Graphicscard questions

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What graphics card to buy?

ATI Radeon X800 Pro
0
No votes
ATI Radeon X800 TD
5
83%
NVidea 6800 Ultra
1
17%
 
Total votes: 6

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The Kernel
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Post by The Kernel »

Sokartawi wrote:There's now a GeForce FX6800Ultra/TD for sale, 579 bucks.
Wait a few weeks and watch those prices fall fast.
As for Win98SE, I'm not switching for this system. Besides the videocard, there isn't any hardware going to be improved, and it's fast enough to last for a while.
How fast is this system? You need a certain amount of CPU power to get anything out of a modern video card in the first place.
Win2k might be a decent OS, but Ultima Online won't run on it in 3D mode.
Are you absolutely sure about this? I've never heard of any DirectX games that won't run equally well on Win2k and Win9x OS's.
Still it hogs way too much CPU. I often say "If an OS can't run on my 486, it's not an OS". For fun I've got a Cyrix266 /w 64MB RAM server running on Win98, with a couple of forums on invisionboard software. It has never crashed nor needed to reboot since february. It's probably insecure as hell, but so far there haven't been any problems.
Sorry, but this is the biggest pile of bullshit I've ever heard. Who gives a fuck if your OS will run on a fifteen year old processor? Win2k-based operating systems are the best that Microsoft has ever designed, they are more secure, they crash far less frequently and they are faster as long as you have a certain baseline hardware. Your attitude towards this is misguided at best.
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Post by The Kernel »

Nevermind about the system speed, I just saw your opening post. Not top of the line but fast enough, and you can stick a new Barton core Athlon XP in there for almost nothing and get a nice upgrade.
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Post by Pu-239 »

The Kernel wrote:
Sokartawi wrote:There's now a GeForce FX6800Ultra/TD for sale, 579 bucks.
Wait a few weeks and watch those prices fall fast.
As for Win98SE, I'm not switching for this system. Besides the videocard, there isn't any hardware going to be improved, and it's fast enough to last for a while.
How fast is this system? You need a certain amount of CPU power to get anything out of a modern video card in the first place.
Win2k might be a decent OS, but Ultima Online won't run on it in 3D mode.
Are you absolutely sure about this? I've never heard of any DirectX games that won't run equally well on Win2k and Win9x OS's.
Still it hogs way too much CPU. I often say "If an OS can't run on my 486, it's not an OS". For fun I've got a Cyrix266 /w 64MB RAM server running on Win98, with a couple of forums on invisionboard software. It has never crashed nor needed to reboot since february. It's probably insecure as hell, but so far there haven't been any problems.
Sorry, but this is the biggest pile of bullshit I've ever heard. Who gives a fuck if your OS will run on a fifteen year old processor? Win2k-based operating systems are the best that Microsoft has ever designed, they are more secure, they crash far less frequently and they are faster as long as you have a certain baseline hardware. Your attitude towards this is misguided at best.
Win2k probably will run decently on that Cyrix266, XP less so. As for the 486, who cares (though Windows has become bloated over the years (as all software has, esp Linux desktop environments, since code size expands to fill hardware capacity).

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Post by Shinova »

Sokartawi wrote:Uhh but I need 3D Max because I can use the stuff in games, like morrowind or games other people are making. Too bad it only supports 3D Max 3 and 4, I've seen 5 and that looks much easier. I don't care much about making movies etc...

Oh and no, I don't EVER want to go back to ANY kind of school again...
It's a common misconception that 3ds max is the only tool out there in creating games. :wink: Half-Life 2 is all XSI. Some Ubisoft game whos title I can't remember off the top of my head is all XSI. XSI can do games just as well as most other 3d programs.


