Graphics card question

salm · Post by **salm** » 2004-06-04 04:34pm

Hi
i want to buy a new computer.
now, i can get a system with.

3 GHz
ati radeon pro 128 MB
80 Gigs hard disk
512 MB RAM
DVD, mouse, keyboard and all that crap

for 515 EUROS.

is that a reasonable price?

and i have a question concernig the grafic card.
i´ll mainly use it for 3D Programms such as 3D Studio Max. what kind of card should i get?

i think it´s going to be an ati 9800 but i have no clue which one of them. there´s the 9800 with 128 MB, the 9800 pro 128MB the 9800, the 9800 pro with 256 MB and the 9800 XT with 256 MB.

the ati page has this comparison thingy with a whole bunch of stuff in it such as:

Frame Buffer
Memory Interface
Rendering Pipelines
Pixel Fillrate (Gpixels/sec)
Engine Clock (MHz)
Memory Clock (MHz)
Output Connections

http://www.ati.com/products/radeon9800/ ... mpare.html

what the hell does that mean?

Minor title edit - Phong

salm · Post by **salm** » 2004-06-04 05:01pm

oh, and there´s something that makes me suspicious. the motherboard is a

MSI KT4

and when i enter msi kt4 in google i can only find reviews from around 2002/2003.

does this motherboard suck?

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-06-04 06:00pm

If you are using OpenGL 3D graphics programs, then go with nVidia cards, with your budget the best bet is probably the GeForce Ti4600/4800 since you don't need PS 2.0 shader support.

EDIT: Alright, lets look at these terms too I guess.

Frame Buffer

Amount of memory on the graphics card used for storing textures and geometry. More is of course better.

Memory Interface

The width and type of the memory interface between the GPU and the memory.

Rendering Pipelines

This is a term that describes the post-geometry portion of the GPU. Texturing and rendering are all done here.

Pixel Fillrate (Gpixels/sec)

The amount of pixels the rendering pipeline can process per second. Not nearly as important to your needs as Geometry acceleration (measured in polygons per second) and driver quality (nVidia is far superior here).

Engine Clock (MHz)

Clock frequency of the GPU.

Memory Clock (MHz)

Clock frequency of the memory, often doubled to indicate DDR Ram, although this is just marketing.

Output Connections

What sort of monitor connections are on board. A typical card has VGA, DVI and S-video connectors.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-06-04 06:07pm

salm wrote:oh, and there´s something that makes me suspicious. the motherboard is a

MSI KT4

and when i enter msi kt4 in google i can only find reviews from around 2002/2003.

does this motherboard suck?

That's a Athlon XP motherboard (which means it shouldn't be 3000 Mhz, but 3000+ PR rating) with the KT400 chipset. Not my first choice, if I were you I'd get something based off either the nForce2 or nForce2 Ultra-400 chipsets.

Oh, and I don't think the price is that great. Especially since you need more RAM (1GB at least for a workstation) and the motherboard chipset isn't really that great.

darthdavid · Post by **darthdavid** » 2004-06-04 09:04pm

What kind of processor are you getting? and make sur e you get one that fits the socket on the mobo your getting. And for 3d modeling you'll need atleast a gig of ram, probably more. Plus your price is craptacular. I'd look over http://newegg.com .

Guy N. Cognito · Post by **Guy N. Cognito** » 2004-06-05 01:51am

Your video card should be nice, but it doesn't have to be the best. I work in a 3D company so I know that you don't need the best video card, since it's still your CPU that does all the chugging when it comes to Rendering, unless you have software that does otherwise, and that is still fairly uncommon. The Gig of RAM is a good idea, and the motherboard isn't the best. Try to get something a bit better if you can. As for whether you go for nVidia or ATI, that's more a personal call, it's like whether you go with Intel or AMD. Personal call depending on your views.

salm · Post by **salm** » 2004-06-05 11:40am

The Kernel wrote: That's a Athlon XP motherboard (which means it shouldn't be 3000 Mhz, but 3000+ PR rating) with the KT400 chipset. Not my first choice, if I were you I'd get something based off either the nForce2 or nForce2 Ultra-400 chipsets.

