Iran's nuke program

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Axis Kast
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Post by Axis Kast »

quote]
No I believe that they should be punished for their support of terrorism against all[/] countries. Personally I think the USA needs to understand that they are not the only country on the planet that matters.

[/quote]

Red herring. You’re avoiding the problem. Specifically, you admit that Iran is a state sponsor of terrorism, but insist that we should not intervene to prevent them from acquiring some of the most powerful weaponry known to man – because that’s the kind of gentlemanly play you’d prefer the whole world stood by. This is absolutely fucking insane. Akin to admitting a criminal should be jailed, but insisting he not be disarmed because it would be somehow unfair if only the police had guns.


Well you don't know untill you try it, perhaps they would work with Iran. Or perhaps not, it's an option that needs to be explored.



No, I’m sorry. We’ve had our fill of attempting to bribe maniacal Third World leadership and their corruption-ridden governments into compliance with often-unverifiable standards. The “security through faith” experiments failed; we need not resurrect them, because Iran and North Korea are similar enough that the results of the one can suggest with virtually perfect clarity what will happen elsewhere – not to mention having already invalidated the whole scheme by providing proof that the results of a failure render the entire strategy dangerously unwise anyway.


If your wrong then your beloved nation would have started another illegal and unjust war. They would possibly start a civil war in Iran, at the very least the USA would be fighting more insurgents. You know if you'd ever served in the military, you'd know that war is a horrible thing, and not to be embarked upon lightly.


No war against Iran would be “illegal and unjust.” Like Osama bin Laden immediately after September 11th, the Iranian government is already guilty of crimes worthy of war – even before one factors in the issues of the World Trade Center bombings or the current refusal to extradite terrorists.


This looks to me like the USA really is embarking on a crusade against Islam, and Islamic nations. If everyone else is willing to let Iran develop nuclear weapons than maybe the USA should allow it. It's not like Iran can attack the USA directly with them. And their nation would be destroyed if they gave them to terrorists.



I’m sorry it looks like that to you; it’s not the case. We’re simply embarking on an effort to castrate violent Islamic militants. Strangely enough, we find them in Islamic nations – virtually all of which have shitty governments with anti-American agendas.

And you’ll have to excuse me if I don’t give a shit what the rest of the world wants to do in Iran. I’m concerned with the security of the United States. Just because it’s “the rest of the world” doesn’t automatically validate the opinion.

The USA doesn't have the right to determine these things. That's what the UN is for, to prevent another nation from attacking a nation without the worlds approval.



Rights don’t exist, and the U.N. is a piece of trash. It’s nice because of the potential for coordinated activity in the case of mutual agreement, or to push limited humanitarian and peacekeeping efforts in non-essential areas devoid of flashpoints. It’s worthless from every other point of view.

So then the USA should revoke Israel's, India'a, and Pakistans rights to their weapons? After all they were developed with out US approval.


We can’t.

Frankly, Lord MJ and Illuminatus took care of everything already.


I said that they're universal and inherent, not that respecting them is.


Not really, no. Some people think they should be respected worldwide, and that they should be considered a guarantee for all people. Not to mention that, in this case, respect for rights is the starting point for their existence altogether. And the fact that some do not respect these “rights” in fact proves that they are not a universal concept.


You and your fucking realpolitik. Bismarck wouldn't have thought it was such a good idea if he'd been able to see what it led to in the end. Compromise and mutual benefits are generally more desirable than wars, death, destruction, and generations of bad blood on both side. (Note the "generally" I put in there; extreme cases require action, I know. I don't want you accusing me of Neville Chamberlain levels of complaisance.)


And the Draikaiserbund was about preventing the outbreak of massive war. Realpolitik, however much you may wish to believe differently, isn’t a political theory designed to meet the end result of war. It simply accepts that war is likely to occur between nations, and attempts to reduce one’s own potential disadvantages should it arise.

