Muslim outrage?

[PainRack]

When voices of moderation go unheard

Relevent bit
LATE last month, Pakistan's President Pervez Musharraf spoke at a national student convention - the first in the history of Pakistan - and called on students to reject extremism, fanaticism, militancy and terrorism.

But did anyone notice? Major English newspapers in the world gave the speech limited coverage. The week's news in the Western media was on Pakistan getting back into the fold of the Commonwealth.

Here is something from what General Musharraf said: 'We have to save ourselves from extremists. Narrow-minded extremists are carrying out bomb blasts, targeted killings. In the name of what? In the name of Islam... Whosoever is doing this... They are the enemies of Islam. And you should take them as the enemies of Islam. Those who teach you extremism, who tell you that if you go and kill such and such person you will go to paradise, you should stop him.'

Now, let's take the grand sheikh of Egypt's Al-Azhar University, Dr Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi. A month earlier at the Conference of the Supreme Council for Islamic Affairs in Cairo, attended by delegations from 71 countries, he condemned extremists who 'savagely murder innocent people and then claim, when they are arrested, they did this to please God'.

'How did they come to this logic or understanding? This is something the devil himself would fail to understand because all divine religions say aggression and terrorism - which include murder, sabotage, theft and all other prohibited crimes - are prohibited,' he said.

Here was a grand ulama of Islam speaking out against extremists of his faith, and, like those of President Musharraf, his comments failed to capture Western media attention.

Such is the nature of journalism: Voices of moderation simply don't make good copy.

[Crown]

I actually saw the speach he gave (it was shown on SBS when they interviewed him), and I had read about the Egyptian cleric's views ... but the reporter is right, you have to go to really, really unsensational news outlets to even get a sniff of this stuff, and even then it is usually lost in the volume of other news.

[Guardsman Bass]

The problem is, to the students(and to us), Musharraf's speaking from a glass house- he's telling them to avoid militarism when he used his army to put down militants in his own country, and to keep hold against his own people. Plus, of course, he is already very unpopular there.

[Gil Hamilton]

As Guardsman Bass said, Musharraf is one of the last persons that should talk about avoiding militarism and force for political ends. If he said "Terrorism and using strongman military tactics are bad, double bad... except if you get a fancy military uniform and successfully pull off the coup, then they are progressive nation building techniques."

[Joe]

Who cares if this didn't get reported (and Musharraf's stance on fundamentalist Islam has already been reported, anyway)? The media, the President, and even most Americans have been falling all over themselves with this "religion of peace" crap for the last two and a half years. There's no conspiracy to demonize Islam, if anything it needs to be demonized more.

[Plekhanov]

I’m no fan of Musharraf but you’re getting him wrong here the article reports him as calling upon (my caps)

students to reject extremism, fanaticism, MILITANCY and terrorism.

this isn’t the same as militarism he’s calling for them to restrict their use of force to a cynical, considered, self serving way like he, Bush and Blair (and in fact most other leaders) do rather than in a moronic fundie way.

[Crown]

I'm not sure what time of the month it is in Washington D.C. right now, but someone want to hip me as to whether it is 'Tyrant General' Musharraf, 'President' Musharraf, or 'Special Ally President' Musharraf right now? I've lost track.

Isn't just so convient when you can expose hyporcrasy to discredit the intention of an entire article...

[Gil Hamilton]

Who cares if this didn't get reported (and Musharraf's stance on fundamentalist Islam has already been reported, anyway)? The media, the President, and even most Americans have been falling all over themselves with this "religion of peace" crap for the last two and a half years. There's no conspiracy to demonize Islam, if anything it needs to be demonized more.

Wouldn't demonizing Islam more only cause problems for us? When you dehumanize an enemy, it makes them easier to destroy but it also leads to that Abu Gharib bullshit. If you pump up your people with the idea that your foe is actually evil and subhuman, responsibility falls upon you when they do bad shit because of it. Best course of action is to be specific and accurate.

[BoredShirtless]

There's no conspiracy to demonize Islam, if anything it needs to be demonized more.

Yep, that'd work.

[Plekhanov]

Who cares if this didn't get reported (and Musharraf's stance on fundamentalist Islam has already been reported, anyway)? The media, the President, and even most Americans have been falling all over themselves with this "religion of peace" crap for the last two and a half years. There's no conspiracy to demonize Islam,

There may be “no conspiracy to demonise Islam” I don’t think that anybody is suggesting there is but the news values of much of the media mean that their might as well be a conspiracy. Look at the UK for example a moronic nutter with a tiny number of followers like Abu Hamza is all over the press whereas the moderate clerics supported by the vast majority of muslim’s here only get a small quote of rebuttal in. The massive coverage given to the likes of Hamza more than offsets the occasional sound bite from gov ministers about the “true meaning of Islam”.

if anything it needs to be demonized more.

