What weapon killed Luke's family in ANH?

[Meest]

^^^
How is trying to equate modern troops line of thought/procedure a simplier solution? Blasters shown to have that ability = simplier than chucking grenades which they aren't know to have.

This is somewhat related to Vadar at Tatooine thread, maybe he got pissed that he was reminded of some repressed feelings. Anakin always seemed whiny when he didn't get what he wanted, now he has the power to, so I think he either took a little nap in his chamber and just didn't care to be reminded or ordered the last living reminders of his grief to get taken care of.

Doesn't look like Vadar gets detailed briefings on details like farmers names who are holding droids, he seems to just make overall judgement calls. Walks to bridge officers give quick rundown, he barks orders. Pretty sure when trying to retrieve the highest level of security information, troops have the whatever means necessary orders opened up. Its like the national security overides used today.

[DPDarkPrimus]

Blasters shown to have that ability = simplier than chucking grenades which they aren't know to have.

Stormtroopers carry thermal detonators on them. That's what those cylindrical objects on the back of their belts are.

[Meest]

Ya but thermal detonators aren't incendiary grenades IIRC. Would think there would be blast damage and not just fire from thermal nades, they are described as fusion bombs.

[YT300000]

In Han Solo and the Lost Legacy, Gallandro performs the burning on someone- putting the blaster to a low setting and burning their flesh off.

Actually Gallandro just put a low-power bolt at the feet of one of the survivors to "persuade" him to cooperate with them

Probably. I haven't read the books in a while, and I have them all in one volume, so distinctions of minor events are difficult.

[Kuja]

According to SW: Tales From the Mos Eisley Cantina, Own spat in the stormie Captain's face after the guy wouldn't stop prodding him about where Luke was. As the platoon was leaving, the Captain ordered one of the squads to deal with Owen and Beru.

[Connor MacLeod]

Thermal detonators can melt/vaporize large spherical sections out of SW-grade building materials if its within range, I question whethr those were used on Owen/Beru (aside from the fact we should see some sort of crater or such.) - We're talking MJ range energies here to do what we saw, and they would have only absorbed a fraction of that. (there woudl be blast marks or craters around the point of origin)

[Connor MacLeod]

Ya but thermal detonators aren't incendiary grenades IIRC. Would think there would be blast damage and not just fire from thermal nades, they are described as fusion bombs.

Actually they have properties similar to incendiary devices (at least some models do) but its highly unlikely they would have left the skeletons untouched like that.

[Connor MacLeod]

ACtually, now that I think about it, the fact that their skeletons were visually (mostly?) intact might very well argue against say a flamethrower or crematory fire of any kind as well. Cremation of a human body requires hundreds of megatons to a few GJ (depending on efficiencies involved), and while it won't necceisarly incinerate the bones as well, I don't believe it woudl leave a complete skeleton like that either.

In any case, there should be evidence of such a pyre as it is (scorch marks around the bodies, evidencec of fuel, etc.) Given the apparent condition of the skeletons and the lack of any sort of side effects on the surrounding area, it seems likely that their bodies were burned by some sort of controllable-output weapon.

To be fair though, this wouldnt neccesarily mean a blaster (although that is quite possible as well, and there is ample evidence that blasters carry megajoule-range energies) - it could have been something like a fusioncutter as well (the ANH novelization mentions fusioncutters as weapons, incidentally.)

[Darth Wong]

To cover up who did the deed, the trooper torch the place and throw the Larses into the house. Owen and Beru, mortally wounded and on fire, just make it outside the door of their home when they finally expire -which would also explain their positions when Luke found them.

You still have to explain why you think they're carrying incendiary grenades. And "torching the place" might not be that easy when everything appears to be made of either sand or concrete. Were they carrying jerrycans of gasoline too? How much of this place was seriously supposed to be on fire in your theory?

[Darth Wong]

Cremation of a human body requires hundreds of megatons to a few GJ (depending on efficiencies involved) ...

I'll assume that you meant "megajoules" rather than "megatons"

[Kuja]

Ya but thermal detonators aren't incendiary grenades IIRC. Would think there would be blast damage and not just fire from thermal nades, they are described as fusion bombs.

Actually they have properties similar to incendiary devices (at least some models do) but its highly unlikely they would have left the skeletons untouched like that.

To say the least. The Essential Guide to Weps and Tech says that a TD can vaporize two solid meters of 'permacrete'. On top of that, in SOTE, Prince Xizor estimated that a Class A TD would vaporize several floors of his castle in 'a heartbeat'.

I'm willing to bet money that one of these things wouldn't leave such an intact skeleton.

[Connor MacLeod]

Cremation of a human body requires hundreds of megatons to a few GJ (depending on efficiencies involved) ...

