredible amount of time I'm expected to wait, that would be childish.
Unfortunately, your timing was terribly off for your attack. I'm not certain how familiar you are with the backstory behind Heavy Gear, but you just filled the role of the CEF invaders of Terra Nova. Terra Nova's two major power blocks were in the final stages of the Judas Syndrome, and about to launch a major global war that would have crippled both powers. Just as war was about to break out, CEF invades the equator of the planet, between both polar powers, and declares war. Both sides, already on war footing, fight back and beat the unholy living crap out of CEF. Had they waited but a few months to come in, they could have just walked over the existing powers. As it turned out, they had to retreat and lick their wounds for over fifty years.

That is exactly what happened to you. Not only that, but the kicker is this, we don't know if you have any more fleets incoming, so we're going to do our damnedest to kick out as many ships as possible to hunt you down. What annoys me the most is that, as far as I'm concerned, there is going to have to be some sort of constant vigil from this point out in the STGOD against you, even if we managed to destroy the Overseer, because we don't know if you've been destroyed or not, because we don't know if you're really gone or not. Even if you lose, you win.

Yes. That was the intention. I wanted to do something that changed this from endless politicking and wringing of hands.

I'm staying hidden for the simple reasons of:

1) I want to actually rebuild enough of a fleet to strike back. I've managed to badly wound two homeworlds, but I've never met anyone in straight up fleet combat.

2) It's the fucking intelligent thing to do.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-05-30 12:32am

Thirdfain wrote:Oh, and to clarify, I cleared this fully with Pablo before posting. I have the moderator's go.

Okay, so then what's the numbers for an "average" nation's shipbuilding limit? I don't recall anything being stated as to what directly determines it. If this is what you can build in 3 months, supercaps included, then I will go back and change my own build orders as well to show that I am in fact on war footing, because right now my piddling 5 cruisers, 45 escorts, and one half a battleship is a pathetic fraction of what you have churned out.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-05-30 12:35am

Hotfoot wrote:
Thirdfain wrote:Oh, and to clarify, I cleared this fully with Pablo before posting. I have the moderator's go.
Okay, so then what's the numbers for an "average" nation's shipbuilding limit? I don't recall anything being stated as to what directly determines it. If this is what you can build in 3 months, supercaps included, then I will go back and change my own build orders as well to show that I am in fact on war footing, because right now my piddling 5 cruisers, 45 escorts, and one half a battleship is a pathetic fraction of what you have churned out.

The problem is there isn't any real average. And some things that affect what's reasonable are things like war footing, industry, and frankly national setup.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2004-05-30 12:42am

-shrug- I came into this game on a war footing, and have been in one conflict or another for more or less the whole thing- mostly against incompotent opponents.

As for the average, well, this build-up was never secret. It's scale has been mentioned more than once, and it's been taking place in the Hudson system, where the significant foreign traffic couldn't help but see it. If you plannd on matching it, you should have done something about it or worked to match it.

As I said, I've not kept this in the dark, and I'm surprised people are treating it as such. I don't know how much a smaller power just recently mobilizing would be able to produce in the same ammount of time, but I don't doubt it would be less- maybe half as much, I don't know.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-05-30 12:50am

If you plannd on matching it, you should have done something about it or worked to match it.

I don't think he's trying to outbuild you so much as he's looking for a baseline. I know that was a bit of a problem in the first game for people that haven't played. And I don't think the answer was any better than watch, pay attention, and go with the flow.

As I said, I've not kept this in the dark, and I'm surprised people are treating it as such.

It's the sheer number. That's a whole fuckload of frigates compared what other people were assuming for reasonable build rates. And with out posted under construction numbers it probably suprised people.

I don't know how much a smaller power just recently mobilizing would be able to produce in the same ammount of time, but I don't doubt it would be less- maybe half as much, I don't know

It depends, again some powers would have a better out put than others. The best thing people can do is take honest stock of their nation and it's situation and just take a reasonable guess.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-05-30 12:51am

SirNitram wrote:It would have been trivially easy to simply pull my fleet away from Terra as the massive fleet approached. Given how several posters were out for blood OOCly as well as in the game, I didn't want to simply go 'nyah nyah, I get away', it would come off as cheesy and childish. I doubt anyone will claim they would have been pleased by such a move.