Why what possible good would a deliberate effort to demonize Islam do?

[Joe]

Who cares if this didn't get reported (and Musharraf's stance on fundamentalist Islam has already been reported, anyway)? The media, the President, and even most Americans have been falling all over themselves with this "religion of peace" crap for the last two and a half years. There's no conspiracy to demonize Islam, if anything it needs to be demonized more.

Wouldn't demonizing Islam more only cause problems for us? When you dehumanize an enemy, it makes them easier to destroy but it also leads to that Abu Gharib bullshit. If you pump up your people with the idea that your foe is actually evil and subhuman, responsibility falls upon you when they do bad shit because of it. Best course of action is to be specific and accurate.

My point is that people need to realize that Islam is an actual and active part of the problem, not a peaceful religion hijacked by a few extremists.

[Plekhanov]

My point is that people need to realize that Islam is an actual and active part of the problem, not a peaceful religion hijacked by a few extremists.

Why is Islam necessarily any worse than other religions?

[Joe]

My point is that people need to realize that Islam is an actual and active part of the problem, not a peaceful religion hijacked by a few extremists.

Why is Islam necessarily any worse than other religions?

It isn't really worse than say Christianity, there are just less people among Christians who seriously believe all the really nasty shit in their holy texts about killing people who don't believe in their particular sky pixie than there are among Muslims.

[BoredShirtless]

My point is that people need to realize that Islam is an actual and active part of the problem, not a peaceful religion hijacked by a few extremists.

You're so full of shit. Try and justify your bullshit.

[BoredShirtless]

My point is that people need to realize that Islam is an actual and active part of the problem, not a peaceful religion hijacked by a few extremists.

Why is Islam necessarily any worse than other religions?

It isn't really worse than say Christianity, there are just less people among Christians who seriously believe all the really nasty shit in their holy texts about killing people who don't believe in their particular sky pixie than there are among Muslims.

So now the reason why Islam is worse then Christianity is because there are more extermists? That flies right into the face of the post quoted at the top of my post. Christ you're an idiot.

[Joe]

My point is that people need to realize that Islam is an actual and active part of the problem, not a peaceful religion hijacked by a few extremists.

You're so full of shit. Try and justify your bullshit.

From the Koran:

IX. 5-6: “Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find them”

IV.76: “Those who believe fight in the cause of God”

VIII.39-42: “Say to the Infidels: if they desist from their unbelief, what is now past shall be forgiven; but if they return to it, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God’s.”

IV.74: “Let those who fight in the cause of God who barter the life of this world for that which is to come; for whoever fights on God’s path, whether he is killed or triumphs, We will give him a handsome reward.”

An extensive list:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/q ... /long.html

Yeah, "peaceful"

[Plekhanov]

It isn't really worse than say Christianity, there are just less people among Christians who seriously believe all the really nasty shit in their holy texts about killing people who don't believe in their particular sky pixie than there are among Muslims.

Ok then if you want to start some kind of atheistic campaign to demonise all religions (and I mean just the religious beliefs not the races and culture that traditionally go with any given religion) I don’t really have a problem with that. But from the context of your original post it sounded like you intended just to demonise Islam (even more than it is already) which would be a disastrous move in the current geopolitical climate.

[Joe]

So now the reason why Islam is worse then Christianity is because there are more extermists? That flies right into the face of the post quoted at the top of my post. Christ you're an idiot.

Wow, I thought the fact that I said Islam "isn't really worse than Christianity" would be interpreted to mean that I didn't think Islam wasn't really worse than Christianity, but apparently this is too much for you to comprehend.

[Joe]

I'm not sure what time of the month it is in Washington D.C. right now, but someone want to hip me as to whether it is 'Tyrant General' Musharraf, 'President' Musharraf, or 'Special Ally President' Musharraf right now? I've lost track.

Pakistan is I believe the only Muslim country deploying troops (a lot of them, at that) to hunt down terrorists, so I would guess the latter.

[MKSheppard]

Why is Islam necessarily any worse than other religions?

