Islamic Militant Training Camp in Alabama - From 25 July.

OT: anything goes!

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Admiral Piett
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Post by Admiral Piett »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Trying to attack the actual organizations is useless, totally useless, though obviously necessary if they're actually inside the USA. We must remember however that our enemy is not terrorists alone, and that terrorists cannot operate without a support structure. That support structure is fully open to assault.

What we need to do is engage in ermattungsstrategie, as it is called in German. Operations of economic exhaustion, an effort designed to destroy enemy coalitions, remove sources of supply, and shake the spiritual will of the enemy.

Taking into account the fact that our military is very good at fighting conventional ground wars, but we are not as good at counterrorism or antiguerilla operations, our targets should therefor be the countries that fund, and provide spiritual support for, terrorist organizations.

We should use the massive ability of western countries to absorb damage in an extended conflict (What we've suffered so far is a pinprick at best) to resist the efforts of the terrorists while we use our armies, intended for stand-up decisive confrontations, to overthrow the governments of the countries that fund them, that provide spiritual will for their efforts, and that provide weapons and arms for their actions.

Then rebuilding those countries with secular and democratic governments, and if necessary with a period of MacArthurian Regency firstly, and instituting a full Marshall-type plan for those countries that we rebuild in that fashion (And thus demonstrating clear advantages to having your country worked over like that), we can remove the bite from terrorism.

In the short term terrorism would get worse. But it would never get bad enough to actually threaten the foundations of western civilization, and by the time we were done, the countries that provide the support to the terrorists would be gone, and would instead be allies. Funding, supplies, recruitment and reinforcement to terrorism - This would all be dried up or at least massively reduced.

And so by being willing to ride out the storm and endure the casualties while we rebuilt the middle east with force, when we had finished doing that, the terrorist organizations would "wither on the vine", so to speak, like the Japanese island garrisons in WWII, from the lack of support and interest in their causes.

That is a real and effectual strategy that we ought to be persuing; the problem is that it requires thinking in the long term, probably a fifty or even eighty year conflict, and accepting up to tens of thousands of casualties at home, and potentially hundreds of thousands or more abroad.

But if we don't do it, the problem will simply continue to get worse, because trying to counter the groups themselves will simply not work. Destroy one and another will indeed take its place.
Duchess,you are thinking to Al Queda style organizations in strictly military terms.You depict them as a sort of military branch of the islamic states.This is a great and bad mistake.Terrorist organizations are not armies.
Do you really expect that you will be able to starve them by invading all the countries on the US blacklist?
May I remember you that the algerians financed their war of independence
by self imposed taxation? Certainly you can eliminate the Saudi businnessmen.But you cannot put the entire economy of the muslim world under direct control.What are you suggesting will transform large portions
of the muslim populations into active Al Quaeda supporters.And please,
no "they already hate us" bullshit.From a PRACTICAL (not philosophical) point of view there is a substantial difference between saying "America deserve it" without raising a fist to help terrorists and start to funnel funds into terrorist organizations.Of course 9/11 style attacks may become a bit more difficult to organize at the beginning.But as recent facts have clearly demonstrated (sniper) you do not need millions of dollars worh of logistics to scare the hell out of a country.
Speaking about damage I do not understand what you mean.Terrorists cannot destroy the US in anycase,unless they manage to procure and smuggle in the US a trainload of nuclear weapons under your nose,which is somewhat doubtful.They cannot simply organize 9/11 on a mothly basis.So your fear for total destruction are rather misplaced.They can only cause that type of damage you deem as "acceptable".They cannot "threaten the
foundations of the western civilization",or better,not in the way you mean.
Then you are grossly overestimating your much vaunted "nation building"
capabilities.I suspect that this comes from watching Germany and Japan from the US.I do not deny that the US helped a lot,but speaking frankly the Germans and the Japaneses deserve the bulk of the credit.
You do not have the magic ability to turn a country from a hopeless shithole into a working western democracy by your mere presence.That is just propaganda.Afghanistan is and will remain a shithole.
You might be able to rebuild Iraq,but turning it into a working democracy is a different history.And for others countries on the US blacklist the perspectives are even worse.You will find yourself garrisoning countries where the population will see you as invaders,and terrorists as freedom fighters fighting against the neocolonial occupation,and certainly looting oil reserves as you (for you I mean you,Duchess) have already suggested in the past will not certainly weaken this impression.I am not saying that there will be waves of terrorist strikes and insurgencies everywhere.But those countries will remain hostile.
Bottom line,you strategy will increase popular suppor for the terrorist cause
in the hope to damage its logistical train.But popular support is exactly what terrorism really needs to prosper.The logistics lost can be at least partially restored by the increased popular support.
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Admiral Piett
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Post by Admiral Piett »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Trying to attack the actual organizations is useless, totally useless, though obviously necessary if they're actually inside the USA. We must remember however that our enemy is not terrorists alone, and that terrorists cannot operate without a support structure. That support structure is fully open to assault.