I wasn't a huge fan on the attack on Earth in the first place, personally. It was a move that seemed to have one single purpose: piss off everyone involved in the ball and get them after you. Only now you get to say "Nyah nyah I'm in every uninhabited system you don't have you can't find me." Which is worse?

On a personal note, I don't care if you are in love with the idea or hate it. There are, of course, shades of grey within the Overseer and the fight against it; it's not simply killing for the fuck of it, but no one is caring enough to actually find that out.

You may intended for there to be an interesting story with dark gray shades, but right now, none of the powers involved really care that much, and I can't say you really gave anyone the incentive to care in the game. You are, as far as everyone in game is concerned, an evil power with destruction on the mind. As a result, everyone has to come take care of you now and ignore their own problems, fight together, former foes become friends, blah blah blah.

Yes. That was the intention. I wanted to do something that changed this from endless politicking and wringing of hands.

Except that you only brought on more of it by the way you did things. Now governments that might be at actual honest to goodness war with each other are now trying to maintain peaceful relations with each other because if they get into a war now, they're a ripe target for the Overseer Bogeyman.

I'm staying hidden for the simple reasons of:

1) I want to actually rebuild enough of a fleet to strike back. I've managed to badly wound two homeworlds, but I've never met anyone in straight up fleet combat.

Fair enough, you want to have actual fleet combat. The first target you picked was one that had virtually no fleet to speak of, and the second one was silly enough to have its entire fleet elsewhere. If you wanted fleet combat, you could have:
A. Chosen a first target with a fleet
B. Waited until war broke out and gone hog wild.

2) It's the fucking intelligent thing to do.

Of course it is. It's also just as annoying as you turning your fleet away from Earth as reinforcements came along, if not more so.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2004-05-30 12:54am

As a result, everyone has to come take care of you now and ignore their own problems, fight together, former foes become friends, blah blah blah.

I'm not sure which STGOD you've been playing.

I've sure as hell been playing a dozen different violent games against my foes, and I've been using the Machines as a tool, not as a distraction from my real enemies. Anyone else can do the same.

Now governments that might be at actual honest to goodness war with each other are now trying to maintain peaceful relations with each other because if they get into a war now, they're a ripe target for the Overseer Bogeyman.

Once again, a tool I've been using broadly and effectively. The Overseer threat is months in the future- plenty of time to fuck a few players over and have a nice interstellar war.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-05-30 12:56am

Stormbringer wrote:
If you plannd on matching it, you should have done something about it or worked to match it.
I don't think he's trying to outbuild you so much as he's looking for a baseline.

That's exactly it. I'm not looking to outbuild people, but assuming I have a roughly comparable starting industry, I'd like to know what would be reasonable to assume I could churn out in roughly the same amount of time. As it stands, I'm only building 1/3 of your escorts (and these are of varying types, not just frigates), 1/4 of your cruiser scale ships, and 1/8 to 1/12 of your supercaps. That's way under, considering I said myself that I was going on war footing pretty early on.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-05-30 12:59am

Hotfoot wrote:
SirNitram wrote:It would have been trivially easy to simply pull my fleet away from Terra as the massive fleet approached. Given how several posters were out for blood OOCly as well as in the game, I didn't want to simply go 'nyah nyah, I get away', it would come off as cheesy and childish. I doubt anyone will claim they would have been pleased by such a move.
I wasn't a huge fan on the attack on Earth in the first place, personally. It was a move that seemed to have one single purpose: piss off everyone involved in the ball and get them after you. Only now you get to say "Nyah nyah I'm in every uninhabited system you don't have you can't find me." Which is worse?

If I were actually doing that, it would be worse. Since what I'm doing is giving people places to go and blow up, I would wager it's not as bad. Since there's going to be a map on the base if it's captured, it's much less bad.

If this is going to degenerate into you claiming every one of my moves is something it isn't, say so now.

