What weapon killed Luke's family in ANH?

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Kurgan
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Post by Kurgan »

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Yes, it is officially a thermal detonator. I was only correcting you on the nature of Brown's speculation: he knew it was a thermal detonator, but suggested that it might have originally designed to be a lightsabre.

Ok cool. And I actually agree with you. Sorry if that wasn't clear in my post. Clearly Stormtroopers don't carry lightsabers in the canon films.
YT300000 wrote:
Kurgan wrote:PS: I know TD's are supposed to be able to "level buildings" (per EU) but do we have to assume that the "silver baseball" type one (as seen in ROTJ) has to be the same yield as the back-of-stormy variety?
No we don't, because that would be stupid. The "baseball" is a Class A, and stormies carry the much weaker Class C.

According to official sources, the Class A annihilates everything within 20 m and leaves the stuff outside that radius untouched. The Class C has a 5 m radius. Although the idea of an explosion restrained like this is odd, if not ludicrous.

EDIT: Not to mention physically impossible.
Maybe it's some exotic use of force field technology. Well we've never seen one used, so I guess we're free speculate what it could be, though the EU takes away some of that freedom.
Last edited by Kurgan on 2004-06-08 10:24pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by YT300000 »

Kurgan wrote:Maybe it's some exotic use of force field technology.
Therin lies the problem- the forcefield would be generated by the TD itself. But by the time the explosion reaches where it should be stopped, the generator is already destroyed by the explosion.
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Post by Elfdart »

Darth Wong wrote:
Elfdart wrote:I'm going by what actually appears on the screen. When Luke returns, something in the underground courtyard is on fire (what is on fire is irrelevant: something is burning down there -nice try for a red herring, Darth), hence the billowing black smoke.
It's not a red-herring at all, and you're either being deliberately or unintentionally stupid. If the structure of the domicile is not flammable, then a human in that domicile will not be burned to the bone just because something in there is lit afire. If you took a concrete bunker, scattered some objects in there, and lit them on fire, a human in that bunker would most likely die of smoke inhalation, not having all of the flesh burned off his skeleton.

Your theory requires that they staggered to the door and most of the way up the stairs before collapsing (at which point they would still need their musculature and their internal organs to be in working order) and then the flesh was all burned off. What kind of fire, burning somewhere else in the compound, would cause this to happen, pray tell? How do you just "torch" a concrete structure in such a manner that someone staggers OUT Of the building and THEN has all of the flesh and muscles and organs burned off his skeleton?
They were probably shot at the top of the stairs while fleeing the burning building. The burned bodies would not have needed much fuel once they started burning. The "wick effect" would have taken over at that point and left their corpses tp smolder.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Elfdart wrote:They were probably shot at the top of the stairs while fleeing the burning building. The burned bodies would not have needed much fuel once they started burning.
And again, the question must be asked: what is this "fuel"? What is your evidence that they brought incendiaries along with them?
The "wick effect" would have taken over at that point and left their corpses tp smolder.
The "wick effect" consumes the bones. No go.
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Post by BlkbrryTheGreat »

Your theory requires that they staggered to the door and most of the way up the stairs before collapsing (at which point they would still need their musculature and their internal organs to be in working order) and then the flesh was all burned off. What kind of fire, burning somewhere else in the compound, would cause this to happen, pray tell? How do you just "torch" a concrete structure in such a manner that someone staggers OUT Of the building and THEN has all of the flesh and muscles and organs burned off his skeleton?
If they ran out of the building with Napalm stuck to them, it would probably do the trick. Of course, this is just to answer the rhetorical question, not suggesting that that actually happened.
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Post by Darth Wong »

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:If they ran out of the building with Napalm stuck to them, it would probably do the trick. Of course, this is just to answer the rhetorical question, not suggesting that that actually happened.
Hence why I asked Elfdart many posts ago whether they brought jerrycans of gasoline with them :)
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Post by Trytostaydead »

