Creating A Scifi Universe; A collaborative effort

[Thirdfain]

Besides, "Spacelings" sounds silly. The rest of your stuff is gravy, though- I like the history of the UF, very well written.

[18-Till-I-Die]

What about ground forces? Anyone have any ideas?

*raises hand enthusiastically*

[Stofsk]

It doesn't involve cybernetic monsters who shoot laser beams from their eyes, and farts of nerve gas from their arse?

I think just a futuristic trooper would do; nothing terribly flash is needed. What did you have in mind?

[18-Till-I-Die]

It doesn't involve cybernetic monsters who shoot laser beams from their eyes, and farts of nerve gas from their arse?

I think just a futuristic trooper would do; nothing terribly flash is needed. What did you have in mind?

I was thinking something akin to the Colonial Marines from StarCraft, a few steps up from what we have now, but not like Master C or anything. Better armor, of course, and better weapons than we have now, but nothing outlandish. The Earthers, i think, would rely more on numbers and tanks. Less firepower, less armor, more sheer numbers, big tanks...like Imperial Guard regiments from 40. They swarm you in light infantry, but also rely heavily on tank battalions for backup.

Also, i think their weapons would be differnt. The colonials would mostly haeve gauss rifles, rocket launchers, grenade luanchers and other slug throwers, while the Earthers have rifles and pistols akin to PPGs from B5, and heavy eergy weapons like lasers and particle cannons.

[Stofsk]

Pablo, I just reread your nation states description: what the hell happened to China's population?

[Bob McDob]

while the 'Selenians' would be in the same boat - ie they'll have more alike with the Spacers and UF than anywhere else.

The way I had it reasoned was that the moon is a lot closer to Earth than the asteroid belt, and as the first colonized settlement of Earth held a great amount of prestige. As the Earth nations watch colony after colony splinter off with not a damn thing they could do, they naturally began to value Luna (Selenia? Selen?) that much more. (Also, by this point several nations are economically dependent on the moon for raw materials, and view it as an intrinsic part of their own nations). Meanwhile, the Selenians themselves are clamoring for independence from Earth, but unable to gain any sort of momentum, despite limited self-government some Earth nations offer.

(Also, there's the whole sphere of influence thing - if Earth can't even control their own lunar colonies, how the hell can they be expected to pose any sort of threat to anyone but themselves?)

Pablo, I just reread your nation states description: what the hell happened to China's population?

Violent civil war followed by reunification and centralization?

[speaker-to-trolls]

This seems like as good a time as any to throw my own idea for a race into the melting pot.

The Barskions.
Basically these things have a symbiotic relationship with these giant plantlike organisms called 'Growths', they are essentially a really, really, really advanced immune system. They are so good, in fact, that they destroy a threat to their Growth before it has attacked. Once they realised that the greatest threat to their home Growth was the existence of other Growths to steal their resources they started fighting, but since they realise their Growth has to reproduce, they planted the seeds as far away as possible, and that's what they're still doing to this day, planting them on other planets. This means there are innumerable little states run by these things across the universe. Technology varies from planet to planet, but it is all interstellar, though not all faster than light.
Physically they are purple monkey-like reptiles with purple or blue scales, four eyes and two antenna, about the size of a large chimp. They go through three stages, infant, thinker and breeder. Infant and thinker are eseentially the same as childhood and adulthood with us, but the breeder stage turns them into a sort of nonsentient queen-ant thing, and is only brought on when a thinker of a certain age ingests a type of pollen created by the Growths. They live to protect the growths but some states will deal with aliens if they don't think they are a threat.

My idea, reject at your leisure.

[Bob McDob]

To be perfectly honest, I've never really liked the depiction of aliens in sci-fi - except, perhaps, for anti-humanoid types like the Horta. To me, alien means truly alien - in both thought and appearance. Recent sci-fi is getting better at the old "let's just slap a couple of thingies onto a human and call it an alien" gag, but it still faces a crucial problem. Namely, the thought processes.

I've heard that Stansilaw Lem addressed the issue of alien thought in Solaris, but I've neither read the book nor seen the movies. I think that's a good point, though - who's to say that a six- brained mud creature from the planet Elohtihs will think in terms remotely like humans? And when writing science fiction, how do you go about making your alien characters sympathetic, without making them feel like humans in different costumes? I liked the dog-people in Fire upon the Deep because the psychic bond between members of a pact made them seem suitably alien, and yet the personalities were comfortingly human. Deepness in the Sky, I'll admit I couldn't go through half the book because Vinge seemed intent on trying to humanize the spider-people like he had the dog-people. Which is fine, except THESE ARE SPIDER PEOPLE. Writing for them as if they were human was, for me, a big turn-off.