Because they consider dogs unclean. Seriously, there's a long post
somewhere that illustrates how backward and fanatic islam was
to other religions in the 1800s

[kojikun]

Just to play Musharrafs Advocate (I happen to like the guy in spite of himself), he lead a military coup specifically to PREVENT radical Muslim's from turning Pakistan to shit. So it's understandable how he could say these things without being hypocritical. He actually did more for freedom in Pakistan by leading a military coup than the coutnry otherwise would have.

[TheDarkling]

Because they consider dogs unclean. Seriously, there's a long post
somewhere that illustrates how backward and fanatic islam was
to other religions in the 1800s

The problem with Islam is that they were so happy at being in the lead (technologically and culturally) during the 11th century that they decided to stay there.

[kojikun]

I don't think they stayed there in the 11th century, I think the extremists regressed to levels of barbarity that their 11th century counterparts would consider absurd..

[The Third Man]

Look at the UK for example a moronic nutter with a tiny number of followers like Abu Hamza is all over the press whereas the moderate clerics supported by the vast majority of muslim’s here only get a small quote of rebuttal in

There are some interesting and IMHO somewhat alarming numbers to look at here at the Scotsman, that flesh out your "tiny" and "vast majority"

Two highlights are:
Of UK muslims, 13% said attacks on the US by AQ are justified
73% were opposed to terrorist strikes on the US

I don't subscribe to the idea that "Islam is the problem", as, like most religions, it can be interpreted to suit the opinions of the individual. I would say that many Muslims are - for a variety of reasons - angry, and that they therefore latch onto the more violent interpretations.

[ArmorPierce]

From the Koran:

IX. 5-6: “Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find them”

IV.76: “Those who believe fight in the cause of God”

VIII.39-42: “Say to the Infidels: if they desist from their unbelief, what is now past shall be forgiven; but if they return to it, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God’s.”

IV.74: “Let those who fight in the cause of God who barter the life of this world for that which is to come; for whoever fights on God’s path, whether he is killed or triumphs, We will give him a handsome reward.”

An extensive list:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/q ... /long.html

Yeah, "peaceful"

a lot of that runs in contrary to these:

"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, and do not transgress; for Allah loveth not transgressors." (Surah 2, Verse 190).

"But if they cease (fighting you), Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (Surah 2, Verse 192).

"But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is the One that Heareth and Knoweth (all things)." (Surah 8, Verse 61).

"The prohibited month, for the prohibited month, and so for all things prohibited, there is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, transgress ye likewise against him. But fear Allah, and know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves." (Surah 2, Verse 194).

" ... and let not the hatred of some people in (once) shutting you out of the Sacred Mosque lead you to transgression (and hostility on your part). Help ye one another in righteousness and piety, but help ye not one another in sin and rancour: fear Allah: for Allah is strict in punishment." (Surah 5, Verse 2).

"Nor can Goodness and Evil be equal. Repel (Evil) with what is better: then will he between whom and thee was hatred become as it were thy friend and intimate!" (Surah 41, Verse 34).

"O ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do." (Surah 4, Verse 135).

"God advocates justice, charity, and regarding the relatives. And He forbids evil, vice, and transgression. He enlightens you, that you may take heed." (Surah 16, Verse 90).

"And if ye do punish them, punish them no worse than they punished you: but if ye show patience, that is indeed the best (course) for those who are patient." (Surah 16, Verse 126).

Seems to run in contrary to kill all people of other beliefs:

"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects Evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things." (Surah 2, Verse 256).

"If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge." (Surah 9, Verse 6).

Also according to the Koran, this is when they are allowed to fight:

"Permission [to fight] is granted to those who are being persecuted, since injustice has befallen them, and God is certainly able to support them [with victory].
They were evicted from their homes unjustly, for no reason other than saying, "Our Lord is God." If it were not for God's supporting of some people against others, monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques - where the name of God is commemorated frequently - would have been destroyed. Absolutely, God supports those who support Him. God is Powerful, Almighty." (Surah 22, Verses 39-40).

On the treatment of civillians:

"O Prophet! say to those who are captives in your hands: If Allah findeth any good in your hearts, He will give you something better than what has been taken from you, and He will forgive you: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (Surah 8, Verse 70).

And they feed, for the love of Allah, the indigent, the orphan, and the captive, (Saying), We feed you for the sake of Allah alone: no reward do we desire from you, nor thanks." (Surah 76, Verses 8-9).

"Do not kill women or children or non-combatants and do not kill old people or religious people,'' and he mentioned priests, nuns and rabbis. And he said, "Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees and do not poison the wells of your enemies."