On a personal note, I don't care if you are in love with the idea or hate it. There are, of course, shades of grey within the Overseer and the fight against it; it's not simply killing for the fuck of it, but no one is caring enough to actually find that out.
You may intended for there to be an interesting story with dark gray shades, but right now, none of the powers involved really care that much, and I can't say you really gave anyone the incentive to care in the game. You are, as far as everyone in game is concerned, an evil power with destruction on the mind. As a result, everyone has to come take care of you now and ignore their own problems, fight together, former foes become friends, blah blah blah.

Hey, if people are naive enough to ignore threats like the Ousters, it's not my problem.

And if no one's doing a damn thing about the shades of grey I have made sure were there and detectable, then it's not my fault and you shouldn't whine at me about the Overseer being a straight evil villain. You should whine about those who ignore it and simply nod your head to the 'The Overseer is a mindless killing machine' crowd. Then again, the underlying evidence of the whys are wherefores isn't hidden away; maybe you should do something since you claim to prefer such.

Yes. That was the intention. I wanted to do something that changed this from endless politicking and wringing of hands.
Except that you only brought on more of it by the way you did things. Now governments that might be at actual honest to goodness war with each other are now trying to maintain peaceful relations with each other because if they get into a war now, they're a ripe target for the Overseer Bogeyman.

Or government propaganda can link them to the Overseer, so it's off to kill our old enemies! Or did the obvious message with the Arcanists not sink in?

I'm staying hidden for the simple reasons of:

1) I want to actually rebuild enough of a fleet to strike back. I've managed to badly wound two homeworlds, but I've never met anyone in straight up fleet combat.
Fair enough, you want to have actual fleet combat. The first target you picked was one that had virtually no fleet to speak of, and the second one was silly enough to have its entire fleet elsewhere. If you wanted fleet combat, you could have:
A. Chosen a first target with a fleet
B. Waited until war broke out and gone hog wild.

I hadn't realized Straha had decided to piss away his entire fleet in favor of ground troops, thus giving him not a single way to stop the Overseer. In my mind, I cannot help but conclude it's a painfully ridiculous plan, so I didn't prepare for it.

The lightning strike on Tycho's nation is because I don't have the forces to go up against fleets, now, not when they pull this ridiculous 'I throw everything AND the kitchen sink into this battle!'.

2) It's the fucking intelligent thing to do.
Of course it is. It's also just as annoying as you turning your fleet away from Earth as reinforcements came along, if not more so.

'Cuz we know I didn't reveal a base that was ripe for attack and happens to have intel for the gathering.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-05-30 01:01am

Hotfoot wrote:You may intended for there to be an interesting story with dark gray shades, but right now, none of the powers involved really care that much, and I can't say you really gave anyone the incentive to care in the game. You are, as far as everyone in game is concerned, an evil power with destruction on the mind. As a result, everyone has to come take care of you now and ignore their own problems, fight together, former foes become friends, blah blah blah.

That's one way to look at it. I am sure, however, that Nitram has something terribly clever being planned and he's just waiting for the right moment to spring it on us all. What his plan might entail... well, fuck, I've no idea whatsoever. But I have faith in his villainy.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-05-30 01:02am

Thirdfain wrote:I'm not sure which STGOD you've been playing.

I've sure as hell been playing a dozen different violent games against my foes, and I've been using the Machines as a tool, not as a distraction from my real enemies. Anyone else can do the same.

You're a notable exception to the rule. Most everyone else has been banding together to fight the machines.

Once again, a tool I've been using broadly and effectively. The Overseer threat is months in the future- plenty of time to fuck a few players over and have a nice interstellar war.

Ah, but here's the problem, unless you're privy to some in-character information the rest of us don't know about, the threat of the machines is very much an immediate one. There is nothing saying that there is not another Overseer warfleet waiting to be smashed against another homeworld when our backs are turned. We are not aware of some cosmic rule that states that fleets can only be so large on first contact, and no larger.

Meanwhile, the threat of the ever-expanding Ousters is itself months in the future. You're hideously overextended, we know now where you live, and even with your new fleets, you can't adequately defend your home territories. Plus, if you start a war, then in a few months when the Overseer comes back with a new fleet, you'll be ripe for the plucking, along with everyone else involved.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2004-05-30 01:07am

Meanwhile, the threat of the ever-expanding Ousters is itself months in the future. You're hideously overextended, we know now where you live, and even with your new fleets, you can't adequately defend your home territories. Plus, if you start a war, then in a few months when the Overseer comes back with a new fleet, you'll be ripe for the plucking, along with everyone else involved.

