Caseless ammuition
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- jaeger115
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Caseless ammuition
How does it work? By electromagnetic rails or something else? I'm researching it for my military sci-fi novel.
And is it even practical for combat?
And is it even practical for combat?
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It's got all the parts of a regular cartrigde primer, bullet, propellant, just without any casing, hence caseless. The propellant is held together with some sort of binding agent, and I'm not sure what they use for a primer(or even what happens to it after the round is fired).
Interestingly enough, guns that fire caseless ammo have some problems with over heating, as it seems the ejected brass from standard weapons actually removes a lot of the heat with it.
Interestingly enough, guns that fire caseless ammo have some problems with over heating, as it seems the ejected brass from standard weapons actually removes a lot of the heat with it.
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In other words, a caseless ammo gun would need a water-cooled barrel?Korvan wrote:It's got all the parts of a regular cartrigde primer, bullet, propellant, just without any casing, hence caseless. The propellant is held together with some sort of binding agent, and I'm not sure what they use for a primer(or even what happens to it after the round is fired).
Interestingly enough, guns that fire caseless ammo have some problems with over heating, as it seems the ejected brass from standard weapons actually removes a lot of the heat with it.
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No I don't think so, air cooled like most guns. You might find this info on the Heckler and Koch G11 caseless rifle useful.jaeger115 wrote: In other words, a caseless ammo gun would need a water-cooled barrel?
As an added question why would caseless ammo be an improvement?
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And any drawbacks? Range? Accuracy? Penetrating power?Hobot wrote:It saves a lot of weight.aten_vs_ra wrote: As an added question why would caseless ammo be an improvement?
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I'm not sure, at the moment I think cost is a major issue.jaeger115 wrote:And any drawbacks? Range? Accuracy? Penetrating power?Hobot wrote:It saves a lot of weight.aten_vs_ra wrote: As an added question why would caseless ammo be an improvement?
Another advantage is that it can be fired at a faster rate than conventional bulllets.
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No, the barrel heats up no worse then a gun using conventional cartridges. What overheats rapidly is the firing chamber, to the point that the gun will quickly begin to cook off its ammunition and will become impossible to control until it runs out of ammunition. The German designers who worked on the G11 partly solved the problem by switching to a new propellant with a higher cook off temperature but even that will only go so far. The fact that the rifle fired a weak as shit bullet extremely quickly wouldn't help things. This issue combine with the high cost and poor storability of caseless ammunition has killed caseless ammunition for infantry weapons. There are also concerns with how well the breech seals on such guns, normally its sealed by the cartridge case expanding under the explosion of the propellant. Simply having a well made bolt and firing chamber can give a pretty good seal, but that precision fit won't last under years of hard service.jaeger115 wrote: In other words, a caseless ammo gun would need a water-cooled barrel?
The general conscience is that caseless ammunition isn't worthwhile. The reduced reliability isn't work the weight cut, research continues into new ammunition using materials lighter then brass for the cartridge cases. The high rates of fire caseless ammunition can enable also aren't worthwhile, you can only use those 2000rpm+ rates of fire to shoot off short bursts of low caliber bullets and such bullets have horrible stopping power. The 4.7mm round fired by the G11 would have been great for killing body armor clad Soviet infantry but against say Somali militia you'd see anyone carrying one throwing it down to pickup an AK-47.
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Wouldn't this also make it a bitch to reload the clips by hand? And how big a problem is the weight of ammo, really?Korvan wrote:It's got all the parts of a regular cartrigde primer, bullet, propellant, just without any casing, hence caseless. The propellant is held together with some sort of binding agent, and I'm not sure what they use for a primer(or even what happens to it after the round is fired).
Interestingly enough, guns that fire caseless ammo have some problems with over heating, as it seems the ejected brass from standard weapons actually removes a lot of the heat with it.
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Why, exactly, should the lack of a case have any effect one way or the other on the ease of reloading?aten_vs_ra wrote: Wouldn't this also make it a bitch to reload the clips by hand?
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Sorry, I was under a misconception about the structure of caseless ammo.Batman wrote:Why, exactly, should the lack of a case have any effect one way or the other on the ease of reloading?aten_vs_ra wrote: Wouldn't this also make it a bitch to reload the clips by hand?
G11 caseless ammo
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Ammo is fairly heavy, a 30 round clip will add a pound to the weight of an M16. Soldiers have to carry a number of clips in reserve (I think it's something like 210 rounds) so it adds up. Anything you can do to reduce the weight of ammo will help out a soldier carrying pounds of additional gear.aten_vs_ra wrote: Wouldn't this also make it a bitch to reload the clips by hand? And how big a problem is the weight of ammo, really?
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A typical ammunition load for a western solider is 210-300 rounds in 7-10 magazines, through soldiers are often carrying additional lose ammunition to reload into those magazines and in the US and many other armies each will also have a 200 round box of linked 5.56mm rounds for the fire team or squad machine gunner, the guy might also be called upon to carry 7.62mm ammo or a mortar bomb. Not to mention such things as claymores, grenades, and plastic explosives.Hobot wrote:
Ammo is fairly heavy, a 30 round clip will add a pound to the weight of an M16. Soldiers have to carry a number of clips in reserve (I think it's something like 210 rounds) so it adds up. Anything you can do to reduce the weight of ammo will help out a soldier carrying pounds of additional gear.