Frankly, you’re an absolutely blind fanatic if you actually think compromise and mutually-beneficial agreement are somehow prevented or even eschewed as a matter of course by those practicing realpolitik.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Cpl Kendall wrote:
Forgive if I don't really take that seriously since you were a Canadian officer. Did you participate in a foriegn theatre or as a UN Peacekeeper? Perhaps I'll change my mind there.
How does me being a Canadian NCO make my views less valid? Actually I was seriously injured before I could go anywhere. I still spent 6 years training for war, and watching colleagues coming home in body bags. Even training for war you get the idea of how unpleasent it is.
Excuse me, when one wants to wax-poetic over how terrible the world in general is, I'm expecting a Ugandan militiaman or something.

Besides, this is the appeal to emotion and I have a whole rest of a post to reply to.
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Post by Lord MJ »

It should be noted that in Realism or realpolitik war is considered an undesirable outcome which should be avoided.

It does say however that wars will occur, and are necessary at times in order to satisfy a state's national interests.
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Post by Aaron »

Axis Kast and IP, I conceed. You guys are right. There's no shame in being beaten by people who are obviously better at this than me. :D
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Axis Kast
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Post by Axis Kast »

Well, that's a change of pace ... :shock:
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Post by Aaron »

Perhaps you guys could explain to me what a "red herring" and "appeal to authority" mean. Thanks :)
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Post by Andrew J. »

Axis Kast wrote:And the Draikaiserbund was about preventing the outbreak of massive war. Realpolitik, however much you may wish to believe differently, isn’t a political theory designed to meet the end result of war. It simply accepts that war is likely to occur between nations, and attempts to reduce one’s own potential disadvantages should it arise.
Instead of reducing the actual threat war, you mean? I personally think nations should do both, but doing too much of one limits your ability to do the other.
Frankly, you’re an absolutely blind fanatic if you actually think compromise and mutually-beneficial agreement are somehow prevented or even eschewed as a matter of course by those practicing realpolitik.


I thought you said politics was a zero-sum game according to realpolitik. By definition, that means the benefit of one is to the detriment of the other(s).
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Post by Ma Deuce »

Cpl Kendall wrote:Perhaps you guys could explain to me what a "red herring" and "appeal to authority" mean. Thanks :)
Here is the "Logical Fallicies in Debating" thread in the Announcements forum. You will find the answers to your questions there.
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Post by tharkûn »

Which of these parties haven’t been part of governments that have prosecuted wars of aggression and supported the illegal settlement of the occupied territories?
Oh whatever, you do realise that both Labour and Tory governments of the UK at one time supported wars of agression and settlement. Does that mean the current government is fundementalist? If we applied your criteria for "fundementalist" governments, half of Europe would be fundy and definately the US. Further since when do fundementalists have a monopoly on illegal settlement and aggressive wars? There are any number of reasons to be expansionist besides being fundies particularly:
Strategic concerns
Paranoia
Electoral concerns
Concessions to political bedfellows
Which of these parties are calling for withdrawal of the settlers and an end to the occupation?
Likud, Labour, and Shinui :roll: Did you miss the fact that Sharon is sacking cabinet members to effect this? Quite frikken literally Sharon is dismantling the current government in order to remove settlers from Gaza.
Basically which of these parties isn’t Zionist?
Depends on one's definition of Zionism. Shinui rejects a Halachic state categorically and wants Israel to be "Jewish" about as much as England is "Christian" or "British". Labour has been trying for years to pullout, and under their last government Israel unilaterally withdrew from Lebanon.
Likud is the author of the current plan to pull out of Gaza and is currently reforming the government for this purpose; further it was a Likud government who returned the Sinai and dismantled the settlements there.

None of these parties are hardcore expansionists. Only Shinui has never taken contractionary measures; and mainly because this is their FIRST time in the government. Thus far they support withdrawal as well. The truth is all of the major Isreali parties (even suprisingly Shas) are willing to withdraw ... if and only if they beleive that such a withdrawal will result in a more secure situation for Israel and the government won't be toppled as result.