Strategic disadvantages aside, I think it's a little premature to say that my threat is "months in the future

" Have a little faith in my ability to play the game!

Ah, but here's the problem, unless you're privy to some in-character information the rest of us don't know about, the threat of the machines is very much an immediate one. There is nothing saying that there is not another Overseer warfleet waiting to be smashed against another homeworld when our backs are turned. We are not aware of some cosmic rule that states that fleets can only be so large on first contact, and no larger.

The failure of the Overseer to use more than small forces in his raid on Halo suggests that he has few or no heavy units left; additionally, large fleet movements out beyond Known Space would now be detected, thanks to the drone program we've all so happily set up.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-05-30 01:07am

Hotfoot wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:
If you plannd on matching it, you should have done something about it or worked to match it.
I don't think he's trying to outbuild you so much as he's looking for a baseline.
That's exactly it. I'm not looking to outbuild people, but assuming I have a roughly comparable starting industry, I'd like to know what would be reasonable to assume I could churn out in roughly the same amount of time. As it stands, I'm only building 1/3 of your escorts (and these are of varying types, not just frigates), 1/4 of your cruiser scale ships, and 1/8 to 1/12 of your supercaps. That's way under, considering I said myself that I was going on war footing pretty early on.

Well, you might wish to look at Darksider since he's a decent baseline. I personally have been on war footing since day one and because my power(s) I have go in for military heavy industry on an almost Soviet scale they're at something of an avantage for military building.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-05-30 01:15am

Thirdfain wrote:
Ah, but here's the problem, unless you're privy to some in-character information the rest of us don't know about, the threat of the machines is very much an immediate one. There is nothing saying that there is not another Overseer warfleet waiting to be smashed against another homeworld when our backs are turned. We are not aware of some cosmic rule that states that fleets can only be so large on first contact, and no larger.
The failure of the Overseer to use more than small forces in his raid on Halo suggests that he has few or no heavy units left; additionally, large fleet movements out beyond Known Space would now be detected, thanks to the drone program we've all so happily set up.

Within the mindset the Galaxy has created for itself about the Overseer, this is perfectly logical; after all, they tell themselves it's out to obliterate all life, yet only two attacks have been made.

Of course, this hinges on the pundits being right, despite evidence to the contrary showing up, and of course, the infamous alliance with the mages. It starts to look like it wasn't out to destroy all life, but politicians, riding the wave of 'We must defend ourselves; so vote for me and approve the military spending plan!' are unlikely to look too hard at the fact the Overseer's actions are inconsistant with a mindless automata out to kill everything.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-05-30 01:15am

Hotfoot wrote:On a personal note, I'm not a huge fan of the whole "blatantly evil bad guys with hugely superior numbers that everyone must band together to defeat" concept. I like the concept of shades of gray. No government being totally good, or totally evil. From that, conflict arises on its own.

There are just a couple problems with your philosophy.

1) Evil is relative. According to your nation's morals, the vampires are extremely evil but what they're doing makes perfect sense to them. They believe themselves to be a superior race (which they actually happen to be) and they refuse to slow down for the weak. They take what they need: wealth, labor, resources, blood.

Now--democratic and moralist nations would probably fire off a barrage of editorials decrying this amoral arrangement for a nation to rest on. But the vampire philosophy isn't even particularly offensive to several other nations! The Arcanists didn't have a big problem with the vampires, they were displaying nothing more than a more extreme version of the oligarchal structure that the mages themselves employed. And the Ousters have a similar Darwinian outlook.

2) The concept of all the powers being roughly equal in strength is unprecedented in history. It has never happened. In fact, an extreme imbalance of national strength has been far more common throughout history.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-05-30 01:25am

SirNitram wrote:If I were actually doing that, it would be worse. Since what I'm doing is giving people places to go and blow up, I would wager it's not as bad. Since there's going to be a map on the base if it's captured, it's much less bad.