You'll sometimes find soldiers with much more or somewhat less then that range though, in Vietnam twenty 20 round magazines of 5.56 for a total of 400 rounds was generally considered to be the minimal load for a patrol, plus an 100 round belt of 7.62mm for the machine gunners. Even then a guy with 600 rounds of 5.56mm on him wasn't unusual. When your gun can empty its magazine in seconds, even on burst or single shot, ammunition gets expended very quickly.
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Since you don't need an ejetion port for the empty cases, shouldn't it be easier to waterproof the rifle? That could make it a great weapon for amphibian assault teams.
And wouldn't the lack of a casing reduce the risk of jamming?
And wouldn't the lack of a casing reduce the risk of jamming?
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That is true, but for the reasons stated above, this advantage is still not enough to compensate for the downfalls.GySgt. Hartman wrote:Since you don't need an ejetion port for the empty cases, shouldn't it be easier to waterproof the rifle? That could make it a great weapon for amphibian assault teams.
And wouldn't the lack of a casing reduce the risk of jamming?
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Is there a technical upper limit to the caliber of caseless ammo? Is the stopping power really that bad, even if you use AP ammo? Because for the reasons above, it might be a good weapon for special ops, where you can afford a somewhat higher maintenance effort.
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Eventually the propellant block wouldn't be able to take the stress of holding its self together, I have no idea when that happens but it probably wouldn't be an issue with anything rifle caliber.GySgt. Hartman wrote:Is there a technical upper limit to the caliber of caseless ammo?
You really need to learn the basics. Armor piercing ammunition radically reduces stopping power, as it causes the bullet to sail clear through the target without delivering its energy, you want ball ammunition to stop things, and ideally you'd use soft points or hollow points though both are illegal under current military law. Low stopping power isn't an inherent weakness of caseless ammunition, but it is an inherent weakness of the G11 rifle, which fires a bullet that is only 4.7mm.Is the stopping power really that bad, even if you use AP ammo?
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I really doubt there would be any gain in that respect.GySgt. Hartman wrote:Since you don't need an ejetion port for the empty cases, shouldn't it be easier to waterproof the rifle?
That could make it a great weapon for amphibian assault teams.
And wouldn't the lack of a casing reduce the risk of jamming?
I would expect so, provided that your ammunition doesn't get badly smashed around, a solid block of propellant with a bullet buried in it can't be all that shock resistant. The lack of an ejection port also make me wonder what your suppose to do if a bullet is a dud and misfires?
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IIRC, caseless ammo also tends to be a bit more susceptible to weather damage (humidity, sand, etc), since it doesn't have the protection of the case.
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The lack of an ejection port is supposed to mean a simpler, easier to field strip firing mechanism. Not that thats that much of a consolation...Sea Skimmer wrote:GySgt. Hartman wrote: That could make it a great weapon for amphibian assault teams.
And wouldn't the lack of a casing reduce the risk of jamming?
I would expect so, provided that your ammunition doesn't get badly smashed around, a solid block of propellant with a bullet buried in it can't be all that shock resistant. The lack of an ejection port also make me wonder what your suppose to do if a bullet is a dud and misfires?
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Wouldn't you need an ejection port on a rifle firing caseless ammo to clear dud rounds or other missfires and blockages? It would kinda suck to have to disasemble your rifle instead of just pulling the cocking handle.
IIRC the G11 does have an opening in the underside of the rifle, beneath the rotating firing chamber.
IIRC the G11 does have an opening in the underside of the rifle, beneath the rotating firing chamber.
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That's another point against them which was brought up before. Best to have a gun that can fire normal ammo and caseless, that way you have the ejection port still for clearing blockages.Sir Sirius wrote:Wouldn't you need an ejection port on a rifle firing caseless ammo to clear dud rounds or other missfires and blockages? It would kinda suck to have to disasemble your rifle instead of just pulling the cocking handle.
IIRC the G11 does have an opening in the underside of the rifle, beneath the rotating firing chamber.
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Would even that be possible? I can picture it being easier to manufacture only one type of ammunition as opposed to two.Admiral Valdemar wrote:That's another point against them which was brought up before. Best to have a gun that can fire normal ammo and caseless, that way you have the ejection port still for clearing blockages.Sir Sirius wrote:Wouldn't you need an ejection port on a rifle firing caseless ammo to clear dud rounds or other missfires and blockages? It would kinda suck to have to disasemble your rifle instead of just pulling the cocking handle.
IIRC the G11 does have an opening in the underside of the rifle, beneath the rotating firing chamber.
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But practiacally the only reliability benifit of caseless is that it doesn't have an ejector port for dirt/sand/dust/water/crap to get in.Admiral Valdemar wrote:That's another point against them which was brought up before. Best to have a gun that can fire normal ammo and caseless, that way you have the ejection port still for clearing blockages.
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