Oh, and I don't think the price is that great. Especially since you need more RAM (1GB at least for a workstation) and the motherboard chipset isn't really that great.

what is the difference between 3000MHz and 3000+ PR rating?
sorry, i´m an idiot when it comes to computer tech stuff.

oh, and thanks a lot for the description of the technical data stuff.

salm · Post by **salm** » 2004-06-05 11:45am

darthdavid wrote:What kind of processor are you getting? and make sur e you get one that fits the socket on the mobo your getting. And for 3d modeling you'll need atleast a gig of ram, probably more. Plus your price is craptacular. I'd look over http://newegg.com .

i´m getting a complete system. i´m too stupid to build it together myself.

i´m not so sure about that gig of ram. i´ve got 128 in my old 800MHz Athlon and it´s actually doing almost fine. it starts getting shaky when i use a lot of paricle systems, too many light sources or raytrayce materials, but in general it´s all right. at least for modelling.

salm · Post by **salm** » 2004-06-05 11:51am

Guy N. Cognito wrote:Your video card should be nice, but it doesn't have to be the best. I work in a 3D company so I know that you don't need the best video card, since it's still your CPU that does all the chugging when it comes to Rendering, unless you have software that does otherwise, and that is still fairly uncommon. The Gig of RAM is a good idea, and the motherboard isn't the best. Try to get something a bit better if you can. As for whether you go for nVidia or ATI, that's more a personal call, it's like whether you go with Intel or AMD. Personal call depending on your views.

well the rendering isn´t really the problem esspecially because i´ll have two computers after buying the new one, so the old one will be the render horse anyway while i can use my new one to keep on modelling.

the annoying thing is that i can´t have too many polys in my viewport at once and that is mainly because of the graphics card as far as i know.

Boyish-Tigerlilly · Post by **Boyish-Tigerlilly** » 2004-06-05 11:58am

I have nvidia graphics cards, and I have always had a problem with them. I have yet to try ATI products, but they have to be better no? I hear Nvida likes to lie on their benchmarks and they aren't as good anymore since they were bought-out.

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2004-06-05 02:32pm

nimetski wrote:I have nvidia graphics cards, and I have always had a problem with them. I have yet to try ATI products, but they have to be better no? I hear Nvida likes to lie on their benchmarks and they aren't as good anymore since they were bought-out.

ATI isn't immune from the cheating disease. Right now there's a scandal about ATI's latest cards not having true trillinear filtering.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2004-06-05 03:05pm

I'm of two minds about this so-called cheating. Some say that the screenshots are basically indistinguishable from real trilinear, but the fact that artifacts and other craptitude don't show up in screenshots doesn't mean they won't show up in gameplay with lots of moving objects.

Then again, it doesn't necessarily mean that it WILL show up in gameplay, either, so we'll have to wait and see.

I know one thing, this benchmark-centered mindset is a bunch of crap, and has to go.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-06-05 04:45pm

salm wrote: what is the difference between 3000MHz and 3000+ PR rating?
sorry, i´m an idiot when it comes to computer tech stuff.

oh, and thanks a lot for the description of the technical data stuff.

The PR rating tries to normalize the Athlon XP performance to Pentium 4 standards. See, the Athlon XP has a higher IPC (which means it does more work per clock) but doesn't run as fast. So at say 2.2 Ghz, it is as fast as a 3Ghz P4 so it gets a 3000+ PR rating. See what I mean?

And as far as the cheating goes, forget about it. The "cheating" has everything to do with texture mip-map levels which are irrelevent to you. A professional OpenGL workstation simply doesn't want to run an ATI card because the performance isn't as good as nVidia cards in OpenGL geometry application and more importantly, nVidia has FAR superior drivers for OpenGL professional work.