What we need to do is engage in ermattungsstrategie, as it is called in German. Operations of economic exhaustion, an effort designed to destroy enemy coalitions, remove sources of supply, and shake the spiritual will of the enemy.

Taking into account the fact that our military is very good at fighting conventional ground wars, but we are not as good at counterrorism or antiguerilla operations, our targets should therefor be the countries that fund, and provide spiritual support for, terrorist organizations.

We should use the massive ability of western countries to absorb damage in an extended conflict (What we've suffered so far is a pinprick at best) to resist the efforts of the terrorists while we use our armies, intended for stand-up decisive confrontations, to overthrow the governments of the countries that fund them, that provide spiritual will for their efforts, and that provide weapons and arms for their actions.

Then rebuilding those countries with secular and democratic governments, and if necessary with a period of MacArthurian Regency firstly, and instituting a full Marshall-type plan for those countries that we rebuild in that fashion (And thus demonstrating clear advantages to having your country worked over like that), we can remove the bite from terrorism.

In the short term terrorism would get worse. But it would never get bad enough to actually threaten the foundations of western civilization, and by the time we were done, the countries that provide the support to the terrorists would be gone, and would instead be allies. Funding, supplies, recruitment and reinforcement to terrorism - This would all be dried up or at least massively reduced.

And so by being willing to ride out the storm and endure the casualties while we rebuilt the middle east with force, when we had finished doing that, the terrorist organizations would "wither on the vine", so to speak, like the Japanese island garrisons in WWII, from the lack of support and interest in their causes.

That is a real and effectual strategy that we ought to be persuing; the problem is that it requires thinking in the long term, probably a fifty or even eighty year conflict, and accepting up to tens of thousands of casualties at home, and potentially hundreds of thousands or more abroad.

But if we don't do it, the problem will simply continue to get worse, because trying to counter the groups themselves will simply not work. Destroy one and another will indeed take its place.
The strategy you are suggesting is highly counterproductive.You think to terrorists as an army.
Terrorist organization are not armies wich require massive logistical trains.
By invading muslim countries you may damage their logistics but the price is an increase of popular support in the terrorist cause.And please no "they already hate us" bullshit.From a practical (not philosophical) point of view there is a certain difference between saying "America deserve it" without raising a fist and sending money to Al Quaeda.
Popular support is what terrorism really requires to prosper.Lack of it is really what makes a terrorist organization "wither on the vine".Although you may be able to make 9/11 style terrorist strikes more difficult like the sniper has recently demonstrated, you do not really need massive resources to scare the hell out of a country.
May I remeber you that the Algerians financed their war of independence by self imposed taxation? Do you really think that a similar thing could not happen for the terrorists? Popular support can replace easily those Saudi princes and it is not like you can control totally the economy of muslim states.You will find yourself garrisoning countries where you will be perceived as the neocolonial oppressors and the terrorists as the freedom fighters.And certainly looting their oil reseves as you,Duchess, have suggested in the past is not going to change this impression.
You are also grossly overestimating your nation building capabilties.Probably this comes from watching Germany and Japan from the US.But while the US helped a lot in reality the Germans and the japaneses deserve the bulk of the credit.Afghanistan is and will remain a shithole.
You might be able to rebuild Iraq but turning it into a working democracy is an entirely different history.And for the others countries on the US blacklist perspectives are even worse,if possible.
You are also overestimating the amount of damage terrorists can make.
Unless they manage to procure and smuggle in the US under your nose trainloads of nuclear weapons they cannot destroy your country.And they cannot even organize 9/11 style terrorist strikes on a monthly basis.They can only cause the type of damage you deem as "acceptable",a few tens thousands of casualties.But nothing more.That is the limit of terrorism.Terrorists cannot destroy the US in the way you are suggesting.
If this is your long term planning I am scared.
By the way f you (americans) really fear nuclear weapons as you claim you could help more the russians securing their nuclear stockpiles.Current progrmas there receives only a portion of the plannned funding.That would only cost a very tiny fraction of what you are going to spend to attack Iraq.