And I taught myself XSI in about two weeks. Easy.
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Post by Sokartawi »

The Kernel wrote:Nevermind about the system speed, I just saw your opening post. Not top of the line but fast enough, and you can stick a new Barton core Athlon XP in there for almost nothing and get a nice upgrade.
Uhhh... The AMD 3200 is the fastest Barton-core CPU there is...
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Post by phongn »

Pu-239 wrote:And I've heard that 64-bit windows will actually *slow* 32-bit apps down. Then again, it seems you are thinking about 64 bit Linux ;).
XP64 carries somewhat more overhead than XP so it might well do that, plus things like drivers might not be optimized for AMD64/IA32e so that is another point of contention.
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Post by Sokartawi »

The Kernel wrote:
Sokartawi wrote:There's now a GeForce FX6800Ultra/TD for sale, 579 bucks.
Wait a few weeks and watch those prices fall fast.
Yah, no rush.
The Kernel wrote:
Win2k might be a decent OS, but Ultima Online won't run on it in 3D mode.
Are you absolutely sure about this? I've never heard of any DirectX games that won't run equally well on Win2k and Win9x OS's.
Uhhh there are plenty of them that didnt work on win2k. UO will start, but the textures will flicker allover the screen. Only option is to disable hardware acceleration, which makes the game unplayable as well. Metal Fatigue gave a black screen in Direct3D but works on OpenGL. Warlords Battlecry 1 and 2 freeze at the main menu. There were a couple of others as well, needless to say I got rid of 2k within a week.
The Kernel wrote:
Still it hogs way too much CPU. I often say "If an OS can't run on my 486, it's not an OS". For fun I've got a Cyrix266 /w 64MB RAM server running on Win98, with a couple of forums on invisionboard software. It has never crashed nor needed to reboot since february. It's probably insecure as hell, but so far there haven't been any problems.
Sorry, but this is the biggest pile of bullshit I've ever heard. Who gives a fuck if your OS will run on a fifteen year old processor? Win2k-based operating systems are the best that Microsoft has ever designed, they are more secure, they crash far less frequently and they are faster as long as you have a certain baseline hardware. Your attitude towards this is misguided at best.
It's all about the bloat factor of the OS. There is no reason for a decent OS to do all kinds of things behind my back I didn't ask for or waste CPU power on other things. If I wanted it to use CPU cycles, I'd run an APPLICATION, not the OS. Oh the good old days of DOS... As for stability, the server hasn't crashed, and I've had months on my game PC without crashes as well. IF it crashes it's because of overheating, which is a serious problem, but easily resolved by turning my huge fan on, or because I really did something messed up myself. There are no random crashes on my systems, and neither do I need to reboot because of the system getting too slow to do anything. The only exception is the horrible program called Paint, occasionally when I edit 6144x4096 sized bitmaps and I do something it suddenly sais "insufficient memory to complete the operation", then refuses to do anything. When I check I see I have 800+ MB left. Oh yeah, one more advantage of Windows98, if I don't have any application running, I can get more then 1000MB of free memory, usually 1003 or something like that. That's just 21MB for the OS and other crap. THAT's what I call an OS...
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Post by phongn »

Sokartawi wrote:Uhhh there are plenty of them that didnt work on win2k. UO will start, but the textures will flicker allover the screen. Only option is to disable hardware acceleration, which makes the game unplayable as well. Metal Fatigue gave a black screen in Direct3D but works on OpenGL. Warlords Battlecry 1 and 2 freeze at the main menu. There were a couple of others as well, needless to say I got rid of 2k within a week.
Bychance have you tried playing any of those games in Compatability mode? There is no particular reason they shouldn't run (perhaps other than bad coding).
It's all about the bloat factor of the OS. There is no reason for a decent OS to do all kinds of things behind my back I didn't ask for or waste CPU power on other things. If I wanted it to use CPU cycles, I'd run an APPLICATION, not the OS. Oh the good old days of DOS...
Uh, what is W2K doing behind your back that you don't like? A quick check of our home machines indicate that CPU usage is zeroed if you aren't doing anything.
The only exception is the horrible program called Paint, occasionally when I edit 6144x4096 sized bitmaps and I do something it suddenly sais "insufficient memory to complete the operation", then refuses to do anything. When I check I see I have 800+ MB left.
The Windows 9X version of Paint still has large amounts of legacy 16-bit code in it so it can't handle large images like that -- something it was never intended to do, anyways. It's the same reason W9X's Notepad can't open up large text files. Furthermore, W9X's memory management has issues with RAM sizes larger than 512MB (supposedly resolved, but I've heard the fix wasn't entirely satisfactory).
Oh yeah, one more advantage of Windows98, if I don't have any application running, I can get more then 1000MB of free memory, usually 1003 or something like that. That's just 21MB for the OS and other crap. THAT's what I call an OS...
The lack of NTFS alone is enough to ensure that I won't be running W9X. W2K can also be trimmed down a decent amount (IIRC, I've seen 40MB a few times; NT4 could fit in 20-odd MB) and will aggressively page itself to ensure applications get enough physical RAM.
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Post by Ace Pace »