Personally, I think that if you're going to make an alien, you should go all the way. Namely, max out the weirdness and grotesqueness factor to the limits of however far you're going to go. (Thankfully, this universe seems to draw the line at bioships and other science fantasy realm - it's always nice to have limits on this sort of thing). We've already agreed on two or three detailed, probably sentient races, so we have no excuse not to throw them around in the extremes. Make something like the Rlaan from Vega Strike or something from Barlow's Expeditions.

I think one of the major issues this universe will have to address is how to deal with aliens and purer "sciency-fictiony" elements. When you add aliens, it more than not changes the whole dynamic of a universe. Take a look at, say, Honor Harrington, Dune, Battletech - all of them have very detailed, fleshed-out human empires, and a concern for the politics that governs them. Now look at Star Trek or Babylon 5, and you'll see that more often than not the aliens have replaced humans as providing the cultural contrast. Multicultural "one-galaxy*" empires like Star Wars are a rarity, and probably not relevant to the 17th-century dynamic you seem to be gravitating towards.

So what to do about aliens? My preference t would be to make them as anti-communicative as possible - maybe make it so we know about the aliens, and they know about us, and we've made a pact to more or less leave each other alone. Dialogue between "us" and "them" (us being the disunited states of humanity) would be simplistic and rudimentary. Maybe a story could be dedicated to linguistics, on breaking the language barrier. This would help keep each more or less self-contained, and allow us to flesh out each race (including humanity) in greater detail.

Of course, all this is totally dependent on what kind of stories you want to be able to tell. I'd like to think that it's possible to make a universe so large and detailed anything can be told on it, but the only thing I can think of is Star Wars, which, no offense, seems to become more and more consertative every year.

(So speaker-to-trolls, what does this have to do with your idea? Nothing, really. I actually rather like your idea, up to the point of them being purple monkey-like reptiles - what does that mean?

(*Yes, I know the Republic-Empire doesn't cover the entire galaxy. Shut up)

[18-Till-I-Die]

Well, if the Humans represent Europeans and their colonies, the aliens could be like other nations, China and the Middle East, even some native 'Primitives' if we can swing it that way. Personally i find it better when aliens seem more human, as it seems to say "See, they arent that different, even if they are six-brained mud people". It helps connect with the character. And because, honestly, how do you write something even remotly 'alien' to the human mind, as we're HUMAN, you know. It's better to explain superficial differneces, cultural differences, and such than actual psychological ones, IMHO.

[speaker-to-trolls]

So speaker-to-trolls, what does this have to do with your idea? Nothing, really. I actually rather like your idea, up to the point of them being purple monkey-like reptiles - what does that mean?

It was a physical description, they look like a cross between a monkey and a lizard, with scales and a lizard-like snout but a prehensile tale and toes as well. I can understand why you might not be happy with that, particularly the purple bit.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Pablo, I just reread your nation states description: what the hell happened to China's population?

I'm extrapolating current trends. China is currently running a very aggressive population reduction program that is making inroads, and they would be the power with both the resources and the cause to relieve their surplus population with space colonialism. (USNA and Slavic Hegemony, the other two superpowers, both have lower populations and far more free territory on Earth).

[Typhonis 1]

what sort of timeline are we looking at? how far into the future will these stories take place?

[CaptainChewbacca]

Hi there, I'm back, and I am very pleased that so many of you contributed to our universe. That said, I now have to step in and do some very heavy-handed things in the interests of progress.

First; Aliens.

I'm gonna have to say no to aliens at the moment. They're a wild-card, and right now our universe is frail enough. Let's work to keep aliens limited, and as of now no alien race humanity has encountered is capable of fielding a spaceship. That being said, once we have some well-established contributors, we will look into introducing aliens.

Second; Earth.

Its the big stumbling block here. I like a factioned earth, but some are right in saying the lines are a bit absolute and arbitrary. However, there's no way you could expect Uganda or Thailand or Belize to remain completely independent of their neighboring superstates. So, here's the map;

North American Union
Major Members US, Canada, Mexico, Panama, El Salvador, Cuba, Jamaica. The rest of the Carribbean and central America generally allow the NAU to speak for them and let their roads pass through in exchange for military protection and access to space, but occasionally make independent deals with Brazil, the South-American League, or anyone selling. A major source of conflict is between the NAU, SAL, and Brazil over resources and islands in the Caribbean sea, as well as narcotics interdiction.