Ted C wrote:You have to wonder if there wasn't something personal going on with the murder of the Lars and the destruction of their home. Vader had visited this place before, after all. His mother was even buried there.
See? Now that's probably just GL screwin' with the timeline again. From everything we've seen, Anakin loved his mom very much and these people were part of the family that freed her, gave her love and a family. I see nothing wrong, and Vader didn't yet know they were hiding Luke out there. Perhaps Episode III will tie it in, though I doubt it.
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Post by The Yosemite Bear »

also why since Lucas wrote the basic screenplay for Apacalypse now, around the same time he was working on StarWars, just gave the project to His boss Coppala to work out the details. I made the joking suggestions that purhaps some Imperial Kilgore was in the area, somehow that crazy officer would make perfect sense in the imperial army, now why we had to send some sith adept to some back water planet, to assassinate marlon brando and kill a donkey I'm not sure.....
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Post by Elfdart »

Darth Wong wrote:
Elfdart wrote:They were probably shot at the top of the stairs while fleeing the burning building. The burned bodies would not have needed much fuel once they started burning.
And again, the question must be asked: what is this "fuel"? What is your evidence that they brought incendiaries along with them?
The "wick effect" would have taken over at that point and left their corpses tp smolder.
The "wick effect" consumes the bones. No go.
Who says the troopers needed gasoline or napalm (I know I suggested the latter as a possibility.) or some other flammable liquid to burn the Lars homestead? Setting a house and/ or the items inside on fire isn't that difficult and doesn't require gasoline. The stormtroopers who killed the Jawas carried all kinds on extra gear -including Tusken weapons and Banthas- to conceal their atrocities. Is it farfetched to think they had something they could set on fire and hurl into the main gallery of the Lars' home and that the fire could spread from there to the clothes, furniture and other items in the home -including the clothes Owen and Beru were wearing? Once that happens, the "wick effect" takes over.

The "wick effect" can take several hours to completely consume the bones and destroys the skin, fat and flesh first. Since there is no sure way to tell how much time passed between the stormtroopers doing the deed and Luke's discovery of his family's corpses, it's a strong possibility.
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Post by Meest »

Trytostaydead wrote: See? Now that's probably just GL screwin' with the timeline again. From everything we've seen, Anakin loved his mom very much and these people were part of the family that freed her, gave her love and a family. I see nothing wrong, and Vader didn't yet know they were hiding Luke out there. Perhaps Episode III will tie it in, though I doubt it.
Maybe in Episode 3 Anakin has an argument with Owen or something of that nature. Not sure if Owen is listed in Episode 3 cast, pretty sure he's around the birth scene.

About the wick effect. From what I remember it seemed the burning had stopped. Also a more likely accelerant of the possible effect was in fact blaster fire instead of the more complicated grenade/secondary burning scenario.
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Post by Kurgan »

YT300000 wrote:
Kurgan wrote:Maybe it's some exotic use of force field technology.
Therin lies the problem- the forcefield would be generated by the TD itself. But by the time the explosion reaches where it should be stopped, the generator is already destroyed by the explosion.
It's the same problem with the Seismic Charges, though that was Mike's suggestion and not anything canon. Likewise, that's where I got the idea.
; )

Maybe it's a silly idea, like the one-way microtransporters in Trek.

snip various comments
While it sounds cool to have a "torture slow burn beam" setting on the guns that the Troops were carrying, maybe having the TD's be "napalm bombs" makes more sense.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Elfdart wrote:Who says the troopers needed gasoline or napalm (I know I suggested the latter as a possibility.) or some other flammable liquid to burn the Lars homestead? Setting a house and/ or the items inside on fire isn't that difficult and doesn't require gasoline.
It's difficult when the house is made of concrete instead of wood.
The stormtroopers who killed the Jawas carried all kinds on extra gear -including Tusken weapons and Banthas- to conceal their atrocities. Is it farfetched to think they had something they could set on fire and hurl into the main gallery of the Lars' home and that the fire could spread from there to the clothes, furniture and other items in the home -including the clothes Owen and Beru were wearing? Once that happens, the "wick effect" takes over.
The "wick effect" is a rare slow-burning phenomenon. You make it sound as if anytime a human being gets burned, he will inevitably burn down to the bones.
The "wick effect" can take several hours to completely consume the bones and destroys the skin, fat and flesh first. Since there is no sure way to tell how much time passed between the stormtroopers doing the deed and Luke's discovery of his family's corpses, it's a strong possibility.
Actually, the wick effect destroys the bones because it slow-burns the fat. It has to work very slowly, thus it is incompatible with throwing gasoline on someone and lighting him on fire that way. If we were to use your logic, almost all fire victims would be reduced to nothing.
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Post by The Yosemite Bear »

instead 90% of them don't even get burned, but have blackened faces, becase of the smoke that suffacated them.....
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Post by Elfdart »