You don't suppose its just YOUR PC which has problems, maybe because of heat?

My Athlon 2400+ 1024DDR runs WinXP\2000\98 fine (differant times, not multi-boot), theres not a single fucking problem.
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Post by Sokartawi »

phongn wrote:
Sokartawi wrote:Uhhh there are plenty of them that didnt work on win2k. UO will start, but the textures will flicker allover the screen. Only option is to disable hardware acceleration, which makes the game unplayable as well. Metal Fatigue gave a black screen in Direct3D but works on OpenGL. Warlords Battlecry 1 and 2 freeze at the main menu. There were a couple of others as well, needless to say I got rid of 2k within a week.
Bychance have you tried playing any of those games in Compatability mode? There is no particular reason they shouldn't run (perhaps other than bad coding).
Tried compatibility too. Doesn't help... If just UO would run decently I'd consider going to 2k... But I'd probably miss DOS too much...
phongn wrote:
It's all about the bloat factor of the OS. There is no reason for a decent OS to do all kinds of things behind my back I didn't ask for or waste CPU power on other things. If I wanted it to use CPU cycles, I'd run an APPLICATION, not the OS. Oh the good old days of DOS...
Uh, what is W2K doing behind your back that you don't like? A quick check of our home machines indicate that CPU usage is zeroed if you aren't doing anything.
2k I can tolerate, but won't run my games. XP is not fine...
phongn wrote:
The only exception is the horrible program called Paint, occasionally when I edit 6144x4096 sized bitmaps and I do something it suddenly sais "insufficient memory to complete the operation", then refuses to do anything. When I check I see I have 800+ MB left.
The Windows 9X version of Paint still has large amounts of legacy 16-bit code in it so it can't handle large images like that -- something it was never intended to do, anyways. It's the same reason W9X's Notepad can't open up large text files. Furthermore, W9X's memory management has issues with RAM sizes larger than 512MB (supposedly resolved, but I've heard the fix wasn't entirely satisfactory).
My freeserver uses about 700MB of RAM when fully spawned and when I'm logged on as well with a client. Never had a problem there, fortunately. At first win98 wouldn't start with more then 512MB, it would just go into reboot loops, but after limiting VCache it worked.
phongn wrote:
Oh yeah, one more advantage of Windows98, if I don't have any application running, I can get more then 1000MB of free memory, usually 1003 or something like that. That's just 21MB for the OS and other crap. THAT's what I call an OS...
The lack of NTFS alone is enough to ensure that I won't be running W9X. W2K can also be trimmed down a decent amount (IIRC, I've seen 40MB a few times; NT4 could fit in 20-odd MB) and will aggressively page itself to ensure applications get enough physical RAM.
Hmm 40MB? Maybe 2k will pass the test and work on my 486... If it doesn't require a pentiumclass CPU... What's the deal with NTFS? I never liked it, it won't get recognized in DOS, so that's why everything here, even the XP machines I don't own, all use FAT32. Works perfectly. I've heard rumours that it won't work with disks larger then 30MB, but that's a load of bullshit. The 486 uses a 80GB harddrive with a single partition and still works fine for several years now, even when 60GB+ is filled up. I don't think I need to say more.
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Post by Ace Pace »

Why are you so hung on DOS? I've yet to see any DOS game I can't run with some sacrifices on my XP machine, though admittedly I did some changes to the XP itself, nothing that hasn't been mentioned in the forums history.

