Alternate WW2 fun and weirdness!

[Boyish-Tigerlilly]

There's no way Germany will be holding France with the Soviet Union and Uk also at war with it.

Now why woudlnt Germany be able to sack France? What if Germany declares war on poland, then invades france like it did the first time. IT was not at war with Soviet Russia untill after, right?

I didn't notice at first, but Italy is an ally. OOps. Is italy at war with Germany from teh get go, or is there a lapse of time to account for the fact that Germany was an ally originally?

[CRUCIBLE]

Hmm..there are things we cant work with.

Did the US talk Germany out of the worst strategic failures of the historical campaign?

Did the US mobilized up front too, like Germany did?

Did they exchanged technology before they started the war?

If we could answer all these above (perfect conditions) with a yes, the German/US team up would have no problems at all. Indeed, it would be over quick (in war terms).

If not, then who knows. I am wondering why no one has mentioned Rotkäppchen (the atom bomb, for the non-german speaking). Only mentionable IF the US and Germany would collaborate on technology issues, but the developement could be drastically quickened.
And the outcome could be war turning, just like Hitler imagined it.

[admiral_danielsben]

In the spirit of '71 USA vs '91 Iraq, another weird alternate war scenario, this time WW2:

Ok kids, let's toss politics to the wind for the moment and shuffle the two sides in a very weird "what if" scenario: The United States and Nazi Germany versus everyone else of import, namely Britain, France, Italy, Japan, and the Soviet Union. Assume the US is ready to start shipping troops to Germany at the outbreak of hostilities.

What do you think? Can this massive eurasian alliance overwhelm the combination of German technology and American industrial might? Or will the American refrain in European bars go from "If it weren't for us, you'd all be speaking German!" to "Thanks to us, you're all speaking German!"

I dunno. It depends - are all fronts going at once? If so, then the Germans are probably toast - the German army was at its best fighting one front at a time, sending the bulk of the Army from Poland to Norway to Holland to France. In OTL (Our Time Line) WW2, they got into trouble when fighting multiple fronts - In Russia and North Africa simultaneously. They were really down for the count when it became 3 fronts: France, Italy, and Russia/the East. A combined British/French/Italian/Russian alliance would probably do better if they all went after the Germans simultaneously - the Germans will probably make substantial gains but won't take all of France or anything. My gut feeling is it'll grind into more of a WWI-style combat. And the Germans alone won't have the manpower the USSR/British/French/Italians will, nor the colonies for supplies, so it'll grind to a halt.

The US, at first, won't be able to do much. Once mobilized, it'll kick butt for awhile (Canada and the British/French americas are toast). However, i don't think it'll be able to supply Germany much, esp. if Germany doesn't conquer France. This is because the main German ports are in the North Sea, which is fairly easy to secure - the only access routes are north and south, and south is pitifully narrow and easy to patrol. Thus, the biggest roadblock for America supplying Germany is England - not just the Royal Navy, but the physical mass of England blocking the most readily available exit way, as well as making remaining options easier to patrol.

Eventually, i figure the Germans will go down, and there will be some sort of brokered peace with the US (can you imagine how difficult it would be to occupy the place? - or it might not. A Nazi US would find considerable opposition - every non-lily-white, plus some lily-whites who care about, say, democracy).

Note that the scenario is probably implausible - the German-American Bund and the American Nazi Party were never strong enough to do anything even close to produce a Nazi America. And a Nazi or Fascist America (slightly more plausible - although not by much) would be needed to ally with Germany. Mucb more likely is a US-neutral scenario. Hitler's two biggest mistakes were committed in 1941: attacking the USSR and declaring war on the US. Had he done neither, Germany would have won.

[CRUCIBLE]

Hitler's two biggest mistakes were committed in 1941: attacking the USSR and declaring war on the US.
Had he done neither, Germany would have won.

I agree a bit...

Even if the US wouldnt had joined in, Nazi Germany would have lost.