Withdraw from Gaza and ANNEX half of the West Bank instead after cleansing it of its current Palestinian inhabitants his plan is expansionist and Zionist.
Half? BS. The proposed annexations are going to encompass several hundred thousand Israelis because it is point blank impossible to remove them. Cleansing the inhabitants, every plan or speculation I've read is that the Palestinians within the borders will be given the offer of Israeli citizenship, just like was done when Jerusalem was annexed.

[quoteThe term fundamentalist has traditionally been used to describe people of a religious persuasion it’s true, I prefer to broaden it slightly and apply it to those who unbendingly stick to an ideology regardless of whether the ideology in question is religious or secular. I know Zionism is a secular movement so is communism, what term other than fundamentalist would you use to describe a communist zealot? [/quote]
How about "communist zealot" :roll: ?

Perhaps you might try an "ardent ideologue" or "uncompromising ideologue".

Look in Israeli politics there are REAL fundementalists (i.e. Shas) and it is DAMN confusing when somebody pulls their own personal definition out of their ass. Israel has communist zealots, real fundementalists, and several other ideologues all in the political spectrum. Shas are fundies, Likud are not (generally speaking).
More land maybe?
And what in hell is that worth? Israel already signed away the Sinai (61,000 square km compared to the 21,000 square km within the green line) and withdrew from Lebannon as well. They have treaties, upheld by the US who regularly pays off both Egypt and Israel for playing nice, with Egypt and Jordan. So the only route left for expansion is to take Syria, which is worthless land (except from a strategic point of view) and the expense of taking it outweighs any possible gains. From an indoubtable resistance movement to possible international sanctions to the loss of hefty US aid ... Israel cannot possibly afford to pursue expansionist war.
Israel is unlikely to start any more wars in the short term but given it’s track record the neighbouring nations have every reason to desire a deterent. Imagine for a second that you are a Syrian (aside from being concerned about your appallingly repressive government and crappy economic situation) would you feel confident having Israel as a neighbour?
Very. My government has offered Israel over 100 valid causus bellis under international law and the worst Israel did was take the Golan. During Yom Kippur, when Israel had the oppurtunity to obliterate Damascus, they didn't. Despite government support for anti-Israel terrorism, the worst has been a pitiful few number of airstrikes and special forces raids in recent years.

I'd be a damn sight more scared of the US (hell I'd be more scared of my own government) than Israel. Israel will never be able to instigate a war without massive provocation because they can't afford Europe or the US to take economic sanctions.

And taking into account my "appallingly repressive government and crappy economic situation" I'd want to be conqueored by Israel. I'd enjoy the vastly increased freedoms and standard of living that Palestinians have enjoyed under Israel when they aren't in revolt.
When did I say Iran wants to threaten the US? I said Iran wanted a deterrent so safeguard it’s territorial integrity. Take another look at the history of the Islamic Republic of Iran and the US’s history, after deposing the US’s puppet fascist dictator the current Iranian regime has been subjected constant diplomatic aggression, economic sanctions and Sadam’s pointless and brutal US supported war, in return the Iranians have empty rhetoric just who has been the aggressor in this relationship, who is threatening whom? Iran’s main concern is survival it is the US which wants to dominate.
Then why do they actively sponsor terrorism? The single most LIKELY reason why the US would threaten their survival is sponsorship of terrorism. The only thing that stops the US from decimating Iran is the fact that it doesn't want to pay the cost. If their primary concern is to survive; why in hell have they deliberately provoked the US and her allies?
What exactly do you think Iran is going to try and do to the US? What military options are they going to pursue? The mullahs aren’t idiots they aren’t going to pick any fights with the US but they do want the capacity to defend them selves.
I don't think they will do a damn think against the US, directly. Armenia, Azerbaijan, etc. I'm not so sure about. Likewise it is quite likely that Iranian sponsored groups in Afghanistan and Iraq as well as elsewhere could stir up trouble. Giving the Iranians military options like this is a bad thing considering their government is filled with religious fundementalists.
Which is why the US did so much to stop them getting it?
Real Politik. At the time you might recall that the Arab states were part of the Soviet bloc and the US wanted friends in the area (Israel, Turkey, Iran) and put up with loads of crap for it.
Wrong when Pakistan and India both got the bomb their potential for action massively decreased, ever heard of the concept of M.A.D? it’s what stopped WW3 and it is a major factor that stopping them from going to war over Kashmir.
Thank you captain obvious. The key here is MUTUAL. Currently Iran can do squat to the US, whatever the US wants do militarily ... Iran can do nothing to stop. If Iran takes military action against Azerbaijan, the US has military options (like bombing Tehran).