Also, what was the problem with compability? have you tried patching it?
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Post by Sokartawi »

http://www.the-underdogs.org/game.php?gameid=1350
http://www.the-underdogs.org/game.php?gameid=1349

Here you've got something to waste your time on to try to get to work under WinXP. Bonuspoints if you can get sound. Good luck trying though... :twisted:

EDIT: UO autopatches since it's a MMORPG...
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Post by Ace Pace »

How can I get the first? the 2nd gives me error number 4.
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Post by Sokartawi »

Ace Pace wrote:How can I get the first? the 2nd gives me error number 4.
Hmm apparantly they removed the first. Doesn't matter. I don't know why the second one gives you errors, but if you have a moment I'll DL it and put it on my glorious win98 server downstairs :lol:

EDIT: Crap site, speed is even worse then my upstream here at home... Going to take at least 30 minutes...
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Post by Ace Pace »

Thanks
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Post by Sokartawi »

Heh, wasn't this thread about videocards... bah who cares, this is interesting too.

Speed just dropped to 8kbytes/sec... make that one hour...
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Post by Ace Pace »

Bah, ill be sleeping by then.

On the graphics cards, the Kernel has spoken :P
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Post by phongn »

Sokartawi wrote:Tried compatibility too. Doesn't help... If just UO would run decently I'd consider going to 2k... But I'd probably miss DOS too much...
The NT command shell is more powerful than DOS's command interpreter. You also get useful features like command completion* and you can have command history without being forced to load DOSKEY.

* In NT and 2K the functionality has to be activated via registry key; XP does it by default.
2k I can tolerate, but won't run my games. XP is not fine...
Why isn't it fine? I ran it ever since it came out without problem. It is more RAM-hungry, yes, but I currently have the GUI skinning service turned off. I use a rather large amount of memory on boot, but that's because I have numerous things turned on (virus scanner, firewall, PGP, large wallpaper, etc.)
My freeserver uses about 700MB of RAM when fully spawned and when I'm logged on as well with a client. Never had a problem there, fortunately. At first win98 wouldn't start with more then 512MB, it would just go into reboot loops, but after limiting VCache it worked.
Yes, but that's the problem -- W9X cannot utilize any of the >512MB memory area for cache. Modern operating systems will aggressively cache data (Unix-style OSs in particular; Linux and MacOS X will attempt to fill your RAM with cached data) to speed up overall performance. If you start running applications it'll move free up RAM, of course.
Hmm 40MB? Maybe 2k will pass the test and work on my 486... If it doesn't require a pentiumclass CPU... What's the deal with NTFS? I never liked it, it won't get recognized in DOS, so that's why everything here, even the XP machines I don't own, all use FAT32. Works perfectly. I've heard rumours that it won't work with disks larger then 30MB, but that's a load of bullshit. The 486 uses a 80GB harddrive with a single partition and still works fine for several years now, even when 60GB+ is filled up. I don't think I need to say more.
Windows 2000 on a 486 is pain. Hell, Windows 95 on a 486 wasn't too fun (I ran it for a short while on in i80486DX/33 w/ 32MB RAM).

The advantages of NTFS are numerous. Firstly, it is a journaled file system (in that it writes all operations in a journal). If the power suddenly goes out, it can reconstruct data from that journal on-the-fly. FAT is incapable of doing that and chkdsk/scandisk cannot always recover information; and if it does it is often written as binary data in incomprehensible files. Secondly, it has a more efficient file structure (esp. useful for very small files, which can be stored in the Master File Table). For all operations save one (I think creation) it is faster than FAT as well. For security purposes, it has Access Control Lists so you can decide who or what may access something. It also supports filesystem-level encryption and compression. Also, the cluster size may be specifically chosen in NTFS for any reasonably-sized volume while FAT32 choses for you.

FAT has a few advantages. It is simple to implement and its structure lends itself well to flash memory devices (where it is widely used). It is also readable by virtually all major operating systems (Linux, MacOS, Windows, etc.) so it has its uses as a scratch drive when multi-booting.