This is based on the fact, that a nation led by incompetent egomaniacs, cant win a war.
Decisions like " We take Stalingrad just because it is named after Stalin and a symbol for the USSR" (bullshit btw), is just a classic example of an idiot who was put into command (more or less) and supported by idiots.

Oh..and before some german is bitching around. I am from Germany too..

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Hitler's two biggest mistakes were committed in 1941: attacking the USSR and declaring war on the US. Had he done neither, Germany would have won.

Why do people think that Hitler just woke up morning and decided to invade the Soviet Union? It had been part of his plan from the very start. Not that it mattered; Russia had plans to invade Germany around 1943.

And not declaring war against the US would have been pretty useless as well, with the situation in the Atlantic already turning into a war between the US and Germany. Hitler's decleration just sped up the process.

[CRUCIBLE]

Hitler's two biggest mistakes were committed in 1941: attacking the USSR and declaring war on the US. Had he done neither, Germany would have won.

Why do people think that Hitler just woke up morning and decided to invade the Soviet Union? It had been part of his plan from the very start. Not that it mattered; Russia had plans to invade Germany around 1943.

And not declaring war against the US would have been pretty useless as well, with the situation in the Atlantic already turning into a war between the US and Germany. Hitler's decleration just sped up the process.

Well, its not that he woke up and decided to invade russia. Its just so that in his great idiocy (thanks god), he decided to invade russia at the worst possible time, with the worst tactical move.

As you may reckon, his whole "plan" was laid out before the first bullet flew. A big ego trip, inflexible and open to influence from others (Göbbels, Himmler). If that are not the worst traits for someone who is goinig to war, then what?

[LordShaithis]

Hrmm. If Germany held out for as long as it did historically, why should it go down more quickly under these circumstances? There will be no D-Day, nor lend-lease to the British and Russians. Shouldn't Germany be able to last at least long enough for the US to build a navy and come to the rescue? I mean, Italy can't make THAT much difference, and Japan we're already taking into account with the US having to wait and build all those ships.

I don't want to give the Evil Alliance here perfect historical hindsight or anything, but it's reasonable to assume the US would say something along the lines of "Hey Adolf, just focus on surviving until we can set up a line of supply."

[admiral_danielsben]

Hitler's two biggest mistakes were committed in 1941: attacking the USSR and declaring war on the US.
Had he done neither, Germany would have won.

I agree a bit...

Even if the US wouldnt had joined in, Nazi Germany would have lost.

This is based on the fact, that a nation led by incompetent egomaniacs, cant win a war.
Decisions like " We take Stalingrad just because it is named after Stalin and a symbol for the USSR" (bullshit btw), is just a classic example of an idiot who was put into command (more or less) and supported by idiots.

Oh..and before some german is bitching around. I am from Germany too..

Stalingrad actually had some value: the Nazis sent a southern campaign to capture the Caucusus oil fields. Although they could've just steered around it; it ain't exactly completely blocking the whole damn route.

I'm talking both decisions. Germany V. Britain was a stalemate. The Germans couldn't invade Britain reasonably, the British couldn't do much on the offensive. Eventually there would've been a decided peace, esp. if Churchill is tossed in favor of Halifax or Attlee or somebody.

Another blunder, ironically, was the holocaust: each train carrying carts of human fodder was one less train carrying supplies to the front. An expansionist/nationalist but non-racist Germany would've done far better (chalk that up to the Nazis; their Jew-hatred cost them the war - all the Jewish physicists - Einstein et al - packed up and left, or were forced out of useful positions and killed/imprisoned, thus setting back Germany's nuclear program.).

[LordChaos]

Hitler's two biggest mistakes were committed in 1941: attacking the USSR and declaring war on the US. Had he done neither, Germany would have won.

Why do people think that Hitler just woke up morning and decided to invade the Soviet Union? It had been part of his plan from the very start. Not that it mattered; Russia had plans to invade Germany around 1943.

And not declaring war against the US would have been pretty useless as well, with the situation in the Atlantic already turning into a war between the US and Germany. Hitler's decleration just sped up the process.