Going from being America's bitch, militarily, to having no bilateral military options is an IMPROVEMENT for Iran. Going from having extremely limited military options in the region, to being able to ward off the US with MAD is an improvement.

Hell look at India, yes they've lost military options vis a vis Pakistan, but they have gained them with respect to China and other states in the region.
Why is it a bad thing that the US can no longer bomb Pakistan or India with impunity?
Yes. I trust the US government and the US people far more than whomever is atop of the current Pakistani power structure. The worst thing the Americans do is bring capitalism to the world and aren't too particular about how they do it. The worst thing Pakistanis do is start bloodbaths over trivial territory and export Islamic fundementalism. The lesser of evils here is definately the US being able to bomb Pakistan back to the stone age.

The fact Sharon is PM is quite a good indicator of this.
Whatever. Sharon is proposing the most radical contraction of Israeli presence since Camp David. Sharon is a hawk and nationalist, not to mention a political whore ... he does not support the "greater Israel"; if working against the zealous zionists furthers his goal he will do it in a heartbeat.
Erm lets see the 47-49 war where they seized most of Palestine, the 67 war, the 78 and 82 invasion of Lebanon, no doubt you’ll disagree about my interpretation of these wars I think we’ll just have to agree to differ on this issue or we’ll break the embargo. My point is that Israel’s near neighbours have every reason to feel insecure and to want to safe guard their territory with nuclear weapons, I’m not saying that Israel doesn’t have a similar right just Arabs do as well.
47-49 is BS. The Arab league were the clear agressors trying to drive the Jews into the sea; the fact that they got their asses kicked and lost territory does not make them the agressors ... just like Austria-Hungary was the agressor in WWI.

67, 78, and 82 a case, if one I deem to be retarded, can made for those being aggressive, but 47-49 is complete BS.
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Post by Axis Kast »

Instead of reducing the actual threat war, you mean? I personally think nations should do both, but doing too much of one limits your ability to do the other.
Reducing the threat of war can be accomplished by raising the cost for aggressors. To constrain one’s enemies is to reduce the threat of war. Keep in mind that even multilateral bodies designed to defuse conflicts do so by promising military intervention – that is, in other words, violent compellation – if their demands are not met.

I thought you said politics was a zero-sum game according to realpolitik. By definition, that means the benefit of one is to the detriment of the other(s).
Ever heard of the term, “The worst of two evils?” Sometimes, not accepting the short end of the stick can be less detrimental – and therefore more attractive – than refusing to accept any end at all.

Realpolitik cautions its practitioners to keep the manipulative nature of all negotiation in mind; it does not dictate that one is an island in oneself.
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Post by Plekhanov »

Axis Kast wrote:
Israel is unlikely to start any more wars in the short term but given it’s track record the neighbouring nations have every reason to desire a deterent. Imagine for a second that you are a Syrian (aside from being concerned about your appallingly repressive government and crappy economic situation) would you feel confident having Israel as a neighbour?
Israel is unlikely to start any more wars, period. Not only are their military and economic infrastructures stretched virtually to the limit coping with Palestinian uprisings alone, but the acquisition of new territory would be an unquestionable liability.