I don't get it, why would there be a map?

If this is going to degenerate into you claiming every one of my moves is something it isn't, say so now.

I'm telling you how I see your moves as you have presented them. If you want to clarify, please do.

Hey, if people are naive enough to ignore threats like the Ousters, it's not my problem.

See my point to Thirdfain concerning the everpresent threat of your fleets has. Meanwhile, the Ousters have been quite subtle in their moves. Think about it, who would you be more concerned about, insane robots who have no problem throwing away an entire fleet to destroy a single planet, or a group of relatively questionable expansionists who haven't yet started open hostilities, and have done a damn fine job of covering their asses this whole time?

Gee, I wonder.

And if no one's doing a damn thing about the shades of grey I have made sure were there and detectable, then it's not my fault and you shouldn't whine at me about the Overseer being a straight evil villain.

Yes, the Overseer is insane. Poor Overseer, I feel so sorry for the paranoid schizophrenic robot. Actions speak louder than words, and the attack on Terra drowns out pretty much everything else you've done with the Overseer.

You should whine about those who ignore it and simply nod your head to the 'The Overseer is a mindless killing machine' crowd. Then again, the underlying evidence of the whys are wherefores isn't hidden away; maybe you should do something since you claim to prefer such.

Look, I know what you're talking about, and I sympathize with your position somewhat, what with people assuming to know what the Overseer has said his intentions were and such, and the blatant ignoring of the security tapes with Raistlin and discarding them as fake right away is silly. However, the fact remains that none of that changes the fact that you still attacked Earth with a massive suicide fleet, we don't know when you might do it again, or with what, so our primary concern is getting rid of you. You are a clear and present threat to the galaxy.

Or government propaganda can link them to the Overseer, so it's off to kill our old enemies! Or did the obvious message with the Arcanists not sink in?

It would have worked better if you had developed more than just the one base in Arcanist space, implicated more than just the Arcanists, and had the Arcanists not up and left (which we can't do much about at the moment, sadly). Meanwhile, that thread will continue, but chances are level heads will prevail as things are going now.

I hadn't realized Straha had decided to piss away his entire fleet in favor of ground troops, thus giving him not a single way to stop the Overseer. In my mind, I cannot help but conclude it's a painfully ridiculous plan, so I didn't prepare for it.

You could have read his order of battle before you attacked, which would have given you a hint. It wasn't exactly a state secret that his navy sucked.

The lightning strike on Tycho's nation is because I don't have the forces to go up against fleets, now, not when they pull this ridiculous 'I throw everything AND the kitchen sink into this battle!'.

Hey, don't get me wrong, I enjoyed your slapping Tycho around a bit, he deserved it. Of course, you could have also gone up against Thirdfain, seeing as how he has had his entire fleet away from home since the very beginning of the STGOD.

'Cuz we know I didn't reveal a base that was ripe for attack and happens to have intel for the gathering.

One base out of...how many? We don't know, and it doesn't matter if you flat out tell us here and now how many you have total, because the end result will be the same no matter what happens, a constant level of paranoia of the unknown forces of the Overseer.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2004-05-30 01:28am

Hey, don't get me wrong, I enjoyed your slapping Tycho around a bit, he deserved it. Of course, you could have also gone up against Thirdfain, seeing as how he has had his entire fleet away from home since the very beginning of the STGOD.

A million bucks to the guy in the Jager!

Of course, it's too late now. The 4th War Cluster will arrive at home before any conceivable attack now...

Ah, shucks, people.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-05-30 01:29am

Thirdfain wrote:Strategic disadvantages aside, I think it's a little premature to say that my threat is "months in the future " Have a little faith in my ability to play the game!

It's still further in the future than the possibility of another strike by the Overseer, which is a far more pressing matter.

The failure of the Overseer to use more than small forces in his raid on Halo suggests that he has few or no heavy units left; additionally, large fleet movements out beyond Known Space would now be detected, thanks to the drone program we've all so happily set up.

How many people know about the raid on Halo, in character? Last I checked, Tycho said his homeworld's location was a secret to everyone except the Krytos, and I don't remember him telling anyone that he was attacked by a smaller force of machines.