Edit
Sorry for the double post,but I thought that the original was lost so I rewrote it with some modifications.Since there are some additional things I will leave it.
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Post by Guest »

Enlightenment wrote:
Next of Kin wrote:This is quite troublesome...how does a government stamp out these organizations; they're like cockroaches. Step on one and then the others flee and even the one that was squished might not even be dead!
They're worse than cockroaches. When one kills a cockroach the survivors don't breed another on in response.

So-called 'moderate' Islamics, on the other hand, tend to view any and all efforts to contain radical groups as attacks on Islam and they themselves will radicalize in response. The only way to really deal with this problem is a planet-sized can of anti-human RAID. Death solves all problems.

On a more limited scale, western countries could get a reasonable measure of peace by trading pluralism for pragmatism and outlawing the presense of Islamics within their borders. Deportation and internment should be enough in most cases although extermination has a nice ring to it in heavily infested areas.

And yes, I am dead serious.
It may come to this someday if the Muslims don't get their shit together and reform themselves. We (the non-Muslim world) may have to do it for them. That wouldn't be pretty.
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CmdrWilkens
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Post by CmdrWilkens »

Commander LeoRo wrote:
Enlightenment wrote:
Next of Kin wrote:This is quite troublesome...how does a government stamp out these organizations; they're like cockroaches. Step on one and then the others flee and even the one that was squished might not even be dead!
They're worse than cockroaches. When one kills a cockroach the survivors don't breed another on in response.

So-called 'moderate' Islamics, on the other hand, tend to view any and all efforts to contain radical groups as attacks on Islam and they themselves will radicalize in response. The only way to really deal with this problem is a planet-sized can of anti-human RAID. Death solves all problems.

On a more limited scale, western countries could get a reasonable measure of peace by trading pluralism for pragmatism and outlawing the presense of Islamics within their borders. Deportation and internment should be enough in most cases although extermination has a nice ring to it in heavily infested areas.

And yes, I am dead serious.
It may come to this someday if the Muslims don't get their shit together and reform themselves. We (the non-Muslim world) may have to do it for them. That wouldn't be pretty.

"Those heathens must be shown the light."

Thank you for, in a very small space, point to the very same reasoning that led to the Euopean colonization of Africa and the myriad problems that have arisne from the force used to crush the local culture and conform it to European norms. In other words thanks for proving that all of us (non-Muslims) are obviously the superior race. *sigh*
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Post by Enlightenment »

CmdrWilkens wrote:
"Those heathens must be shown the light."

Thank you for, in a very small space, point to the very same reasoning that led to the Euopean colonization of Africa and the myriad problems that have arisne from the force used to crush the local culture and conform it to European norms. In other words thanks for proving that all of us (non-Muslims) are obviously the superior race. *sigh*
The west doesn't have to bring the terrorist world up to the standards of modern civilization. That would be a waste of effort, money, and western lives. All we need to do is wipe out the members of the terrorist world (that is to say, most of them) who find our continued existance so objectionable that they'd like to kill us. This is by no means the same thing as what colonialists euphimistically referred to as bringing civilization to the savages.
It's not my place in life to make people happy. Don't talk to me unless you're prepared to watch me slaughter cows you hold sacred. Don't talk to me unless you're prepared to have your basic assumptions challenged. If you want bunnies in light, talk to someone else.
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