I'll assume that you meant "megajoules" rather than "megatons"

Oops. yeah. I did.

Although technically several hundred megatons WOULD cremate a huuman body..

[Howedar]

Among other things...

[The Yosemite Bear]

Trooper 1: What's going on, lord Vader just wanted us to track these driods
Trooper 2: well you know how Col. Kilgore and his old republic era landing ships are....

Col. Kilgore passing jawa bodies tossing sabbac cards on them.
I love the smell of Tabbanna in the morning!

kilgore we have to sieze that planet, I hear the waves are tasty. Damn shame that the mon cal don't surf.

[Elfdart]

I'm going by what actually appears on the screen. When Luke returns, something in the underground courtyard is on fire (what is on fire is irrelevant: something is burning down there -nice try for a red herring, Darth), hence the billowing black smoke.

There are black burn marks on the outside of the igloo-like entrance to the homestead and smoke rising from the interior through the doorway. The inside of the doorway is blackened as well. There are what looks like several chunks of stone scattered around the entrance and the skeletons of Owen and Beru. One is lying on its back on top of one of the blocks and the other is face down just outside the doorway with its feet at the door.

Since either Owen or Beru were on top of the wreckage, it's most likely that the place was shot up and/or torched before the Larses were killed.

My theory that the stormtroopers (probably after a gun fight with Owen and Beru) fire the building and shoot them -or shoot them and then fire the building holds the most water. It explains:

the black burn marks and broken masonry outside the home
the skeleton on top of the debris
the fire and smoke coming from inside the building
why it looks like Owen and Beru were trying to flee the building and were suddenly stopped

Sure, grenades aren't mentioned in the movie, but then neither is the "burn-the-skin-off-their-bones" setting on a blaster. Both are mentioned in the EU, however.

[Connor MacLeod]

Sigh.. lets go over this agian:

1.) We are talkign about some very HIGH energy levels for that sorrt of effort.. megajoule range at a minimum (tens, more likely hundreds of megajoules.)

2.) Cremation is unlikely. There is no evidence of the remains fuel supplies (cremating a human body can easily require many tons of fuel to achieve, and in any case, where would they get them from in a desert?) and its doubtful it would leave intact skeletons like that. In any case, its doubtful that cremation would leave the bones totally unmarked/undamaged like we see, nor is it likely they could control it in that manner. (This also rules out flamethrowers, incidentally.)

I should also note that at the energy levels we are talking about, we would quite probably be seeing evidence of the area surrounding the bodies having been melted/glassed (especially if there is sand nearby) - remember that we are talking about INTENSE heat...

3.) explosives/incendiaries are unlikely for many of the same reasons: they would not leave the area around the bodies unmarked like that (there would be craters, molten/burned areas, etc.) and its unlikely that the skeletons would remain that intact/unmarked - thjey can't be contrrolled to quite that degree.

The observation of the Lar's death suggests something that allows for more controlled energy outputs - a blaster, a fusioncutter, or something like that.

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm going by what actually appears on the screen. When Luke returns, something in the underground courtyard is on fire (what is on fire is irrelevant: something is burning down there -nice try for a red herring, Darth), hence the billowing black smoke.

And so you're assuming blasters (or similar energy weapons) are incapable of setting anything on fire?

There are black burn marks on the outside of the igloo-like entrance to the homestead and smoke rising from the interior through the doorway. The inside of the doorway is blackened as well. There are what looks like several chunks of stone scattered around the entrance and the skeletons of Owen and Beru. One is lying on its back on top of one of the blocks and the other is face down just outside the doorway with its feet at the door.

Yes, and the skeletons are QUITE intact. I'm sure you noticed that. I also noted they did not seem to look very charred/burnt, either. I would point out that none of this is inconsistent with what we know blasters are capable of (the Jawa sandcrawler, Han's blaster against Docking Bay 94's walls, etc.)

Since either Owen or Beru were on top of the wreckage, it's most likely that the place was shot up and/or torched before the Larses were killed.

Which bears on what turned the Lars' into skeletons how exactly?

My theory that the stormtroopers (probably after a gun fight with Owen and Beru) fire the building and shoot them -or shoot them and then fire the building holds the most water. It explains:

"Holds the most water?" What does water have to do with anything?

And are you still proposing that laughable "they were burned to skeletons in/near the house" theory?

the black burn marks and broken masonry outside the home

Blasters can leave burn marks and shatter masonry.

the skeleton on top of the debris

Blasters can do that as well.

the fire and smoke coming from inside the building

Blasters can do that as well.

why it looks like Owen and Beru were trying to flee the building and were suddenly stopped

Again, blasters can do this as well.

Sure, grenades aren't mentioned in the movie, but then neither is the "burn-the-skin-off-their-bones" setting on a blaster. Both are mentioned in the EU, however.