Darth Wong wrote:
Elfdart wrote:Who says the troopers needed gasoline or napalm (I know I suggested the latter as a possibility.) or some other flammable liquid to burn the Lars homestead? Setting a house and/ or the items inside on fire isn't that difficult and doesn't require gasoline.
It's difficult when the house is made of concrete instead of wood.
The stormtroopers who killed the Jawas carried all kinds on extra gear -including Tusken weapons and Banthas- to conceal their atrocities. Is it farfetched to think they had something they could set on fire and hurl into the main gallery of the Lars' home and that the fire could spread from there to the clothes, furniture and other items in the home -including the clothes Owen and Beru were wearing? Once that happens, the "wick effect" takes over.
The "wick effect" is a rare slow-burning phenomenon. You make it sound as if anytime a human being gets burned, he will inevitably burn down to the bones.
The "wick effect" can take several hours to completely consume the bones and destroys the skin, fat and flesh first. Since there is no sure way to tell how much time passed between the stormtroopers doing the deed and Luke's discovery of his family's corpses, it's a strong possibility.
Actually, the wick effect destroys the bones because it slow-burns the fat. It has to work very slowly, thus it is incompatible with throwing gasoline on someone and lighting him on fire that way. If we were to use your logic, almost all fire victims would be reduced to nothing.
Why do you keep bringing up gasoline when it's not necessary to my assertion? Is this "gorilla dust" at work?

My theory for what killed Owen and Beru Lars and why their bodies were found the way they were:

1) The stormtroopers, after wringing information from the Jawas, approach the property.

2) Two possibilities come to mind: Owen and Beru realize right away that the troopers are there for droids linked to Obi-Wan Kenobi and flee inside their home OR Owen and Beru are questioned by the troopers and then try to flee when they realize what the troopers are after. The Larses might even fight them. Either way, they run into their home.

3) The stormtroopers open fire (explaining chunks of masonry and other debris scattered around the home when Luke returns), but Owen and Beru make it inside. The troopers notice the open gallery that leads to the house and do what soldiers have done from the beginning of time when they want to flush people out of a building: They set it on fire -either the building itself, or the furnishings and other items inside. An obvious choice would be some sort of incendiary grenade or bomb. If this sort of thing isn't standard-issue for Imperial forces, it's highly likely that they could improvise something to start a fire and throw it into the main gallery of the homestead.

4) The fire spreads to any number of flammable items in the home, the garage, the workshop and other parts of the homestead. Among the things that catch fire are the very clothes on the backs of Owen and Beru. They try to run up the stairs and out of the house, where the stormtroopers are waiting.

5) The troopers shoot Owen and Beru and leave them to smolder at the doorway of their home. The small fires (their clothes) smolder and feed off the fat in their bodies over the course of several hours. Since it can take several hours for the "wick effect" to consume an entire body (bones and all), and there's no exact time given for when Owen and Beru were killed, and it's not clear how long Luke was gone that day, Luke must have returned before the slow burn had destroyed their skeltons.

No gasoline.
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Post by Meest »

Elfdart wrote:Why do you keep bringing up gasoline when it's not necessary to my assertion? Is this "gorilla dust" at work?

My theory for what killed Owen and Beru Lars and why their bodies were found the way they were:

1) The stormtroopers, after wringing information from the Jawas, approach the property.

2) Two possibilities come to mind: Owen and Beru realize right away that the troopers are there for droids linked to Obi-Wan Kenobi and flee inside their home OR Owen and Beru are questioned by the troopers and then try to flee when they realize what the troopers are after. The Larses might even fight them. Either way, they run into their home.

3) The stormtroopers open fire (explaining chunks of masonry and other debris scattered around the home when Luke returns), but Owen and Beru make it inside. The troopers notice the open gallery that leads to the house and do what soldiers have done from the beginning of time when they want to flush people out of a building: They set it on fire -either the building itself, or the furnishings and other items inside. An obvious choice would be some sort of incendiary grenade or bomb. If this sort of thing isn't standard-issue for Imperial forces, it's highly likely that they could improvise something to start a fire and throw it into the main gallery of the homestead.