In an effort to force Windows users to stop using FAT32 as their main filesystem, Windows XP artificially limits you to a 32GB FAT32 partition with Microsoft's tools (third-party ones can create them up to the FAT32 size limit).
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Post by phongn »

Sokartawi wrote:http://www.the-underdogs.org/game.php?gameid=1350
http://www.the-underdogs.org/game.php?gameid=1349

Here you've got something to waste your time on to try to get to work under WinXP. Bonuspoints if you can get sound. Good luck trying though... :twisted:
Some DOS applications did weird voodoo to do what they did and Windows doesn't really support that for various reasons. Origin was particularly bad about this, if my memory serves me right.

A DOS application could expect to be the sole application running at any given time. Thus, it could make certain assumptions about memory management -- and it also enjoyed direct hardware access. Windows, being a multitasking enviornment, could not just let DOS applications run amok nor could it allow direct hardware access using the old calls. Eventually DirectX was created (after the failure of WinG) to allow a new method.
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Post by Sokartawi »

Crusader's done, can download it URL here

Edit, added color tag otherwise it might be overlooked.
phongn wrote:
Sokartawi wrote:2k I can tolerate, but won't run my games. XP is not fine...
Why isn't it fine? I ran it ever since it came out without problem. It is more RAM-hungry, yes, but I currently have the GUI skinning service turned off. I use a rather large amount of memory on boot, but that's because I have numerous things turned on (virus scanner, firewall, PGP, large wallpaper, etc.)
Besides the bloat bit, I can't help but get the paranoid feeling that it's doing things behind my back. I replaced a mobo once in an XP system. Windows refused to start, saying I changed hardware and I needed to register it with M$ again! WTF, why the hell are you even looking what I'm changing in my PC? Leave me alone, evil machine! *runs away screaming* :wink:
phongn wrote:
My freeserver uses about 700MB of RAM when fully spawned and when I'm logged on as well with a client. Never had a problem there, fortunately. At first win98 wouldn't start with more then 512MB, it would just go into reboot loops, but after limiting VCache it worked.
Yes, but that's the problem -- W9X cannot utilize any of the >512MB memory area for cache. Modern operating systems will aggressively cache data (Unix-style OSs in particular; Linux and MacOS X will attempt to fill your RAM with cached data) to speed up overall performance. If you start running applications it'll move free up RAM, of course.
You're indeed right in the aspect that it's better to make USE of the RAM instead of keeping it empty.
phongn wrote:
Hmm 40MB? Maybe 2k will pass the test and work on my 486... If it doesn't require a pentiumclass CPU... What's the deal with NTFS? I never liked it, it won't get recognized in DOS, so that's why everything here, even the XP machines I don't own, all use FAT32. Works perfectly. I've heard rumours that it won't work with disks larger then 30MB, but that's a load of bullshit. The 486 uses a 80GB harddrive with a single partition and still works fine for several years now, even when 60GB+ is filled up. I don't think I need to say more.
Windows 2000 on a 486 is pain. Hell, Windows 95 on a 486 wasn't too fun (I ran it for a short while on in i80486DX/33 w/ 32MB RAM).

The advantages of NTFS are numerous. Firstly, it is a journaled file system (in that it writes all operations in a journal). If the power suddenly goes out, it can reconstruct data from that journal on-the-fly. FAT is incapable of doing that and chkdsk/scandisk cannot always recover information; and if it does it is often written as binary data in incomprehensible files. Secondly, it has a more efficient file structure (esp. useful for very small files, which can be stored in the Master File Table). For all operations save one (I think creation) it is faster than FAT as well. For security purposes, it has Access Control Lists so you can decide who or what may access something. It also supports filesystem-level encryption and compression. Also, the cluster size may be specifically chosen in NTFS for any reasonably-sized volume while FAT32 choses for you.