The Republic of Brazil
Brazil fixed its poverty and tapped its resources, and prosperity brought expansion. Paraguay, Uruguay, and Surinam turned to Brazil for protection against the warlords of the South American League. French Guyana was purchased outright from the EU in exchange for trade and resource concessions. A largely egalitarian and democratic nation, it persues peaceful expansion in space and has a number of colonies in the solar system. During the freeholds-war, it lost many of its industrial settlements, though it is making a comeback.

The South American League
Columbia, Venezuela, Ecuador, Argentina, and Bolivia united for both Catholicism and profit. The drug lords of the northwest amassed enough power to declare themselves de-facto authority in columbia, venezuela, and ecuador. From there, they expanded militarily to neighboring nations, fostering autocratic regimes. Chile and Guyana remain independent, and receive aid from both superpowers.

The European Union
Its what we know it as now, but the UK refuses to fully integrate, as a large fraction of its government doesn't want to be tied to the continent and wants to persue a greater anglo-union with North America. The EU stands very firm against the West-Asian Hegemony and denies them expansion into former slavic territories.

The West-Asian Hegemony
Russia, the Ukraine, and Khazakstan got it started, and it scooped up most of the "stans" and Georgia. They pool their resources with Russia's experience to try and make the stars their own. Armenia and Turkmenistan refuse integration, and Turkmenistan often plays the Hegemony against the Caliphate for resources and aid.

The Caliphate
An all-encompassing Islamic nation, it holds the least resources of any of the superstates. Iran, Iraq, Turkey, and the other gulf states came together after oil stopped being a vital resource and decided to figure out what they have. It wasn't much. Other members were poor islamic states like Pakistan, Afghanistan, Sudan, and many north-african states. Indonesia is an odd member, in that its people want to be in the Caliphate, but its leaders support stronger ties with the pacific powers. The Caliphate leases space in interplanetary shipping from the Hegemony, and continues to try and acquire resources by fostering african wars.

Israel
I'm gonna say it got nuked by someone sometime. Sorry, but its not a player.

West-African Alliance.
A corporate collective of nations selling rarities like diamonds, natural gas, and others, there's little law except what you can buy. The West-African Alliance often butts heads with the Caliphate in either proxy-wars or full-scale wars.

New Delhi League
A nation comprised of what was India before it factioned into its 20th century form. It includes Sri-Lanka as well. Delhi's large, educated population lends itself to exploitation of space, and it is currently fighting wars of conquest against the freeholders, the Signans, and other earth nations outside the solar system. The Delhi shipyards are considered on-par with the Federation's for technical expertise.

The Greater Republic of China
China, Southeast Asia, and Taiwan were annexed or conquered by China. Its population has reduced, and communism has left. It is currently goverened by an oligarchy of corporate heads and elected officials to keep the people happy. Malaysia and Myanmyar remain independent of the two continental powers, though Myanmar's freedom is more tenuous. China and Delhi are openly hostile towards each-other, and war seems imminent.

Pacific Allied Territories (I like the name)
Japan, a United Korea, the Phillippines, Australia, Malaysia, and New Zealand benefit from this largely economic union. ANZAC and Japan contribute to mutual defense, as Korea has largely demilitarized in agreement with its treaty with China. Australian industry, Japanese technology, and Phillippine spaceports fuel their spaceborne ambitions.

South African Federation
Yup, one more. Its SA using military dominance to extort resources from Zimbabwe, Botswana, Madagascar, Namibia, and Angola. It can't get itself into the North Atlantic, let alone space. Many wars have happened between South Africa and the Congo, with West-African and Caliphate nations getting involved.

Antarctica
Its a wild-west kind of thing, with North America, Australia, South Africa, and Delhi scrambling and fighting for resources.

That's the map, if someone wants to try politics, go for it.

Tentative alliances;
Block 1: NAU, PAT, Brazil, and UK. They like the Hegemony, but its too isolated to do anything. Mistrust of the EU screws up stuff, most of them want nothing to do with Africa or the Caliphate. Except, Australia is encouraging breakaway factions in Indonesia. This alliance is by no means solid, and many of the PAT have their own agenda, as does Brazil.

Block 2: Caliphate and EU. EU has the knowhow, Caliphate has two billion poor people. The friendship is tenuous, but many EU corporations locate manufacturing in Caliphate nations. Hegemony is big enough to give these two pause. Ironically, the EU backs the West-Africans, which fight Caliphate nations sometimes.

Block 3: China. It doesn't need anyone.

Block 4: Hegemony, South Africa, Delhi. Hegemony is big, but it needs friends. These guys are close, and so this tripartate alliance divies the world. Together, the Hegemony and Delhi make one of the three major space powers, and they get lots of useful stuff out of Africa.