Boyish-Tigerlilly · Post by **Boyish-Tigerlilly** » 2004-06-05 06:02pm

I am attatched to my Geforce, but it seems to have some problems with certain things...or so say the technicians who run stores....

I bought Warcrap III, and for some reason it would not work correctly, no matter what. I asked, and they told me it, and many other games are not really calibrated to run on Geforce cards.

I have the G4 4600. I am just afraid everything will be made for ATI cards.....

PS: If you have a 2600+ Athlon, what is the Pentium equivalent? 2.08 Ghz? That is what it says. I am just a bit confused on the comparisons in performance.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2004-06-05 06:16pm

If you're doing 3D work as well as normal stuff like games, NVidia is really the way to go.

You visit 3D message boards and you will hear mentions of tons of horror stories with 3D artists and their pain with ATI cards.

I hear there's some 3rd party driver for ATI that sort of fixes that issue, but who knows how well it'll do on the other hand in terms of letting games take full advantage of the card's power and what not, so yeah.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-06-05 06:44pm

nimetski wrote: I bought Warcrap III, and for some reason it would not work correctly, no matter what. I asked, and they told me it, and many other games are not really calibrated to run on Geforce cards.

Not calibrated to run on GeForce cards?

Son, your technical issues have nothing to do with the drivers are general nVidia hardware. Either you need to update your drivers, your Windows installation needs tweaking, or your card is damaged (highly doubtful).

As for games not being calibrated to run on GeForce cards, they are the most common desktop GPU's in the world, there isn't a game out there that isn't calibrated to run on them. I suggest you try to diagnose your problems before assuming that an entire series of cards is bad.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-06-05 07:01pm

nimetski wrote:I have nvidia graphics cards, and I have always had a problem with them. I have yet to try ATI products, but they have to be better no? I hear Nvida likes to lie on their benchmarks and they aren't as good anymore since they were bought-out.

Bought out? nVidia was never bought out. Don't you think you should check your info before going into a thread and spewing stuff with no informational value, especially when someone is trying to make a buying decision?

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2004-06-05 07:28pm

If you mean bought-out, you're probably thinking of how NVidia bought out 3dfx, not the other way around.

Boyish-Tigerlilly · Post by **Boyish-Tigerlilly** » 2004-06-05 08:22pm

Plither. Yep

I didn't mean they were bought out. Sometimes I write things in reversed order. SORRY! Well, I guess thats what i get for LISTENING to the computer technicians at CompUSA?

If you mean bought-out, you're probably thinking of how NVidia bought out 3dfx, not the other way around.

Probably. I usually TRY to unfubar what I write. I guess I didn't catch it. Since, afterall, thats IS what I was told there.

Boyish-Tigerlilly · Post by **Boyish-Tigerlilly** » 2004-06-05 08:24pm

Not calibrated to run on GeForce cards?

Son, your technical issues have nothing to do with the drivers are general nVidia hardware. Either you need to update your drivers, your Windows installation needs tweaking, or your card is damaged (highly doubtful).

As for games not being calibrated to run on GeForce cards, they are the most common desktop GPU's in the world, there isn't a game out there that isn't calibrated to run on them. I suggest you try to diagnose your problems before assuming that an entire series of cards is bad.

Anyway....I can only go by what the technician said. I am not a technician...so i have to believe it I Guess?

He directly said most things are made to run well with ATI sets. I didn't ASSUME that. I was told that by the techs/repairmen. If you weren't a comp person...and they told you that, why would you NOT believe them? They have no reason to lie.

Son, your technical issues have nothing to do with the drivers are general nVidia hardware. Either you need to update your drivers, your Windows installation needs tweaking, or your card is damaged (highly doubtful).