I’m not saying that Israel is going to start any more wars but that it’s understandable if it’s near neighbours fear that it might and try to take steps to protect themselves. Look at how terrified the western world is just because of a few terrorists who are able to pull off spectacular atrocities and nothing more and look at the great lengths we a going to counter this threat. In comparison to the threat posed by Al Qiada the threat Israel poses to it’s neighbours is monumental and you can’t blame them for taking precautions.
There’s a reason Tel Aviv declined to keep even such an attractive buffer as the Suez Zone, mind you.
You mean like the strategic benefits of dividing the Arab world, keeping the status of Palestine off the agenda and not overly pissing off US which really wanted a deal? Any way much of the Sinai remains demilitarized so it still acts as a buffer.
As for wearing Syrian shoes? No, thanks.

What you can’t even step out side your incredibly narrow world view for a second? Do you not realise that it exactly this refusal to consider any point of view other than your own that fuels much “anti-americanism”?
Syria lost the chance for sympathy when they began supporting terrorist movements oriented against the United States.
And maybe in the eye’s of the Arabs the US lost any chance of sympathy when it sponsored perpetrators of state terrorism such as Israel and the Shah
You’ll understand if I’m disinclined to take their sovereignty into account in matters of regional security and weapons procurement.
I understand that you seem to think only US who have no business being in the fucking region and Israel have sovereign rights in the middle east.
Iran supports terrorism. In no uncertain terms, they are currently doing nothing to stop the activities of al-Qaeda groups within their borders – including the murderers of Nicholas Berg. Are you so far gone that you fail to understand that a nuclear Iran would be beyond reproach for future aggression?
Oh please you go from lecturing me about how unlikely Israeli aggression is despite their local superpower status and proven track record and then try to claim that Iran is going to pick a fight with someone, the Iranian leadership is far too concerned about its precarious international position and it’s domestic problems for any “aggression”.
Or that it’s not inconceivable that that country, possessing a very mercenary atomic energy program as is, might “leak” scientists or information to Third Parties? Pakistan’s a shining example of just how bad things could get in Iran. Why the fuck should we worry about whether we’re stepping on a state sponsor of terrorism?
Because Britain and the US’s not giving a fuck about Iranians and imposing the Shah upon them is the reason why they hate us and the reason why they support terroists, if we stop trying to fuck them over they aren’t going to come looking for a fight
What exactly do you think Iran is going to try and do to the US? What military options are they going to pursue? The mullahs aren’t idiots they aren’t going to pick any fights with the US but they do want the capacity to defend them selves.
These are the same questions we could have asked of Afghanistan’s government before September 11, 2001.
Ok when in doubt start chanting 9.11, I know this is difficult for you to comprehend but just because Iran is led by clerics doesn’t mean they’re the same as the Taliban or will make the same mistakes. Sure they’re fundamentalists but they’re not out there like the Taliban, in many ways Iran is more liberal than Saudi, the Mullahs don’t want to kick off WW3 they want to be left alone to repress their population in peace
And that’s beside the fact that the nature of Iran’s program, saturated as it is with foreign personnel, has the potential to spring unintentional leaks.
Leaks maybe but not bombs those will be well guarded and kept well away from terroists, and leaks are of no use without the resources to use the information.
Successful Israeli espionage doesn’t necessarily equal mindless American collusion.
What steps did the US take to dissuade Israel? It turned a blind eye to Israel’s procurement and continued to provide massive amounts of economic and military aid and diplomatic backup. They may have well as colluded,
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Post by Axis Kast »