FAT has a few advantages. It is simple to implement and its structure lends itself well to flash memory devices (where it is widely used). It is also readable by virtually all major operating systems (Linux, MacOS, Windows, etc.) so it has its uses as a scratch drive when multi-booting.
I'm not really caring about security, sure people could get into my PC, but nothing of the sort ever happened, well only once I got the opaserv worm, but that was a long time ago, noticed it immediately due to the harddisk activity and got rid of it without much effort. I'm the happy naive person trusting everyone will leave my poor PC alone :D . The journal system is indeed handy in case of a crash, but so far whenever something crashed the data recovery happened in DOS so... The filesystem being more friendly for small files is interesting as well, the freeserver I have depends on a huge amount of tiny uncompiled C# scripts, starting or backuping the thing is hell.
phongn wrote:In an effort to force Windows users to stop using FAT32 as their main filesystem, Windows XP artificially limits you to a 32GB FAT32 partition with Microsoft's tools (third-party ones can create them up to the FAT32 size limit).
Grr.... M$ interference in things that don't concern them... But meh, I use DOS debug and/or Maxblast for those kind of things anyway.
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Post by phongn »

Microsoft doesn't appear to actually know what hardware you have; XP is probably transmitting a hash of some IDs to them. It is a piracy-prevention method and while annoying they seem to be pretty understanding most of the time.

Your point about making use of the RAM...it is unclear. Windows doesn't just load stuff for the heck of it (mostly) ... it's not just wasting RAM because it feels like it.

The data recovery mechanism for FAT is much inferior to recovering data from a journal.

As for forcing people of FAT32 ... yes, it does concern them. Their attempts at improving security demand use of NTFS as does their attempts to improve reliability.
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Post by The Kernel »

Sokartawi wrote:
The Kernel wrote:Nevermind about the system speed, I just saw your opening post. Not top of the line but fast enough, and you can stick a new Barton core Athlon XP in there for almost nothing and get a nice upgrade.
Uhhh... The AMD 3200 is the fastest Barton-core CPU there is...
Sorry, I misread your opening post and thought you had a 2200+.
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Post by The Kernel »

Sokartawi wrote: Uhhh there are plenty of them that didnt work on win2k. UO will start, but the textures will flicker allover the screen. Only option is to disable hardware acceleration, which makes the game unplayable as well. Metal Fatigue gave a black screen in Direct3D but works on OpenGL. Warlords Battlecry 1 and 2 freeze at the main menu. There were a couple of others as well, needless to say I got rid of 2k within a week.
There are fansites out there that can help you get troublsome games running under 2k based OS'es, just do a Google search.
The Kernel wrote: It's all about the bloat factor of the OS. There is no reason for a decent OS to do all kinds of things behind my back I didn't ask for or waste CPU power on other things. If I wanted it to use CPU cycles, I'd run an APPLICATION, not the OS. Oh the good old days of DOS... As for stability, the server hasn't crashed, and I've had months on my game PC without crashes as well. IF it crashes it's because of overheating, which is a serious problem, but easily resolved by turning my huge fan on, or because I really did something messed up myself. There are no random crashes on my systems, and neither do I need to reboot because of the system getting too slow to do anything. The only exception is the horrible program called Paint, occasionally when I edit 6144x4096 sized bitmaps and I do something it suddenly sais "insufficient memory to complete the operation", then refuses to do anything. When I check I see I have 800+ MB left. Oh yeah, one more advantage of Windows98, if I don't have any application running, I can get more then 1000MB of free memory, usually 1003 or something like that. That's just 21MB for the OS and other crap. THAT's what I call an OS...
So what if the OS does things that you are unaware of? Do you think Win9x doesn't do this? At least in 2k you can look at the resource allocation of the OS.

And if you really want dedicated resources that badly, just get yourself a Hyper Threaded system or a cheap dual CPU system.
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Post by The Kernel »

phongn wrote:Microsoft doesn't appear to actually know what hardware you have; XP is probably transmitting a hash of some IDs to them. It is a piracy-prevention method and while annoying they seem to be pretty understanding most of the time.
Yeah, its all done with a hash ID, and there is a way around it. You can just buy a legal copy then install the Volume Licensing version floating around the Net which has this feature stripped out. The legality is slightly murky, but I don't think there's any moral problem with it since you are still paying for the OS.
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phongn
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Post by phongn »

The Kernel wrote:Yeah, its all done with a hash ID, and there is a way around it. You can just buy a legal copy then install the Volume Licensing version floating around the Net which has this feature stripped out. The legality is slightly murky, but I don't think there's any moral problem with it since you are still paying for the OS.
It's illegal since you only posses the license for the retail version (and not the VLK version), but morally its fine.
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