Well. All the techs that work there tend to think differently. I don't know. Now I am confused. They explicitly said Geforce line of cards suck compared to ATI. I doubt they are making any more money since the two cards he recomended were the same price, and I doubt he would get extra commission off off ATI products... Is he wrong or something?

I have all the system requirements, and no problems with any other game. I have the latest drivers and all updates. Nothing is wrong with the game, since other games of the same don't work either, even with patch. There is nothing possibly wrong he said except Geforce, cause he said he has the same specs, and it works fine minus the ATI.

Bought out? nVidia was never bought out. Don't you think you should check your info before going into a thread and spewing stuff with no informational value, especially when someone is trying to make a buying decision?

I have been wrong about ONE thing. Sue me. Misinformation. So....I actually DID check up on this before I posted it. I may not know EVERYTHING about computers like you

Thats why i ask questions. I can't help the people who answer the questions know as little as I do...apparently.

Oh. And please don't call me son. It is rather unnecessary, since I am sure you never made a mistake, right?

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-06-05 09:22pm

nimetski wrote: Anyway....I can only go by what the technician said. I am not a technician...so i have to believe it I Guess?

He directly said most things are made to run well with ATI sets. I didn't ASSUME that. I was told that by the techs/repairmen. If you weren't a comp person...and they told you that, why would you NOT believe them? They have no reason to lie.

What, you mean the computer repair people who are trained to repair existing hardware? Why do you assume they know shit about it? I've met several computer repair techs in my life, and all of them without exception were idiots. These people are trained to diagnose hardware issues, it isn't rocket science and it doesn't give them any sort of knowledge about the capabilities of various computer hardware. They think it does, but they do something for a living that most of the rest of us learned to do when we were children.

Well. All the techs that work there tend to think differently. I don't know. Now I am confused. They explicitly said Geforce line of cards suck compared to ATI. I doubt they are making any more money since the two cards he recomended were the same price, and I doubt he would get extra commission off off ATI products... Is he wrong or something?

No doubt they are what we refer to as "fanboys". Do you know what this term means? Neither ATI nor nVidia's hardware sucks and they both are market leaders in the industry. Both ATI and nVidia has relative strengths and OpenGL acceleration in professional applications just happens to be one of nVidia's strengths over ATI

I have all the system requirements, and no problems with any other game. I have the latest drivers and all updates. Nothing is wrong with the game, since other games of the same don't work either, even with patch. There is nothing possibly wrong he said except Geforce, cause he said he has the same specs, and it works fine minus the ATI.

Are you finished with your moronic appeals to authority? It isn't even a good authority either, there are any number of problems that could be wrong with the system and without knowing everything about your system, it is impossible to tell what that might be. If you want to start a thread about it be my guest, but don't try to use it to make knocks against a particular GPU design when you don't even know the problem yourself aside from vague claims from computer technicians, most of which are not remotely qualified to judge such a thing, especially if they haven't examined the PC itself.

I have been wrong about ONE thing. Sue me. Misinformation. So....I actually DID check up on this before I posted it. I may not know EVERYTHING about computers like you Thats why i ask questions. I can't help the people who answer the questions know as little as I do...apparently.

Then stop with your bizarre rantings about nebulous computer technicians and do your own research on the subject.

Oh. And please don't call me son. It is rather unnecessary, since I am sure you never made a mistake, right?

When I make a mistake, I expect to be called on it on this board. If I make a stupid statement, I expect to get ridiculed and flamed for it. The fact that I am doing neither should clue you in that I am trying to educate you, not make fun of you.

Boyish-Tigerlilly · Post by **Boyish-Tigerlilly** » 2004-06-05 10:07pm

What, you mean the computer repair people who are trained to repair existing hardware? Why do you assume they know shit about it? I've met several computer repair techs in my life, and all of them without exception were idiots. These people are trained to diagnose hardware issues, it isn't rocket science and it doesn't give them any sort of knowledge about the capabilities of various computer hardware. They think it does, but they do something for a living that most of the rest of us learned to do when we were children.