I’m not saying that Israel is going to start any more wars but that it’s understandable if it’s near neighbours fear that it might and try to take steps to protect themselves. Look at how terrified the western world is just because of a few terrorists who are able to pull off spectacular atrocities and nothing more and look at the great lengths we a going to counter this threat. In comparison to the threat posed by Al Qiada the threat Israel poses to it’s neighbours is monumental and you can’t blame them for taking precautions.
Blame them? No. Not at all. In fact, I agree that Syrian motives are perfectly in consonance with what the strategic situation dictates. But then, as an American, I’m not looking out for Syria’s security, now am I?
You mean like the strategic benefits of dividing the Arab world, keeping the status of Palestine off the agenda and not overly pissing off US which really wanted a deal? Any way much of the Sinai remains demilitarized so it still acts as a buffer.
Israel knows better than perhaps any other nation: the value of Arab commitments to peace and goodwill is highly suspect. They have every reason to suspect that the Suez will one day remilitarize. Not to mention that when in 1982 they actually negotiated the withdrawal, the possibility that the Arabs would break their word loomed large in Israeli minds. Regardless of the positive diplomatic aspects of the turnover, Tel Aviv bargained a very sizeable barrier to the Israeli nation’s underbelly.
What you can’t even step out side your incredibly narrow world view for a second? Do you not realise that it exactly this refusal to consider any point of view other than your own that fuels much “anti-americanism”?
Of course I understand that Syrians feel as if the United States has side-lined them. On the other hand, they also sponsor terrorists. Permitting them a nuclear weapon would be foolhardy, no matter the bitter emotion American intervention would doubtless invoke. And nobody’s saying that that isn’t the Catch 22 of everything we do in the Middle East; even humanitarian efforts and limited police actions inspire feelings of emasculation and powerlessness that lead people to admire terrorists. Look at Saudi Arabia. Most Saudis acknowledge that they admire American achievements and detest Osama’s tactics – but his message provides uplift in the eyes of many. We cannot look to change that by letting any of our enemies develop nuclear weapons, however. They would see it as an American failing rather than a generous allowance.
And maybe in the eye’s of the Arabs the US lost any chance of sympathy when it sponsored perpetrators of state terrorism such as Israel and the Shah
And yet we cannot change that now. For whatever reason, we have made enemies in the Arab world whom it would not do to empower by allowing their acquisition or pursuit of fission to go unchallenged.

Oh please you go from lecturing me about how unlikely Israeli aggression is despite their local superpower status and proven track record and then try to claim that Iran is going to pick a fight with someone, the Iranian leadership is far too concerned about its precarious international position and it’s domestic problems for any “aggression”
Which is why they went to such trouble to instigate trouble in Iraq and plant a man like Chalabi, hm? It’s clear that despite their internal struggles, the Iranian government has one eye firmly fixed on American interests in the Persian Gulf – and it’s certainly not a friendly appraisal.

Not to mention that Israel’s local superpower is derived as much from their unconventional arsenal and Arab toothlessness at this point in time, as the IDF’s regular strike capabilities themselves. They have their hands full dealing with internal strife as is. As for their “proven track record,” they’ve never instigated land grabs without (A) first having been the target of attempts at annihilation or (B) being drawn into preemptive activity as a last resort. Even ’54 was after constant Egyptian threats.

Your constant emotional vomiting about Israeli evil blinds you to the fact that future “aggression” would be absolutely stupid. They left Lebannon for a reason. Regardless of whether you think Israel’s attempt to provide buffers against its own annihilation are not justified, it’s not something Israeli commanders are likely to have on their plate anyway.

Because Britain and the US’s not giving a fuck about Iranians and imposing the Shah upon them is the reason why they hate us and the reason why they support terroists, if we stop trying to fuck them over they aren’t going to come looking for a fight
Bullshit. It’s too late for that now. Hardliners are still in power – and I’m not about to bank that they’ll recognize a sign of goodwill when they’ve been enthusiastically bankrolling terrorists for the past twenty years. The United States blundered badly – but understandably, since it seemed such a positive idea at the time – with the Shah, but your demands for penance are self-defeating. We’ve reached a point when apologies and reconciliation must come second to hard-nosed security dilemmas.

Ok when in doubt start chanting 9.11, I know this is difficult for you to comprehend but just because Iran is led by clerics doesn’t mean they’re the same as the Taliban or will make the same mistakes. Sure they’re fundamentalists but they’re not out there like the Taliban, in many ways Iran is more liberal than Saudi, the Mullahs don’t want to kick off WW3 they want to be left alone to repress their population in peace
They sure as hell wanted to involve us in a guerilla war in Iraq. And your insistence that these are rational, calculating men is rather frustrated by the fact that they’ve been confirmed to be helping al-Qaeda – which could have earned them an air strike or two long before today.
Leaks maybe but not bombs those will be well guarded and kept well away from terroists, and leaks are of no use without the resources to use the information.
Resources such as former Soviet scientists? The Iranians can’t be expected to seal every loose end: shoot or intimidate too many Russians, and the others won’t come to work for you down the road.