There. Next, I'll go over the rest thats been posted. And thanks again to Stofsk.

[Typhonis 1]

Ground technology . Slugthrowers rmain the main infantry weapon used ...energy weapons are being tried but battlefield conditions make DEW unpratical save in the largest tanks. Think about it all the dust and smoke and such will mess with a laser beam .

Infantry armor is alot like the armor seen in Tiberian sun ...an NBC sleve with armor plates over important areas and a fully sealed helment with filters of limited life support. Helment is fully sealable with an integral heads up display and communications funcions .

Railguns are rarely used on the battlefield save by tanks,artillery and snipers .

Grenades are smaller and lighter due to new materials and explosives.This allow offensive grenades to be thrown father .


one areana in which lasers do aceel on the battlefield is air defense though it is impractical for the average soldier to pack a laser rifle a flack tank armed with one is ownright scary .


Feel free to change any of this you see fit much like my territory ideas these are not written in stonme and I got the mega nation idea from the game Front Mission 3 where you are running around in a Nation called the Pacific Allied Territories

[Pablo Sanchez]

CaptainChewbacca:

On the Earth map, you're still slinging nations together with no real reasoning behind it. Why would Shiite and Persian Iran join an Arab dominated Sunni theocracy, and if it was annexed by conquest, why would the Russian power allow such an invasion to go forward? What interests do Japan and Australia hold in common, to make them join a unitary nation? What cultural or economic factors would drive Mexico to become one with the USA? How in God's name would the PRC become a corporate oligarchy?

I think what you're doing is creating combined superstates just to clean up the map, and I stand by my arrangement. I think I should point out that in terms of space only the major powers are of any import, and that everyone else is just window dressing.

[White Haven]

A crew-served laser weapon also strikes me as a great team sniper weapon. Have to be big as hell to be effective at the ranges required in atmosphere, hence why it's crew-served and likely carried in pieces, but you can't beat a straight line for accuracy.

[Stofsk]

A crew-served laser weapon also strikes me as a great team sniper weapon. Have to be big as hell to be effective at the ranges required in atmosphere, hence why it's crew-served and likely carried in pieces, but you can't beat a straight line for accuracy.

I figure laser weapons will be used in space and a vacuum, with some limited applications on the ground. Typhonis suggests they be used as SAMs; don't forget that fighters will have lasers too, and while you won't be able to 'dodge' the blast ECMs can help as they do today. Also, having a big laser cannon as a machine gun equivalent on the squad or platoon level is also interesting.




Pablo, in terms of Australia and Japan, we actually do have strong ties. And these ties give us some edge in the rest of the region.

Check this shit out, baby.

Australia and Japan enjoy excellent relations. Japan is of fundamental importance to Australia for political, strategic, and economic reasons. There has been a dramatic growth over recent decades in Australia's and Japan's familiarity with each other's society and culture, enabling the strengthening and deepening of a bilateral relationship founded on the convergence of complementary national interests. Moreover, many of Australia's arrangements with Japan (notably the Australia-Japan Foundation) have pioneered similar linkages with other regional countries.

Bold emphasis mine. Now, Australia's relations with China are another matter, and you correctly pointed that out before - why would countries like China, Japan and Australia share similar interests? Short answer, they wouldn't. Australia hasn't had much of a relationship with China, while Japan is like the black sheep of the Asian family (actually I'm not sure about that, that's just a guess). But the Japanese and Aussies get along fairly well, as I hope the website demonstrates.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Bold emphasis mine. Now, Australia's relations with China are another matter, and you correctly pointed that out before - why would countries like China, Japan and Australia share similar interests? Short answer, they wouldn't. Australia hasn't had much of a relationship with China, while Japan is like the black sheep of the Asian family (actually I'm not sure about that, that's just a guess). But the Japanese and Aussies get along fairly well, as I hope the website demonstrates.

Japan and Australia are good friends--but I don't think they're ever going to get married.

[Thirdfain]

Japan and Australia are good friends--but I don't think they're ever going to get married.

But they'd have the cutest babies

[Bob McDob]

I have to admit, I think Pablo's arrangement makes more sense than CaptainChewie's.

[Stofsk]

Japan and Australia are good friends--but I don't think they're ever going to get married.

But they'd have the cutest babies

Yeah.

Well Pablo, all I can say is this is speculation anyway. In the future some things might change. In any case, I agree with your previous point - that only the superpowers or major powers will get in on the action in space. In all likelihood that means Australia and Japan getting up there via the US.