Actualy, I've always sorta wondered what would have happened if Hitler had declared war on JAPAN after 12-7-41. I sorta doubt a declaration against germany would have made it through congress under those cercomstances.

[Sea Skimmer]

Hrmm. If Germany held out for as long as it did historically, why should it go down more quickly under these circumstances? There will be no D-Day, nor lend-lease to the British and Russians. Shouldn't Germany be able to last at least long enough for the US to build a navy and come to the rescue?

Because historically Russia was aiding Nazi Germany with resources until about an hour before Operation Barbarrosa was launched. This time around those two nations are at war from day one, not having those resources and having a new very large if very poorly led and orgainzed enemy two years early will be very fatal.

[Sea Skimmer]

Actualy, I've always sorta wondered what would have happened if Hitler had declared war on JAPAN after 12-7-41. I sorta doubt a declaration against germany would have made it through congress under those cercomstances.

It would merely need to wait a few months at most until more US warships are torpedoed in the Atlantic. Congress isn't nearly stupid enough to fall for such a ruse for any length of time, at least not at that point in history.

[LordChaos]

Actualy, I've always sorta wondered what would have happened if Hitler had declared war on JAPAN after 12-7-41. I sorta doubt a declaration against germany would have made it through congress under those cercomstances.

It would merely need to wait a few months at most until more US warships are torpedoed in the Atlantic. Congress isn't nearly stupid enough to fall for such a ruse for any length of time, at least not at that point in history.

Previous such actions against USN ships in the Atlantic weren't enough to get congress to step in. It's not that they were stupid as they were isolationist in the extream at the time. Without Pearl (or another equivilient event later), the US wouldn't have been able to get a declaration of war through without japan declearing first. Germany was fairly close to the same. If Germany had denounced the IJN attack on pearl, it might have survived long enough without open warfare with the US for the "hotheades" in congress to cool down, preventing US offical entry into the european conflict for some time. (though there would still be lend - lease and US built, owned, crewed, and loaded convoys traveling to the UK).

[LordShaithis]

Because historically Russia was aiding Nazi Germany with resources until about an hour before Operation Barbarrosa was launched. This time around those two nations are at war from day one, not having those resources and having a new very large if very poorly led and orgainzed enemy two years early will be very fatal.

If the Germans can still drop France in a hurry and then focus most of their attention to the east, I think they can survive long enough for help to arrive. Remember, in this "everyone goes at once" scenario, the US isn't going to spend the first couple years dicking around waiting for Pearl Harbor to happen.

[Sea Skimmer]

If the Germans can still drop France in a hurry and then focus most of their attention to the east, I think they can survive long enough for help to arrive.

Dropping France in a hurry is not likely to be possibul. The Germans are not ready for a war of any length in 1939. Simply invading Poland used up half of there entire bomb stocks. A push into France would have to go off without any extensive planning and without the advantage of the best French units pushing forward into Belgium. That is not a good combination for a quick victory. And even if they did secure such a victory, the Royal Navy still can control the eastern Atlantic and cut off supplies while several hundred Russian divisions are pounding on the eastern front. T

hey must survive against that for three years. Historically against a Russia slightly better organized but with far fewer resources after three years of war the German situation was near hopeless with Russian forces in Poland and Romania. I see no reason why the Germans won't be even worse off, seeing how they won't get to force the Russians to retake a thousand miles of there own territory and won't get many chances to destroy Russia field armies in vast encirclements.

Remember, in this "everyone goes at once" scenario, the US isn't going to spend the first couple years dicking around waiting for Pearl Harbor to happen.

No, its going to spend those years waiting for a fleet which can secure the seas to be built. That historically started in 1940 and began to pay off big time in 1943. This process cannot be sped up, capital warships cannot be thrown together overnight.

[LordShaithis]

Disagree with me, eh? Well I'm just gonna give you this, devoid of any context, and let your head explode! Muahahahaha!