The obvious problem being that grenades are not exactly known for their fine degree of control, unlike a blaster. If they used a thermal detonator, for example, there wouldn't even BE any skeletons remaining.

Or are you proposing that SW grenades have a "burn the flesh but leave everything else intact" setting or that they use NDF?

[Kurgan]

Wait, I thought every Stormtrooper carried a "thermal detonator" on the back of his armor?

(You know, what B squared specultated was a "one handed lightsaber prop")

After questioning fails, dispatch them outside their home, toss one on the bodies, toss a few more in the house.

PS: I know TD's are supposed to be able to "level buildings" (per EU) but do we have to assume that the "silver baseball" type one (as seen in ROTJ) has to be the same yield as the back-of-stormy variety?

PPS: Blasters are fucking powerful, yes they are, but we've never seen them do this kind of thing to anyone! But then again, we've never seen what a thermal detonator can do either.... except in the EU in both cases. If the EU says it and that settles it for you all, then nevermind. Stormies head over there, burning and smoking stuff left behind.

[Meest]

After questioning fails, dispatch them outside their home, toss one on the bodies, toss a few more in the house.

PS: I know TD's are supposed to be able to "level buildings" (per EU) but do we have to assume that the "silver baseball" type one (as seen in ROTJ) has to be the same yield as the back-of-stormy variety?

Then why are the bodies in relatively one piece and not blown about? Remember we are talking about an explosive device. Especially if it happened the way you described, the bodies dead already on the ground, toss a nade within a few metres and the bodies just burned? Even if the yields are within the same magnitude as the one in Jabba's palace, why the hell were people scared, if it would just cause a bit of fire halfway across his room?

[Kurgan]

I'm speculating that perhaps the "thermal detonators" that Stormtroopers carry are low yield incendiaries. It wouldn't need to be the same yield as the different shaped one carried by Leia in ROTJ, as even in real life not all "grenades" have the same effects or yield.




On a semi-unrelated note, as a kid I always wondered why the bounty hunters all pointed their guns at Leia in that scene, if indeed the "bomb" would blow up the entire building if she released the trigger. Wouldn't shooting her set it off anyway (dead man switch)? Or was this just a desperate automatic response on behalf of the bounty hunters at Jabba's?

I'm not saying they're the same weapon, we never see either actually used onscreen. The only connection we have between them is the name (and the Stormie version is only named outside the movies in official materials).

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Wait, I thought every Stormtrooper carried a "thermal detonator" on the back of his armor?

(You know, what B squared specultated was a "one handed lightsaber prop")

I believe Robert Brown only speculated that was what it originally was supposed to be in preproduction before the lightsabre was made a "Jedi only" weapon (so to speak), based on a production painting and assorted art that depicted Stormtroopers with lightsabres.

[Kurgan]

Yeah, he only speculated what it might be. But isn't it "official" that that little tube-like object on the back of the Stormtrooper armor is "a thermal detonator"?

If I'm wrong fine, but I swore I read that in some official book, not on Brown's page. Sorry if it sounded confusing what I said.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Yes, it is officially a thermal detonator. I was only correcting you on the nature of Brown's speculation: he knew it was a thermal detonator, but suggested that it might have originally designed to be a lightsabre.

[YT300000]

PS: I know TD's are supposed to be able to "level buildings" (per EU) but do we have to assume that the "silver baseball" type one (as seen in ROTJ) has to be the same yield as the back-of-stormy variety?

No we don't, because that would be stupid. The "baseball" is a Class A, and stormies carry the much weaker Class C.

According to official sources, the Class A annihilates everything within 20 m and leaves the stuff outside that radius untouched. The Class C has a 5 m radius. Although the idea of an explosion restrained like this is odd, if not ludicrous.

EDIT: Not to mention physically impossible.

[Darth Wong]

I'm going by what actually appears on the screen. When Luke returns, something in the underground courtyard is on fire (what is on fire is irrelevant: something is burning down there -nice try for a red herring, Darth), hence the billowing black smoke.

It's not a red-herring at all, and you're either being deliberately or unintentionally stupid. If the structure of the domicile is not flammable, then a human in that domicile will not be burned to the bone just because something in there is lit afire. If you took a concrete bunker, scattered some objects in there, and lit them on fire, a human in that bunker would most likely die of smoke inhalation, not having all of the flesh burned off his skeleton.

Your theory requires that they staggered to the door and most of the way up the stairs before collapsing (at which point they would still need their musculature and their internal organs to be in working order) and then the flesh was all burned off. What kind of fire, burning somewhere else in the compound, would cause this to happen, pray tell? How do you just "torch" a concrete structure in such a manner that someone staggers OUT Of the building and THEN has all of the flesh and muscles and organs burned off his skeleton?