That was one of them yes. Well. Thanks then. I assumed they knew what they were talking about it. They make a good job of blithering on about it. What do you recomend?

No doubt they are what we refer to as "fanboys". Do you know what this term means? Neither ATI nor nVidia's hardware sucks and they both are market leaders in the industry. Both ATI and nVidia has relative strengths and OpenGL acceleration in professional applications just happens to be one of nVidia's strengths over ATI

I Guess you are right. I wouldn't, however, know the difference. I really don't know if they suck or not, I just read about it doing so. I am not qualified to make that judgement, just report it. Which do you recomend? I heard Geforce has a lot of problems as of late.

Are you finished with your moronic appeals to authority? It isn't even a good authority either, there are any number of problems that could be wrong with the system and without knowing everything about your system, it is impossible to tell what that might be. If you want to start a thread about it be my guest, but don't try to use it to make knocks against a particular GPU design when you don't even know the problem yourself aside from vague claims from computer technicians, most of which are not remotely qualified to judge such a thing, especially if they haven't examined the PC itself.

1. I am not trying to use appeal to authority. Did I not say I was misinformed by people whom I trusted? I thought the sources were reliable, since they were the salesment and techicians who work with the stuff. I generally trust those who have no reason to lie. I guess I won't in the future. Oh, G4 also didn't get that good of a rating compared to ATI equivalents in PC gamer. I guess they are wrong too? How am I supposed to know what to buy if I don't listen to those who review/sell them?

Then stop with your bizarre rantings about nebulous computer technicians and do your own research on the subject.

Research where? I have researched it, and all I hear is how bad my Geforce is, and how good ATI is. What do YOU suggest? I am not trying to be sarcastic either. I am very serious. I don't know where to go, since I hardly see Geforce in a good light anymore. The only one that was pretty good, (AGAIN, salesment heresay) was Geforce 2. *dones shield"

1.Salesmen sell it, and make no more commission off of one equally priced product than the other. They work with it and have to know what they are selling. That is hardly bizarre. It is more bizarre to think that all the reviewers/technicians are wrong about the products with which they work.

When I make a mistake, I expect to be called on it on this board. If I make a stupid statement, I expect to get ridiculed and flamed for it. The fact that I am doing neither should clue you in that I am trying to educate you, not make fun of you.

I expect you to tell me when I am wrong too. I guess I thought you were calling me stupid or something. That is how I interpreted it. Accept my apology?

Son, boy, and pops, seem very caustic, and they do have a negative connotation similiar to jackass, moron, stupid. I guess I wouldn't use anything like that to describe someone who made a poor choice in research personnel. I can't tell if that is the way everyone is here, since I see it so often, but please, I am sorry. I am just not like that.

As for the expecting ridicule for a mistake, that is ludicrous and unnessary. You can tell someone he is wrong without flaming. Do you not agree that is better?

Take you, for example. YOu seem like a knowledgeable guy. I can't fathom why someone would do that to you, knowning that you admit your mistakes. I think it's wrong.

Well. I'm off to Wawa. Thanks for telling me the TRUTH about Geforce. I WILL make another thread, cause its pissing me off why 3 of my Geforces won't work, and techs say its faulty card.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-06-05 10:18pm

nimetski wrote: That was one of them yes. Well. Thanks then. I assumed they knew what they were talking about it. They make a good job of blithering on about it. What do you recomend?

Depends entirely on your price range.

I Guess you are right. I wouldn't, however, know the difference. I really don't know if they suck or not, I just read about it doing so. I am not qualified to make that judgement, just report it. Which do you recomend? I heard Geforce has a lot of problems as of late.

nVidia as a company had a rocky time last year because of the logistical failure of the NV30. They recitified it quickly enough with NV35 and its derivatives, but the whole situation left a bad taste in peoples mouths.