What steps did the US take to dissuade Israel? It turned a blind eye to Israel’s procurement and continued to provide massive amounts of economic and military aid and diplomatic backup. They may have well as colluded,
At a time when Israel was slamming Soviet allies in the Arab world and proving conclusively that Moscow wasn’t the best of possible friends.

Just because Israel was successful doesn’t mean security measures weren’t in place. That’s the stupidest assumption I’ve ever heard. “Well, if the Israelis got through, that must mean we let them!” Bullshit. There were security measures in place, and they were broken. The Soviets stole mountains of information during the Cold War. The Chinese did it even after. Does that mean we facilitated that, too? Maybe we paid them to do it. Maybe Fox Mudler will come out my ass.

It's time to wake up: the world is a scary, nasty place, and goodwill won't get you very far with so much bad blood under the bridge.
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Post by MKSheppard »

Can we just split this bullshit to HOS? We've already proven that
Mr Kast never contributes anything of use to this board, other than
the same old tired bullshit vomited forth in slightly different forms.
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Post by Plekhanov »

Well I’ve seen the wisdom of your warnings Shep and am done attempting to discuss anything with him and will try to refrain from responding to him in the future, but I’m still in a live discussion with Tharkun so I’d like to keep the thread going.
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Post by Axis Kast »

You want to deny the truth of what I said, Sheppard?

Go right ahead. If not, shut your fucking mouth.

Hell, did you even read this thread before going off about how, "Kast contributes nothing," this, or, "I think we should all ignore Kast" that? My original opponent ceeded the point. I won the fucking debate, you moron. My views were accepted and supported by others who actually had an interest in the topic. Rather than, say, someone like yourself, who apparently needs to feel big and important by flinging random accusations in threads they previously abandoned.
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Plekhanov
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Post by Plekhanov »

When you say “I won the fucking debate, you moron” do you mean “I my bored everybody else stupid with my continual refusal to step outside your own unbelievably blinkered world view even for a second”? if so you’re right.
Axis Kast
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Post by Axis Kast »

Try Kendall's concession, idiot.

Or your refusal to continue the debate. I'm not the one refusing anything here; you look like the one who tried to find a way out from where I'm standing. If you think otherwise, let's hear why. Really. I'd love to hear the justification behind your analysis that permitting Iran to pursue nuclear weapons will be interpreted as a motion of goodwill on America's part and lead to a reduction of tensions and a lessened security dilemma for us. Not to mention anything remotely balanced on the topic of Israel. But then, that's hoping for too much, isn't it?
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Illuminatus Primus
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

You want to issue those remarks at me too? Am I an Axis clone? :roll:
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"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.

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Aaron
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Post by Aaron »

Axis Kast wrote: Which is why they went to such trouble to instigate trouble in Iraq and plant a man like Chalabi, hm? It’s clear that despite their internal struggles, the Iranian government has one eye firmly fixed on American interests in the Persian Gulf – and it’s certainly not a friendly appraisal.
Axis, I don't want to reopen the debate, but is there any proof that Chalabi is an Iranian plant?
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Axis Kast
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Post by Axis Kast »

Unfortunately, Illuminatus, when it comes to matters of national security politics, it seems logic - or the balls to admit that you actually agree with something that isn't grounded in the idea that everyone lives together in one big group hug - is in short supply.

Here's to you, though. 8)
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Post by Axis Kast »

Axis, I don't want to reopen the debate, but is there any proof that Chalabi is an Iranian plant?
Certainly.

http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe ... labi.ap%2F
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Aaron
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Post by Aaron »

Axis Kast wrote: Certainly.
Thanks :)
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