4) The fire spreads to any number of flammable items in the home, the garage, the workshop and other parts of the homestead. Among the things that catch fire are the very clothes on the backs of Owen and Beru. They try to run up the stairs and out of the house, where the stormtroopers are waiting.

5) The troopers shoot Owen and Beru and leave them to smolder at the doorway of their home. The small fires (their clothes) smolder and feed off the fat in their bodies over the course of several hours. Since it can take several hours for the "wick effect" to consume an entire body (bones and all), and there's no exact time given for when Owen and Beru were killed, and it's not clear how long Luke was gone that day, Luke must have returned before the slow burn had destroyed their skeltons.

No gasoline.
Still don't see how that is more likely than just blasters set to burn, less unnecessary explainations and assumptions.
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Post by Knife »

At the risk of helping Elfdart, :P , there was the oil for the hot oil bath in the garage. Maybe we are seeing oil based products from the homestead burning, at least what is giving off all that black smoke from the sand and concrete building.

Stormtrooper, AFAIK, are more efficient than anything. Blast the house, initentionally starting various flamables ablaze and securing the perimeter while all inside were killed by the flames and smoke.
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Post by Elfdart »

Meest, you would then have to explain how one of the skeletons is lying on top of the debris from the burning/ blasted house.
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Post by Elfdart »

Knife wrote:At the risk of helping Elfdart, :P , there was the oil for the hot oil bath in the garage. Maybe we are seeing oil based products from the homestead burning, at least what is giving off all that black smoke from the sand and concrete building.
Not to mention any landspeeder fuel the Lars family might have had for two speeders. Maybe blue milk is flammable, too. :P
Knife wrote:Stormtrooper, AFAIK, are more efficient than anything. Blast the house, initentionally starting various flamables ablaze and securing the perimeter while all inside were killed by the flames and smoke.
True to a point, but the bodies were outside the home when Luke found them. Either they went to the doorway and were killed, or were placed in those positions.
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Post by The Yosemite Bear »

Elfdart wrote:Meest, you would then have to explain how one of the skeletons is lying on top of the debris from the burning/ blasted house.
how about my Grandpa and Stepdad's war stories:

the male will instinctivly attempt to protect his mate despite how silly such defense would be
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Post by nightmare »

If there's a "burn" setting on blasters, shouldn't it explain the Death Star elevator door being burnt through as well? Just on higher setting than at the Lars moisture farm.
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Post by Kurgan »

On a side note:

In a way this discussion reminds me of the threads about the "exploding door" scene at the beginning of ANH.

I believe there too we had people arguing that this must be an example of the incredible power and versatility of the E-11 rifle. Due to the fact that we don't actually SEE in either case what tool does the deed in the final version of the film, we're left with that as an option.

Me, I don't have a problem admitting that the E-11's are very powerful and useful weapons, but I still don't rule out that the Stormies may carry other gear and purpose-built tools, rather than having E-11's be the same as the "jack-of-all-trades handgun" like the Trek Type-II phaser claims to be.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

It is a simple consequence of logic. The official blast radius and blast effects associated with thermal detonators (the only other standard-issue weapon the assaulting Stormtroopers possessed) do not match the scene in A New Hope. Therefore, it must have been the E-11 blaster carbine.
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Post by Howedar »

Elfdart wrote:3) The stormtroopers open fire (explaining chunks of masonry and other debris scattered around the home when Luke returns), but Owen and Beru make it inside. The troopers notice the open gallery that leads to the house and do what soldiers have done from the beginning of time when they want to flush people out of a building: They set it on fire -either the building itself, or the furnishings and other items inside.
THE HOUSE IS FUCKING CONCRETE.
An obvious choice would be some sort of incendiary grenade or bomb. If this sort of thing isn't standard-issue for Imperial forces, it's highly likely that they could improvise something to start a fire and throw it into the main gallery of the homestead.
Ah, gasoline.
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Post by Kurgan »

It is a simple consequence of logic. The official blast radius and blast effects associated with thermal detonators (the only other standard-issue weapon the assaulting Stormtroopers possessed) do not match the scene in A New Hope. Therefore, it must have been the E-11 blaster carbine.
Of the bar-shaped TD's?

Also I'd point out these Stormies are carrying far more than your standard issue equipment.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

I was addressing your side-note.
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