1. I am not trying to use appeal to authority. Did I not say I was misinformed by people whom I trusted? I thought the sources were reliable, since they were the salesment and techicians who work with the stuff. I generally trust those who have no reason to lie. I guess I won't in the future. Oh, G4 also didn't get that good of a rating compared to ATI equivalents in PC gamer. I guess they are wrong too? How am I supposed to know what to buy if I don't listen to those who review/sell them?

G4? You mean that gaming cable network?

Sorry, but you don't want to trust G4 for your PC hardware reviews. PC Gamer is better, but Greg Vederman isn't a very knowledgeable hardware guy and his reviews are usually more of a rating on the package rather than the chip.

The best place to find this information is online. Tom's Hardware and Anandtech are two of the most popular and they give decent reviews of graphics and other PC hardware. If you are looking for a print publication, I recommend PC Gamer's counterpart Maximum PC.

Research where? I have researched it, and all I hear is how bad my Geforce is, and how good ATI is. What do YOU suggest? I am not trying to be sarcastic either. I am very serious. I don't know where to go, since I hardly see Geforce in a good light anymore. The only one that was pretty good, (AGAIN, salesment heresay) was Geforce 2. *dones shield"

Relax, I'm not going to flame you, I'm going to educate you. The GeForce 2 was NOT the last great nVidia card, even ATI fanboys would usually agree with me on that.

Look, what graphics card are you running in your system? It would help if I knew to figure out what your problem might be.

1.Salesmen sell it, and make no more commission off of one equally priced product than the other. They work with it and have to know what they are selling. That is hardly bizarre. It is more bizarre to think that all the reviewers/technicians are wrong about the products with which they work.

Reviewers don't rely on personal opinion, they provide substantive data from which the reader can draw their own conclusions. It's a little thing called "benchmarking".

I expect you to tell me when I am wrong too. I guess I thought you were calling me stupid or something. That is how I interpreted it. Accept my apology?

Son, boy, and pops, seem very caustic, and they do have a negative connotation similiar to jackass, moron, stupid. I guess I wouldn't use anything like that to describe someone who made a poor choice in research personnel. I can't tell if that is the way everyone is here, since I see it so often, but please, I am sorry. I am just not like that.

If you have a thin skin for being called son, I really doubt you'll like it much on this board...

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-06-05 10:22pm

ATI's drivers are still a problem, particularly in Linux. They haven't even bothered to make Linux drivers at all for many components in their vaunted motherboard chipsets.

Certain apps do run really well on ATI graphics cards, but hardcore Linux users should just forget anything that has the ATI logo anywhere on it, because even if the latest fglrx driver is OK, they just haven't shown the dedication that makes you want to rely on them in future. Their open neglect of Linux for their motherboard chipsets is a good example.

Boyish-Tigerlilly · Post by **Boyish-Tigerlilly** » 2004-06-06 04:56am

Look, what graphics card are you running in your system? It would help if I knew to figure out what your problem might be.

Oh. I have a 4600 Geforce model, non-MX. I dislike MX.

1. The problem, however, is odd. Geforce sets tend to give me a irritating artifacts
2. I have no problem in many things, but Alice and Warcraft would really get weird. While playable, Alice would be stetchy graphics with little lines all over when you jumped.

Warcraft was much worse. It would just "spontaneously" freeze up. Believe me when I say I checked every possible problem. I took it to about 4 techs and 1 columbus repairman. Nothing was wrong with the computer, and I even bought a new WC..sadly, since they don't do returns

(I understand why, however).

I asked him what is the problem. He they said condensed:

Nvidia is not all that great of a company anymore, and that this game, as well as many future games, are being more based in ATI. "They are more "stable." "While the Nvidia cards might 'work' they won't work as well, and there is no gaurantee they will work even if it says "tested" on the back"

G4? You mean that gaming cable network?

Did I start using non-sense abbreviations again? In MY mind, they work, but not in reality.