Question: Why can't the Earth Federation be considered a superpower for these purposes? It's membership can include North America and Japan and Australia.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Question: Why can't the Earth Federation be considered a superpower for these purposes? It's membership can include North America and Japan and Australia.

I think the best thing would be to arrange things into power blocs.

USNA Bloc
Japan, Australia, other Pacific Nations
Mexico
Brazil
South American States
European Union

Chinese Bloc
Southeast Asian nations
Korea
Arab League

Pan-Slavic Bloc
Iran
India

The Pan-Slavs and Chinese would have an adversarial relationship, because they are neighbors and both have nationalistic tendencies. Thus, the Pan-Slavs support India against China. In response the Chinese support the Arab League (friends of Pakistan) against India. Then, the Hegemony supports Iran to solidify it's control over central asia and block the Arab League. For it's part, the arab league has sympathies with the central asian statelets which are under Hegemony domination.

The USNA bloc would be a sideline or swing power because it doesn't have immediate or obvious conflicts with the other two. It uses this position to manipulate the other two--neither the Chinese nor Slavs want to present an easy target to the USNA.

I think, of the nations, the People's Republic of China should be individually strongest, but it lacks powerful allies. The Pan-Slavic Hegemony is second strongest, and it has India as an ally. Finally, the USNA and EU are not as strong, but together they can present a third superpower--and they are more equal partners.

So, I'm really thinking of a three-pointed power struggle. Wars would be mostly colonial and local, with very few "continental" struggles. The junior partners would maintain their own navies and possess colonies, but it would be as part of an alliance, with plans on operating in concert with the bloc leaders. There might, OTOH, be something like an Indian-Arab brush war that the bigger boys agree to stay out of, provided that it doesn't get too harsh.

I think that this arrangement could offer room for good stories.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Question: Why can't the Earth Federation be considered a superpower for these purposes? It's membership can include North America and Japan and Australia.

I think the best thing would be to arrange things into power blocs.

USNA Bloc
Japan, Australia, other Pacific Nations
Mexico
Brazil
South American States
European Union

Chinese Bloc
Southeast Asian nations
Korea
Arab League

Pan-Slavic Bloc
Iran
India

The Pan-Slavs and Chinese would have an adversarial relationship, because they are neighbors and both have nationalistic tendencies. Thus, the Pan-Slavs support India against China. In response the Chinese support the Arab League (friends of Pakistan) against India. Then, the Hegemony supports Iran to solidify it's control over central asia and block the Arab League. For it's part, the arab league has sympathies with the central asian statelets which are under Hegemony domination.

The USNA bloc would be a sideline or swing power because it doesn't have immediate or obvious conflicts with the other two. It uses this position to manipulate the other two--neither the Chinese nor Slavs want to present an easy target to the USNA.

I think, of the nations, the People's Republic of China should be individually strongest, but it lacks powerful allies. The Pan-Slavic Hegemony is second strongest, and it has India as an ally. Finally, the USNA and EU are not as strong, but together they can present a third superpower--and they are more equal partners.

So, I'm really thinking of a three-pointed power struggle. Wars would be mostly colonial and local, with very few "continental" struggles. The junior partners would maintain their own navies and possess colonies, but it would be as part of an alliance, with plans on operating in concert with the bloc leaders. There might, OTOH, be something like an Indian-Arab brush war that the bigger boys agree to stay out of, provided that it doesn't get too harsh.

I think that this arrangement could offer room for good stories.

Works for me, but I think you and I have pretty much the same idea. As you can see, I set forth that the 'superstates' were not singular nations but that they contained many nations with similar, though sometimes divergent goals. For example, many of the smaller nations of the NAU might 'wheel and deal' with Brazil or southern nations and still look for NAU military protection. Likewise, Japan and Australia form the backbone of the PAT which is largely a region where China/India/Hegemony powers can't steal the resources of the smaller countries and markets are protected. It is by no means a "nation" any more than the modern EU is.

You and I are fast-approaching the same end, but I think you should reread my post. I mean, how is your "Arab League" different than the "Caliphate" previously suggested?

Also, your arangement leaves out Africa almost entirely.

[Stofsk]

Also, your arangement leaves out Africa almost entirely.

That's not suprising, as Africa would in all likelihood be decimated thanks to AIDS, Civil War and plague/famine. I can see SA rising as a regional power, but most of Africa would probably be a shit hole.

In any case I think having 3 power blocs on Earth is a good development. Kinda makes me think of 1984. It's all doublepluss good, brothers. (shit, with material like this I could be a comedian...)

[CaptainChewbacca]

I don't know... I do like a wild-card Iran that could be friends with the Hegemony, but an empty Africa? There'd be wars fought over its resources.